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Thread: Post-Game: Sixers win

  1. #76
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg
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    Also, I remember a few years ago some stat that if a team lost games it was on them, but if they lost games consistently by less than 3 points (or something like that) it was on the coach...I wonder how many games we've lost this year in OT, less than 3 or 4 points?
    This is somewhat nitpicky, but that's not a stat, it's an opinion, a speculation as to the cause.

    Also, this has been discussed before in some detail. This year's Pacers are 5-10 in games decided by 4 points or less in regulation, and 1-4 in OT games, for a combined 6-14 in "Close" games. Over O'Brien's tenure, the team has gone 11-16 in games decided by 4 points or less in regulation, and 2-6 in OT games, for a combined 13-22, or .371.

    However, there are two other things to note:

    First, in his previous stops in Boston and Philly, O'Brien's teams won about 60% of their close and OT games, (60-39).

    Second, in the two years prior to O'Brien coming here (Carlisle's last two years), the Pacers were 8-24 in regulation games decided by 4 or less, and 2-3 in OT games, for a combined 10-27, or .270 record.

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    In keeping with my philosophy that it can always be worse...

    In watching the JOB rotations this year, I was thinking the last time I saw anything like this was when Isiah was here.

    A few have posted here commenting how Hibbert was having a decent game but was benched for most/all of the second half...the last time I saw something like this was during Jeff Foster's rookie year, when he had a game against San Antonio where he got 10 pts/14 reb. His reward? Isiah benched him for the next 4 games...now that's good for a rookies confidence.

    How many here bet JOB benches or limits his minutes the next game?
    I agree with this to some degree. JOB is starting to flail around. He's getting more desperate to try to make things happen, and, as a result, he's committing the single biggest sin that any coach can make: over coaching.

    This happens to virtually every coach at some point in time, some more than others. Isiah is the classic example of the guy who was a bad coach from day one. He constantly thought he could out-coach the game, and often seemed to believe that the game was won in the huddles and not on the floor.

    When solid-to-good coaches get desperate, they start to push. It happened to Carlisle, and it's happening to O'Brien. Couple that with the over-engineered defensive scheme and things start to spiral. If he stays on the path that he started a couple weeks ago, I believe should and will be fired.

    What he needs to do is tighten the rotation back up, and make it relatively rigid. I think it will help the team both now and in the future.

    However, he needs to resist the instinct to go old. My rotations would be based on three groups:

    Point Guard: Ford, Jack, & Diener
    Wings: Granger, Dunleavy, & Rush
    Bigs: Murphy, Foster, and Hibbert

    Rasho, Daniels, Baston, Graham, & McBob generally only get a taste for fouls or injuries. Rasho, Daniels, and Baston are gone at the end of the season. Graham has basically been this year's Kareem Rush - a guy who more or less came out of nowhere to contribute, but has reached his diminishing returns. McBob is a marginally interesting young prospect. They will probably both be back next year simply because they'll be cheap.

    Play the rotations tight, play them strict. Dumb down the defense and play more straight up. You're not going to make the playoffs by trying to make the playoffs. The best shot, at this point, is to have Hibbert and Rush give you what they gave you last night.

    Also, if we drop the game tonight, we should probably shut Danny down until after the All-Star break (and I'm including him not participating in All-Star weekend, as well. If he doesn't play in real games, he shouldn't play in some dumbass exhibition.)

  2. #77
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by PugdOut View Post
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    Nicely said, I would love to know how true Boston/Philly fans felt about OB during his tenure with those clubs
    I think a more interesting thing would be what were their thoughts after he left and both franchises really suffered. O'Brien maxed out both of those teams - I think the evidence shows that clearly. Who knows about with the Pacers, won't know until or unless a new coach is brought in

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Because two months ago playoffs was still an option. Now I am leaning towards playing the rookies and Mcbob. And not for the sake of tanking. This team needs more energy and the casual fans need to see the direction of the future. Daniels, Jack, and Rasho are not in the future (I hope I don't eat those words).
    Well said.

    I don't think it would hurt the Pacers playoff aspirations to play the rooks more. It certainly won't hurt them any more than the veteran lineup.

    Losing games to teams ahead of you in the playoff chase is no way to make the playoffs.

    On a side note, I really appreciate these postgame threads, as I'm unable to watch most Pacers games because I live in Florida (although I will get to see them play tonight - woohoo).

