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Thread: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Thoughts;
    Danny keeps hitting clutch shots only to have someone else hit a bigger one.

    Butler was on fire and Danny should have been put on him a couple shots earlier.

    I'd say the fat lady just started singing.

    I hate games like this where we should win and don't. I think it was Dun that said the Pacers play them all close it doesn't matter who they are playing. I would agree, it seems every game is a coin flip.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 02-08-2009 at 09:59 PM.

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    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Those of us calling for a youth movement got a lot more ammunition tonight.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Typ, just typ for us. This talent and coaching blows. How bout that D? Danny and the backups home vs. the Cavs Tues.
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    Edge of Reason GO!!!!!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    can't we have done this last year and got Rose or Westbrook..

    Atleast the draft should be exciting as we'll have a decent pick...


    Ya Think Ya Used Enough Dynamite there Butch...


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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    I started listening to the game with 20 seconds left. Granger hits the 3 and I'm pumped -- then it all comes to an end w/ Butler's shot.

    It is nice to have a team that plays hard. If we do make the lottery, then I hope we get that top 3 pick. We need a break.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    I didn't hear the game but if we lost because we left time on the clock then I'm not surprised. We can't get stops... ever... so why should crunch time be any different?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Key injuries to our primary lineup and the Offensive/Defensive system that we run now is starting to really wear on me.

    Ever since the MurpLeavy trade, I've lost confidence in whether this team can beat opponents that they are "supposedly" better than. Earlier this season, with JONeal gone and we now have a "fresh start" with a Granger-led offense, my impression of this team was initially changed with some glimmer of hope that we could actually do better.....but now, I have settled into the attitude that we are capable of jumping out to a huge lead against teams that we should be able to beat and hold our own against superior teams. Unfortunately, this only happens in the 1st 3 QTRs......after the 4th QTR.....we just are not capable of holding leads and always are forced at the end of games to simply maintain the status quo or ( more often then not ) play catchup. My confidence in this team has changed from "we can't beat any team" to "we simply can't hold any lead...no matter how big the lead is".

    Unless there is a change that comes before the Trade Deadline....I'm gonna change my mind about what we should do for the rest of the season. For now....I'm still on the "Make the Playoffs at all costs even at the cost of developing our younger Players" boat.....but I've starting to pack my bags and getting ready to head over to the "Develop our younger Players 1st while doing our best to win games and pray that we make the Playoffs" boat.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Thoughts;
    Danny keeps hitting clutch shots only to have someone else hit a bigger one.

    Butler was on fire and Danny should have been put on him a couple shots earlier.

    I'd say the fat lady just started singing.

    I hate games like this where we should win and don't. I think it was Dun that said the Pacers play them all close it doesn't matter who they are playing. I would agree, it seems every game is a coin flip.

    I said a while back it's worthless to waste time watching the whole game. Just wait and watch the last 5 minutes of each game... they are all basically the same. Either they lose like tonight's game or they pull one out like the Orlando game.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Still smh at JOB's rotations. I'm on the fence about the whole lynch mob deal though. I personally feel that there's too much talent on this team for them to have the record they do, but maybe I'm a bit of a homer in that department, I don't know. Doesn't feel like JOB is getting even close to the maximum effort out of these guys. But maybe he needs another season to let all these newly-acquired dudes gel and/or become trade fodder. I guess we'll know soon enough whether or not that second part will happen...

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    Fat, Drunk and Stupid Lord Helmet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Keep fighting.
    Super Bowl XLI Champions
    2000 Eastern Conference Champions





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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    I just came back from the game. Danny looks hurt...or something. I'm amazed he got 29 points because he doesn't look 100% out there. We missed Quis's defense tonight.

    I'm starting to turn on Obie. I'm going to give it much more time, obviously, but I've started to turn on him.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    10 days, 2 hours, and 45 minutes Bird. You are on the clock and it's ticking. It's time for some changes.
    Last edited by Justin Tyme; 02-08-2009 at 10:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    It's a mystery, folks.

