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Thread: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

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    Default Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    This is a little different than the typical "sky is falling" thread regarding the state of the Pacer franchise and a possible relocation.

    What I want to consider is that Mel and Herb won't own the team forever, and that apparently none of the other family members want to take over the responsiblity. Therefore, it is a near certainty that the team will be sold "at some point".

    I won't even ask you to identify potential buyers, that doesn't matter. What I will challenge you to do is to name a possible city for relocation that can support an NBA team. I contend that it is much more difficult to come up with a viable relocation city than what you might think.

    Among NBA owners, it is common that the owner or group of owners have substantial business interests in the city where their teams are located, or are residents of the city themselves.

    So, in order for the team to be relocated, that may require that a pairing of a willing buyer and his city be found to assume ownership. And, in my opinion, there simply aren't very many viable city/metropolitan areas that can support an NBA franchise.

    To relocate an NBA team to a city with the expectation of long-term success, I believe it would require either a very substantial population base, or at the very least, a city with lesser population that does not already have an NFL team and/or a major league baseball team.

    Oklahoma City has 2/3 the population as the Indy area. Even without other pro teams, just how long do you expect them to hold a fan base of nearly 19,000? Once the novelty and the "honeymoon" are over, give them a couple of losing seasons and let's see how many fans are still attending and how viable the franchise is. If they can continue to connect with the city and establish some traditions, then maybe they have a chance. Otherwise, probably not.

    Anyway, many are fearful of a relocation. All I'm asking is if you really think that is likely, where do you think the Pacers could be relocated? Hopefully, in going through this exercise, perhaps we can all be a little calmer about the current news regarding renegotiation between the Simons and CIB.

    I've listed the 50 largest municipal areas by population to help in your selection. Municipal areas (or near by areas) with NBA teams appear in bold print.

    RankMunicipalityState2000.07
    1New York cityNew York8,104,079
    2Los Angeles cityCalifornia3,845,541
    3Chicago cityIllinois2,862,244
    4Houston cityTexas2,012,626
    5Philadelphia cityPennsylvania1,470,151
    6Phoenix cityArizona1,418,041
    7San Diego cityCalifornia1,263,756
    8San Antonio cityTexas1,236,249
    9Dallas cityTexas1,210,393
    10San Jose cityCalifornia904,522
    11Detroit cityMichigan900,198
    12Indianapolis city (balance)Indiana784,242
    13Jacksonville cityFlorida777,704
    14San Francisco cityCalifornia744,230
    15Columbus cityOhio730,008
    16Austin cityTexas681,804
    17Memphis cityTennessee671,929
    18Baltimore cityMaryland636,251
    19Fort Worth cityTexas603,337
    20Charlotte cityNorth Carolina594,359
    21El Paso cityTexas592,099
    22Milwaukee cityWisconsin583,624
    23Seattle cityWashington571,480
    24Boston cityMassachusetts569,165
    25Denver cityColorado556,835
    26Louisville-Jefferson County cityKentucky556,332
    27Washington cityDistrict of Columbia553,523
    28Nashville-Davidson (balance)Tennessee546,719
    29Las Vegas cityNevada534,847
    30Portland cityOregon533,492
    31Oklahoma City cityOklahoma528,042
    32Tucson cityArizona512,023
    33Albuquerque cityNew Mexico484,246
    34Long Beach cityCalifornia476,564
    35New Orleans cityLouisiana462,269
    36Cleveland cityOhio458,684
    37Fresno cityCalifornia457,719
    38Sacramento cityCalifornia454,330
    39Kansas City cityMissouri444,387
    40Virginia Beach cityVirginia440,098
    41Mesa cityArizona437,454
    42Atlanta cityGeorgia419,122
    43Omaha cityNebraska409,416
    44Oakland cityCalifornia397,976
    45Tulsa cityOklahoma383,764
    46Miami cityFlorida379,724
    47Honolulu CDPHawaii377,260
    48Minneapolis cityMinnesota373,943
    49Colorado Springs cityColorado369,363
    50Arlington cityTexas359,467
    Last edited by beast23; 02-04-2009 at 01:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    seattle...relocation is a serious possibility if the pacers don't find themselves a star.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Seattle has needed a new arena for more than a decade. Stern allowed the Sonics to leave because repeated funding efforts failed.