  4. #79
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Everybody has a right to discuss how they feel on this forum. I do not blame JOB for our horrific FG shooting in the third quater. I am not upset at him for picking up a tech when the refs had a no-call on Dalembert in the fourth quater. That was a clear moving screen.
    My thoughts are this: Our organization has 13 days to the deadline. Let's get active. It is now win time. If we continue to lose in these coming days then we should look to move some players. I am all for using Rasho, Maceo, in a package with Tinsley. I would also have zero problem having Granger sit out for a few weeks in order to evaluate Rush. I am not saying we tank untill is it 100% clear we will not make the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by ESB View Post
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    Even Chris Paul won't be able to run this static team. Blame JOB for not utilizing TJ well.
    Chris Paul is a superstar. Match him with Granger you have a playoff team in the EAST. Comparing Ford to CP3 is like comparing Lebron to Bobby Simmons. Ford lacks a killer instict it was proven in the Timberwolves game.

    I watched a lot of the Celtics and Lakers game and both teams are better at almost every position than the Pacers. Watch more NBA games than just the Pacers and then evaluate how talented our team is.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    ya, but just because JOB was minorly sucessful at his previous 2 stops , record-wise, doesn't mean he is able to again ... Ya know, even a dog has the sun shine on his a$$ every once in awhile..



    For every 2 good things JOB does as a coach, he does 3 bad things .. as far as his decision making process on rotations, subs ..
    Another BIG thing which is my main thing with him , is recognizing WHEN and WHERE to make changes on the fly in game... in regards to reading each of his player's game-time effectiveness... in order to suceed and get a win ...

    JOB is just not cutting the mustard.. in those regards..
    We have enough talent to be a good coachable team .. regardless of what some of you may think...
    But you cannot put losses totally on the players, when you have a coach, who doesn't seem to know how to "UTILIZE" the guys we have to work with on our team..

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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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  7. #82
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    Also, I remember a few years ago some stat that if a team lost games it was on them, but if they lost games consistently by less than 3 points (or something like that) it was on the coach...I wonder how many games we've lost this year in OT, less than 3 or 4 points?

    it is my opinion that it is the exact opposite. Talent is needed and more important than coaching to win close games. (besides JOB had an excellent record as coach oif the Celts and Sixers in close games when he had two proven closers. Iverson and Pierce) at the end of games you need a difference maker defensively and a close offensively to win close games. Granger is getting there, but he's not there yet

    Thanks count55 - excellent analysis - and your stats seem to back up the theory I'm proclaiming
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-06-2009 at 09:54 AM.

  8. #83
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    A select few of us have been saying that for over nearly 2 months and have routinely been criticized for it. Glad to see you've joined us. It gives us some cred.
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  9. #84
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    I heard Jeff Van Gundy talking about when teams win its the players who are talented, but when a team loses it's the coaches. He said there are so many situations where the talent just isn't there and the coach takes the fall.

    Now this is obviously coming from a coach, but I think it has some merit.

    Now with Obie, I think he can coach, but I don't agree with the way he's coaching this team because I'll be a fan long after he is gone. So my mindset is the longterm, his has to be right now.

    I'm sure he's up nights worrying about what I think though!

  10. #85
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Count55 - Thank You. I read through 4 pages of game thread and the whole time I'm wondering why I even bother, then I get finally see a reasonable post and I remember why.

    Now that I've given up hope for the playoffs, I really didn't see this as the terrible awful no-good very bad game that everyone else seems to have watched. Sure, there were some frustrating things, some bad plays by players and some decisions by O'Brien that I felt were questionable, but on the whole it was an infinitely better game than Tuesday's game against Minnesota. I'll try to put together a few cogent thoughts to prevent this thread from being merged with the "Fire O'Brien" thread.

    1. I'm totally on board with the shut Danny down for a while bandwagon, but I can understand him wanting to play in the All-Star game (even though I agree with Count's words about it's nature). It's an honor. It's something he's worked very hard to earn. No one can guarantee he'll ever have another opportunity. If he wants to play, let him as long as his knee's not going to get worse. It's not like we're going to make the playoffs anyway.

    2. I was fully intending to stay true to my words and not DVR this game. I was watching it off and on while making dinner and I happened to see Roy on the floor and catch the huge 2nd quarter run. At that point I knew I had to watch the rest of the game.