    How do you beat the Lakers, Celtics, Rockets, Magic and Suns and lose to the worse team in the league?

    If someone has the answer to this mystery, please let me know.

    I think I'm going to take Justin's advice and just watch the last 5 minutes of each game. Better yet, I think I'll just check the sports section the following day to read more of the same.

    Headline: "Pacers lose another one against a team the should've beaten!"

    This is depressing. Another 8 loses and they're season will be all over.

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    Womens Wrestling Champion El Pacero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    I flew to Baltimore just to watch this game. Very disappointing loss. Danny was so pissed after the game, he kicked the monitors in front of first row behind the basket and the huge thing fell on a lady and looked like it hurt her. TJ went up to her and apologized a bunch. Hope they don't punish granger.

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    Formerly QuickRelease NapTonius Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    10 days, 2 hours, and 45 minutes Bird. You are on the clock and it's ticking. It's time for some changes.
    What do you see out there that makes us any better than we are now? I'm never in favor of just making changes for change sake.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by ouzome View Post
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    I flew to Baltimore just to watch this game. Very disappointing loss. Danny was so pissed after the game, he kicked the monitors in front of first row behind the basket and the huge thing fell on a lady and looked like it hurt her. TJ went up to her and apologized a bunch. Hope they don't punish granger.
    Earlier in the game when Jack travelled, Danny was as upset as I had seen him ever. He does not take losing well and is as competitive of a Pacers as we have ever had. It's amazing how much he's changed since the last time I saw him in person two years ago. He has a lot more Bird and Jordan in him than I ever thought possible.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    I'm telling you.... the loosey goosey offense only works for so long to keep everyone happy. Continually losing, and with defense (or lack thereof) being to be blame will eventually lose the team for a coach just as much as anything else. It doesn't matter how coachable the team is or what their character makeup is, eventually you can't look in the mirror and say "We'll get 'em next time" when you know in your heart the team has a fatal flaw that won't let it happen. And if you can't tell yourself that, then you can't effectively tell your teammates that and get them to jump in the foxhole any longer either.

    In years past Walsh would just let this fester and ooze until it blew up and caused 10 other problems. It's yet to be seen how Bird and company will react and if they will get in front of the problem or handle it just as ineptly as Walsh would've. From the outside looking in we don't know how close this is to getting caustic, but TPTB should know. Personally, I'd think it has to be getting close and we might be better off sending O'Brien packing before we get 10 other problems. The ASG is going to give him a bit of a reprieve (that he doesn't deserve) if he can make it that long.

    With the trade deadline looming there is the potential to throw the baby out with the bathwater because I am thoroughly unconvinced our problem can be fixed with a talent infusion anywhere other than at the head coaching position.

    Other than playing the young guys more, there's nothing else to be gained by firing O'Brien right now (or this season) as long as he can keep the team together. But again, I'm thoroughly unconvinced that can happen. I don't think he can keep the team together because his refusal to address and demand better from the defense will be his rightful undoing. I think we're about to see the trip wire tripped and this good chemistry we've been blessed with will be history and this time the cancer won't be a player(s), it'll be a coach with a losing system for these players and stubborn refusal to admit it or address it.

    To change players and expect anything different is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    That's my unwavering 2 cents on the subject.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  18. #18

    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    *How can Dunleavy and Daniels even show their faces around Granger?

    Anyone can talk about needing wins for the playoffs but Granger is out there on one leg trying to carry us into the postseason.

    When the franchise player is getting it done at far less than 100% you can't sit out with nagging injuries.

    *Rush got big minutes tonight and played pretty well. Would've liked too see him guard Butler down the stretch. One of these games O'Brien will give Rush and Hibbert big minutes in the SAME game.

    *Nice 2nd half from Murphy...2 points.

    *Why did we go small down the stretch? How many second chance points did the Wizards get in the final 5 minutes? Go with two bigs, limit the team to one shot and clean the glass. (Off the top of my head, 2 of Butler's late buckets came off second chance points.)