    Next idea? Because Seattle is not likely to be getting another team any time soon.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    For some reason over the past decade I've mentioned Mexico City as an option for an NBA team.

    This from Wikipedia....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

    The actual city population, 2006 numbers, is larger than NY... 8,720,916

    The metropolitan area also has a larger number than NY... 19,231,829

    As for ownership, Carlos Slim Helú. How does the 2nd richest man in the world with $60 Billion sound.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim_Hel%C3%BA

    Also, I have one word for you..... merchandising!

    How many jerseys do you think they would sell in one year?

    OK we have an owner with deep pockets and an untapped market with more than 19 million people.

    Do we worry yet?

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    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    For some reason over the past decade I've mentioned Mexico City as an option for an NBA team.

    This from Wikipedia....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

    The actual city population, 2006 numbers, is larger than NY... 8,720,916

    The metropolitan area also has a larger number than NY... 19,231,829

    As for ownership, Carlos Slim Helú. How does the 2nd richest man in the world with $60 Billion sound.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim_Hel%C3%BA

    Also, I have one word for you..... merchandising!

    How many jerseys do you think they would sell in one year?

    OK we have an owner with deep pockets and an untapped market with more than 19 million people.

    Do we worry yet?
    You couldn't get players to go there.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Seattle has needed a new arena for more than a decade. Stern allowed the Sonics to leave because repeated funding efforts failed.

    Next idea? Because Seattle is not likely to be getting another team any time soon.
    seattle will have another nba team, there is no question about that. seattle is a hotbed for basketball, had plenty of fan support for the sonics, and has supported their other sports franchises fairly well. stern can ***** about a new arena all he wants, but that has more to do with the owner/mayor than it does the fans and how many tickets were being sold.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    You couldn't get players to go there.
    Why, cause its Mexico?

    You think the night life is better in Utah or Charlotte?

    Just how much money would a player make in endorsments in a country the size of Mexico when he's the star of their only basketball team.

    How many All Star games would you voted onto when you have a fan base that size?

    Do all NBA players live in the city they play in?

    OK, tell me why no player would want to be a members of a Mexico City team?

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    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Why, cause its Mexico?
    Yes.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Agreed about Mexico city. No chance. More likely is a Latin League affiliated with the NBA.

    Judging market viability by population is misguided. Better to look at incomes in the area. Seattle isn't gigantic, but there's a lot of money there. Same goes for San Diego. Somebody has to pay for those luxury boxes.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    You're putting your finger on one big reason the Simons may be so nervous, as well as the rest of the owners.

    What happens if the Simons put the Pacers up for sale, and can't sell them? Or, at least, can't get anywhere near Forbes' $300 million figure?

    I can't find anything (I get a weird Yahoo error on Firefox, periodically), but aren't the Griz still for sale? From what I can gather, Heisley was going to sell, had a deal with a group that included Christian Laettner, but that deal fell through. Since then, he's taken the team off the market, but has still expressed interest in local ownership.

    I do not have access to any more info than was available in the Forbes article from December that I linked in the other thread. However, intuitively, I believe the Simons have sustained operating and cash losses during their tenure as owners of the Pacers. This is offset by the increasing value of the asset (the team), theoretically, but that can only be realized by the sale of the team. Think about the last time you had your house appraised. Do you believe you can get that? My last re-fi appraised my house at $20k higher than what a nearly identical house right next to it sold for within six weeks of the appraisal. Think about the appraisal you got when you bought your house? I paid a good 10% less than the appraisal value.

    I can't put a probability on it, but I believe that contraction (the folding of franchises) is a possibility in the future in the NBA, unless there is a serious change in the cost structure. The salaries are too disconnected from the gate receipts. This is due to the TV contract, but the NBA, unlike the NFL, has iffy ratings. In March, 2008, the NBA reported a 20% rise in ratings, to 2.5 on ABC and 1.1 on ESPN and TNT cable outlets. Compare this to the NFL, while the NFL receive shares 5 times that for regular season game, ten times that for a playoff game, and 15 times that for the Superbowl.