    3. Hibbert was flat-out dominant during that run. He scored 6 points, blocked at least 2 shots (I think he got 3, but the box score says 2), and forced a turnover by trapping Louis Williams out beyond the 3-point line. It was the best stretch of basketball I've seen him play. When he played in the 2nd half, he was back to being a rookie.

    4. It should be clear by now that I don't think Stephen Graham should ever play, but his performance last night was awful. He was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying our momentum at the end of the 2nd quarter. He came in for Danny with 4:56 left in the quarter. Over the next five minutes the play-by-play contains the following: SG defensive rebound, SG lost ball, SG shooting foul, SG defensive rebound, SG missed jumper, SG shooting foul, SG misses 3 point jumper, SG misses layup, Shot-clock violation (due to SG's overdribbling, IIRC).

    5. Brandon Rush was fantastic. I truly hope he never gets another DNP-CD. It did take him a couple minutes to get acclimated, but once he hit that 3 he became a really positive force. He made a couple very tough shots, drove aggressively to the bucket, got teammates wide open shots at least twice with great passes, and played good defense.

    6. You can ride Bird's eye for talent all you want, but I think both rookies proved last night that they have the potential to be very impactful NBA players.

    7. We had some bad defensive breakdowns, but on the whole I thought we played a pretty good defensive game. We held them to 40% shooting and 99 points. If we did that every game we'd be above 500.

    8. The reason we lost this game was poor shooting in the 3rd quarter. We had a number of open shots that just didn't fall. Philly played decent defense, but we shot 4-21 in the quarter. Many of those shots were open shots that we'd normally hit at least 50% of the time.

    9. I didn't have too much of a problem with O'Brien's rotations. I was ecstatic that Hibbert and Rush got some decent minutes. I was very happy that Graham didn't play in the second half. I was glad that Travis was playing at the end of the game. The only thing I really didn't like was that it was obvious about 4 minutes into the 3rd that the lineup we had in wasn't working. It took him another 2 minutes to make a substitution.

    I'm looking forward to watching the game tonight, but I'm going to be very upset if we don't see Rush and Hibbert again.
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    1. I'm totally on board with the shut Danny down for a while bandwagon, but I can understand him wanting to play in the All-Star game (even though I agree with Count's words about it's nature). It's an honor. It's something he's worked very hard to earn. No one can guarantee he'll ever have another opportunity. If he wants to play, let him as long as his knee's not going to get worse. It's not like we're going to make the playoffs anyway.
    Yes, let me clarify. I do not wish to diminish Danny's honor, nor deny him what has to be a very rare beam of sunlight in an otherwise miserable season.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    JOB is the reason why Dunleavy & Murphy have never made the playoffs as pros. JOB is not the problem. We have an extreme lack of talent.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    4. It should be clear by now that I don't think Stephen Graham should ever play, but his performance last night was awful. He was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying our momentum at the end of the 2nd quarter. He came in for Danny with 4:56 left in the quarter. Over the next five minutes the play-by-play contains the following: SG defensive rebound, SG lost ball, SG shooting foul, SG defensive rebound, SG missed jumper, SG shooting foul, SG misses 3 point jumper, SG misses layup, Shot-clock violation (due to SG's overdribbling, IIRC).

    5. Brandon Rush was fantastic. I truly hope he never gets another DNP-CD. It did take him a couple minutes to get acclimated, but once he hit that 3 he became a really positive force. He made a couple very tough shots, drove aggressively to the bucket, got teammates wide open shots at least twice with great passes, and played good defense.

    Excellent post. And please don't take my response as criticism and I'm not really directing this at you, although I would be interested in your thoughts.

    I found it interesting to read those two paragraps that I quoted above.

    Yes Graham had a bad game - but he's had good games. Rush had a good game, but he's had some bad games. So I wonder why you are suggesting two young players should be treated differently. Graham benched forever for a bad game and Rush played always no matter if he has a bad game. In fact if you add up all the good and bad from both players, Graham has outplayed Rush this season. So should one game decide who plays. I don't get it
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-06-2009 at 01:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Chris Paul is a superstar. Match him with Granger you have a playoff team in the EAST. Comparing Ford to CP3 is like comparing Lebron to Bobby Simmons. Ford lacks a killer instict it was proven in the Timberwolves game.