    *It's a sad commentary on the state of the Pacers, but for the fourth straight season I'll be reading everything possible regarding trades hoping that that Blue & Gold can get a jump start on next season before the trade deadline passes.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by bnd45 View Post
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    *Nice 2nd half from Murphy...2 points.
    I mentioned this in the Game Thread and have noticed it over the course of the season....but I really think that Murphy should limit his shots in the 2nd half. This is especially true when JO'B decides to use him as the Center when we go Small Ball in the 2nd half when everyone is running and he's simply doing his best to keep up.

    I would be interested in his 2nd half stats compared to his 1st Half stats....I wouldn't be surprised if he scores the majority of his points in the 1st half when he has lots of energy and then begins to lose his legs in the 2nd half. I would be okay with this if he had a low-post game....but since his game is based entirely on his jumpshot.....when he has no lift in his legs...he has no shot and effectively becomes ineffective on the floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by bnd45 View Post
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    *Why did we go small down the stretch? How many second chance points did the Wizards get in the final 5 minutes? Go with two bigs, limit the team to one shot and clean the glass. (Off the top of my head, 2 of Butler's late buckets came off second chance points.)
    It's simple....JO'B likes to play a more athletic lineup that can keep up with the pace of offense that he prefers. I'm beginning to think that the only way that Hibbert will ever develop is in an offense/defense that fits his style. For now, under JO'B....Hibbert simply doesn't fit into the offensive/defensive style that our Coach runs.
    Last edited by CableKC; 02-08-2009 at 11:04 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  20. #20
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    No Hibbert in the second half. I have a real problem with that.

    The other glaring problem is point guard. TJ doesn't run the offense well, gets caught up in the paint and turns it over. Diener comes in and runs the offense, but can't hit the shots they give him. It didn't help that JOB had no offensive players in there with Diener.

    We lose these games at about the six minute mark, not at the end. JOB and the players, except for Granger, are not mentally tough.

    To his credit, JOB called a couple of timeouts with 2 or 3 minutes left. We could have used one a few minutes earlier when we started losing our lead.

    After Butler scored on Jack for the fourth time, maybe we could have put someone else on him. Danny got the assignment at the end, but too little too late.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I mentioned this in the Game Thread and have noticed it over the course of the season....but I really think that Murphy should limit his shots in the 2nd half. This is especially true when JO'B decides to use him as the Center when we go Small Ball in the 2nd half when everyone is running and he's simply doing his best to keep up.

    I would be interested in his 2nd half stats compared to his 1st Half stats....I wouldn't be surprised if he scores the majority of his points in the 1st half when he has lots of energy and then begins to lose his legs in the 2nd half. I would be okay with this if he had a low-post game....but since his game is based entirely on his jumpshot.....when he has no lift in his legs...he has no shot and effectively becomes ineffective on the floor.
    This is one of the biggest reasons I do not like him in a Pacer uni. Games are not won in the first half when he fills up the statbook. There is a reason why our record is well above .500 when he does not play.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    What do you see out there that makes us any better than we are now? I'm never in favor of just making changes for change sake.

    I'm not in favor of making a trade for the sake of making a trade, but this team can't continue down this path either. It is obvious that the Simons and Bird aren't going to make JO'B change his system, so it either stays the course that is until O'Brien is gone, or get players that can work in O'Brien's system that can "D" at a high level. The perimeter "D" issue hasn't been solved nor has the issue of the lack of an inside presence been addressed.

    If Bird and the Simons' goal is getting to the playoffs this year with O'Brien as the coach, they don't have an option but to bring in different players who can work within O'Brien's system to achieve that goal. If they are just satisfied in creating a different atmosphere and playing exciting/entertaining BB then do nothing until the offseason. If they are interested in truly getting back into the playoffs this year, then the clock is ticking.

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    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    After Butler scored on Jack for the fourth time, maybe we could have put someone else on him.


    Who told Jarrett Jack to guard Caron Butler? Does JOb think Jack is another SF?

    Ya know, that was Caron's season high. We love helping teams and opposing players get their season highs it seems.