    I watched a lot of the Celtics and Lakers game and both teams are better at almost every position than the Pacers. Watch more NBA games than just the Pacers and then evaluate how talented our team is.
    You didn't get my point. I'm not trying to directly compare Ford against CP3. No doubt CP3 is a better scorer.
    My point is that CP3 does not spoon-feed his teammates, in terms of making plays as a PG. His teammates cut here and there, screen and so on... Our players? They just stand still, not even active as spectators! Danny is no exception. He just waits to be spoon-fed too. Matching Danny with CP3 will lead to automatic success ??? I don't buy that until our Danny and Co. develop some basketball IQ.
    I don't expect complex Princeton offense or any other fancy fast-paced offense implemented by JOB (I can't believe he is a NBA coach). But if our players move a little more diligently without the ball, then Ford has a better chance to shine as a PG. Well not only TJ, but also Jack and Diener! TJ proved his court vision as a Longhorn and Raptor.

    BTW, TJ was #8 pick of the incredible 2003 draft class and it speaks volume on his potentials. If that damn spinal cord injury had not occurred, he could have been more deadly. Don't judge him just by his performance at the game against Wolves. It's the team as a whole that is choking the entire season so far!

  15. #90
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by ESB View Post
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    You didn't get my point. I'm not trying to directly compare Ford against CP3. No doubt CP3 is a better scorer.
    My point is that CP3 does not spoon-feed his teammates, in terms of making plays as a PG. His teammates cut here and there, screen and so on... Our players? They just stand still, not even active as spectators! Danny is no exception. He just waits to be spoon-fed too. Matching Danny with CP3 will lead to automatic success ??? I don't buy that until our Danny and Co. develop some basketball IQ.
    I don't expect complex Princeton offense or any other fancy fast-paced offense implemented by JOB (I can't believe he is a NBA coach). But if our players move a little more diligently without the ball, then Ford has a better chance to shine as a PG. Well not only TJ, but also Jack and Diener! TJ proved his court vision as a Longhorn and Raptor.

    BTW, TJ was #8 pick of the incredible 2003 draft class and it speaks volume on his potentials. If that damn spinal cord injury had not occurred, he could have been more deadly. Don't judge him just by his performance at the game against Wolves. It's the team as a whole that is choking the entire season so far!
    I understand you're a fan and I commend you for it but TJ has been terrible far more often than not. He had a great start to the season. He's dropped off faster than an anvil on a cliff.
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    maybe by phone........

    That's hilarious!

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    I understand you're a fan and I commend you for it but TJ has been terrible far more often than not. He had a great start to the season. He's dropped off faster than an anvil on a cliff.
    Yup, I'm a fan since he was a Longhorn,, But I also see him getting traded sooner or later. May be he will end up as a journeyman if he cannot do something with his weakness.

  18. #93

    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    there is no question that as long as dun and murphy are on the team and getting paid they way they do and start games we are not going anywhere, maybe the playoffs and get out the first round. murphy cant rebound to save his life if he is under pressure, his stats are inflated, dun is not a starter because he is a below average player that can shoot and sometimes pass the ball good.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Excellent post. And please don't take my response as criticism and I'm not really directing this at you, although I would be interested in your thoughts.

    I found it interesting to read those two paragraps that I quoted above.

    Yes Graham had a bad game - but he's had good games. Rush had a good game, but he's had some bad games. So I wonder why you are suggesting two young players should be treated differently. Graham benched forever for a bad game and Rush played always no matter if he has a bad game. In fact if you add up all the good and bad from both players, Graham has outplayed Rush this season. So should one game decided who plays. I don't get it
    I cannot speak for the difference because I've seen them in action so little, but I would prefer to see both Graham and Rush on the floor more often. The player that is taking minutes away from both is Daniels (who is better than either at this point in his career). I doubt the Pacers are going to make a move before the deadline. It's getting closer and closer and any rumors involving the Pacers are coming from chats and blogs, not the newspaper sources. But then again, you never know. I don't think anyone really picked up the Golden State rumors when we dealt Jackson and Harrington a couple years ago for Murphy and Dun.

    If they were to make a trade before the deadline, and Daniels was involved, it would open up minutes for both Rush and Graham because the depth chart at the wing would get smaller (unless of course we brought back another wing player if we did trade Daniels).

    Depending upon a potential trade, the team might be fortunate enough to address part of their big man situation with a trade too, so it could help the entire team, as well as unite the fans that are concerned about playing time for the youths vs. the vets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Roy was a real difference maker in that 2nd quarter.


    Danny is toughing it out. 12 games under, Danny needs to sit, imho.

    As most have come to realize I'm not a Hibbert fan, but that 2nd qtr Hibbert was playing a nice game. Kudos to him.

    I totally agree that Danny needs to be shut down until after the AS break. The LAST thing the Pacers need is an injured player who can't play b/c he wasn't shut down to heal. This season is a waste anyway, so shut Granger down until he's healed.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    ESB, I understand your point better now. But Murphy has little to no low post game. He stands around the three point line. Foster is active on offense by setting screens and on the boards. I also saw Roy active on the boards last night. I see good ball movement at times but we lack consistency.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    ESB, I understand your point better now. But Murphy has little to no low post game. He stands around the three point line. Foster is active on offense by setting screens and on the boards. I also saw Roy active on the boards last night. I see good ball movement at times but we lack consistency.
    Hey Jonathan, glad that you got my points. Unfortunately, I couldn't watch last night's game on TV, but I was keeping track of the scores through NBA.com's courtside live. Didn't really give much detail on ball movements , but good to hear from you that there were some good ones It's a sign of hope despite the loss.

    I'm still with your signature

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Excellent post. And please don't take my response as criticism and I'm not really directing this at you, although I would be interested in your thoughts.

    I found it interesting to read those two paragraps that I quoted above.

    Yes Graham had a bad game - but he's had good games. Rush had a good game, but he's had some bad games. So I wonder why you are suggesting two young players should be treated differently. Graham benched forever for a bad game and Rush played always no matter if he has a bad game. In fact if you add up all the good and bad from both players, Graham has outplayed Rush this season. So should one game decided who plays. I don't get it
    Don't worry about criticizing me. I enjoy having my logical flaws pointed out.

    I'm having an incredibly hard time organizing my thoughts into a coherent response, so I'll just spit out some rough basics.

    - Yes, I do believe the two players should be treated differently. This is because Rush has superior potential and is unquestionably a part of the Pacers' future. It is also because Rush is not a primadonna type of character who needs a bit of ego-squashing. From everything we've seen he's a hard-working, high-character guy who's having some confidence issues. I don't mind O'Brien's benching of him, but if he performs well when given an opportunity, I think that performance should be rewarded.

    - My dislike of Graham does not stem from just this last game. It just so happened that Graham, in the span of 5 minutes, made every mistake he commonly makes that drives me crazy. Even in Graham's good games he still overdribbles, doesn't pass well, has frequent mental lapses on the defensive end, and attacks the basket at inopportune times. I don't mind Graham as the 12th guy on the roster, but as a rotation player I don't like him.

    That's about all I've got. I should also mention that I'm probably biased because I'm a big fan of Rush's.
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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    I thought it was ironic that Dunleavy was player of the game... when IMHO he played awful. I thought he was one of the major reasons we lost this game.

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    Default Re: Post-Game: Sixers win

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    Don't worry about criticizing me. I enjoy having my logical flaws pointed out.

    I'm having an incredibly hard time organizing my thoughts into a coherent response, so I'll just spit out some rough basics.

    - Yes, I do believe the two players should be treated differently. This is because Rush has superior potential and is unquestionably a part of the Pacers' future. It is also because Rush is not a primadonna type of character who needs a bit of ego-squashing. From everything we've seen he's a hard-working, high-character guy who's having some confidence issues. I don't mind O'Brien's benching of him, but if he performs well when given an opportunity, I think that performance should be rewarded.

    - My dislike of Graham does not stem from just this last game. It just so happened that Graham, in the span of 5 minutes, made every mistake he commonly makes that drives me crazy. Even in Graham's good games he still overdribbles, doesn't pass well, has frequent mental lapses on the defensive end, and attacks the basket at inopportune times. I don't mind Graham as the 12th guy on the roster, but as a rotation player I don't like him.

    That's about all I've got. I should also mention that I'm probably biased because I'm a big fan of Rush's.

    OK, that makes a lot of sense. I'll just mention - we really don't know yet but in 4 years I don't think it is out of the realm of possiblity that Graham might be better than Rush (not suggesting that is likely.

    One thing I do know is for most of last season there were several posters who were clammoring for Graham to get more minutes (I guess because he looked good the few times he did play) and now most have turned on him after he gets consistant minutes and most have found out he isn't as good as they thought or hoped

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