    Assuming all our real NBA players are out with injuries, at least they could have put Stephen Graham on him. I'm pretty sure Stephen could have put up more resistance than our backup PG.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    No Hibbert in the second half. I have a real problem with that.

    The other glaring problem is point guard. TJ doesn't run the offense well, gets caught up in the paint and turns it over. Diener comes in and runs the offense, but can't hit the shots they give him. It didn't help that JOB had no offensive players in there with Diener.
    At this point in the season we should be doing what we do consistently. The mad scientist rotations are a part of the overall problem IMHO. Diener doesn't know from one game to the next when he'll be called upon, nor does anyone else on the team outside a select few. It's not just game to game... it's quarter to quarter... half to half.

    I really think O'Brien is looking like one of the most inept coaches I've seen in a while. His team is regressing around him and the only anchor he seems to have is an unhealthy fascination with small-ball and high scoring games.

    He's turning into an awful fit for this team and what we need right now. We need a coach whose system is about fundamental basketball... that's not O'Brien.

    He cannot be gone soon enough for me. A coach that doesn't demand more of the defense is not a coach I can get behind.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

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    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread, Pacers at Wizards, 02/08/2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I'm telling you.... the loosey goosey offense only works for so long to keep everyone happy. Continually losing, and with defense (or lack thereof) being to be blame will eventually lose the team for a coach just as much as anything else. It doesn't matter how coachable the team is or what their character makeup is, eventually you can't look in the mirror and say "We'll get 'em next time" when you know in your heart the team has a fatal flaw that won't let it happen. And if you can't tell yourself that, then you can't effectively tell your teammates that and get them to jump in the foxhole any longer either.

    In years past Walsh would just let this fester and ooze until it blew up and caused 10 other problems. It's yet to be seen how Bird and company will react and if they will get in front of the problem or handle it just as ineptly as Walsh would've. From the outside looking in we don't know how close this is to getting caustic, but TPTB should know. Personally, I'd think it has to be getting close and we might be better off sending O'Brien packing before we get 10 other problems. The ASG is going to give him a bit of a reprieve (that he doesn't deserve) if he can make it that long.

    With the trade deadline looming there is the potential to throw the baby out with the bathwater because I am thoroughly unconvinced our problem can be fixed with a talent infusion anywhere other than at the head coaching position.

    Other than playing the young guys more, there's nothing else to be gained by firing O'Brien right now (or this season) as long as he can keep the team together. But again, I'm thoroughly unconvinced that can happen. I don't think he can keep the team together because his refusal to address and demand better from the defense will be his rightful undoing. I think we're about to see the trip wire tripped and this good chemistry we've been blessed with will be history and this time the cancer won't be a player(s), it'll be a coach with a losing system for these players and stubborn refusal to admit it or address it.

    To change players and expect anything different is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    That's my unwavering 2 cents on the subject.

    I am tending to agree. People want a low post presence, well we have Roy Hibbert, but he can't seem to consistently get off the bench even when he seems to produce positive results consistently. People want better defense? Our better one on one defenders have their skills negated by this obrien "defense" where everyone runs around and lets the other team shoot open three pointers.

    Heres the thing, we play this way because we have guys too slow to stay in front of their man... but they are also too slow to make the rotations quick enough to cover the three point shooters. ITS NOT WORKING.

    Play D straight up, man to man, and give the guys who are better individual defenders more minutes... like Rush, Baston, Mcbob, Hibbert (one on one against big centers he is pretty effective).... reduce Murphs minutes. Yea I know, hes having a hell of a season... but hes the poster boy for stat whoring. He fights his own teammates for rebounds.

    Forget this small ball crap while were at it. You know even if someone blows by dunleavy occasionally having a big 7-2 guy in the paint might help deter some of those easy layups.

    I don't know, I have been slow to join this camp but I am not satisfied with the way this team is coached. Obrien seems unable to adjust. I honestly think he about maxed the team out last season but Bird got us some better defenders and they either aren't getting used, or they aren't getting used properly.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 02-08-2009 at 11:18 PM.
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