    The NBA, IMO, is overvalued and overstretched right now. I am not convinced that 30 franchises is the best long term business model.

    BTW...the boogeyman for cities with struggling franchises in the NBA has been Las Vegas for a while. However, their viability is taking a serious hit in the current economic environment. Their core industry, gambling and entertainment, is a luxury item that fewer and fewer can afford. Meanwhile, their housing market appears to have had both one of the biggest bubbles and the biggest bursts during this slide.
    Last edited by count55; 02-04-2009 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    I seriously doubt they would move to Mexico city - I have been reading things about the drug war being completely out of control and the gov't down there losing their authority - way, way, way too much turmoil down there.

    croz24 - I think we have our star - Danny Granger

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Kansas City. They built the Sprint Center for the sole purpose of bringing a NBA or NHL team to the city. It's a big, nice stadium that has no real main tenant. They support an NFL and MLB team. They're the most likely.

    I'll also add St. Louis and Louisville

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Louisville - insult to injury.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Why, cause its Mexico?

    You think the night life is better in Utah or Charlotte?

    Just how much money would a player make in endorsments in a country the size of Mexico when he's the star of their only basketball team.

    How many All Star games would you voted onto when you have a fan base that size?

    Do all NBA players live in the city they play in?

    OK, tell me why no player would want to be a members of a Mexico City team?
    The thought of having a loved family member held for a 10-million dollar ransom on a bi-monthly basis would probably be a turnoff.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    My money is on Vegas.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    They actually should move to Raleigh, NC...its clean very nice and tons of basketball that already goes on here..duke, wake forest, north carolina Univ., carolina hurricanes and NC State. they would fit right in and fans would definately be please to see a NBA team here..and the city is one of the more growing cities in America.........Come here Pacers!!!

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Cincinnati. The Greater Cincy area has more than 2.3 Million People. They already have the US Bank Arena Built as part of the riverside sports complex.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Who could afford NBA tickets in Mexico City, 99% of the populace makes $3 a day. The players would need armed escorts to go anywhere. Kansas City is it.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
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    Cincinnati. The Greater Cincy area has more than 2.3 Million People. They already have the US Bank Arena Built as part of the riverside sports complex.
    That place is not good enough to hold an NBA team. It's over 30 years old, and would need a lot of work to make it up to "NBA Standards".

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    "Please welcome, Your Alaska Elks!"
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 02-04-2009 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    My money is on Vegas.
    Stern won't let it happen. He's been on the record saying Vegas is not a probable place for a franchise to go.

    I still highly doubt the Pacers will move, although talking about possible places has amped up my fear a little.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    St. Louis


    Sell them to the guy who used to own the St. Louis Spirits who keeps
    making millions off the TV revenue from the former ABA teams.

    As part of the deal, the Spurs, Nets, and Nuggets finally get let off the hook
    for TV revenues they must pay this guy.

    Would be bad for Indy, but sadly might be good for the NBA as a whole.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamBo_Lamar View Post
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    St. Louis


    Sell them to the guy who used to own the St. Louis Spirits who keeps
    making millions off the TV revenue from the former ABA teams.

    As part of the deal, the Spurs, Nets, and Nuggets finally get let off the hook
    for TV revenues they must pay this guy.

    Would be bad for Indy, but sadly might be good for the NBA as a whole.
    Yeah, I listed them earlier, but this keeps coming to mind. When the Grizzles were moving they looked at St. Louis and the ownership group said something along the lines of the city is laughable as a possible NBA city.

    Smart money is on KC

    Smarter money is on the Pacers staying put.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Cut and pasted this from Word, and don't really know what's wrong with all the control characters. Sorry for the strange look.

    Mexico City.


    Wow. I couldn’t see another Canadian city entering the mix, but I will admit that I had not considered a move south. Good thinking… and definitely outside the box. I do see logistics and security problems with Mexico, but the NBA might consider it worthy of a test with exhibition games for example. If the exhibitions were pulled off without problems, perhaps it would be considered. But a viable option until proven otherwise.



    The city that immediately came to mind for me was Las Vegas. But I’m not certain that Stern would want a team in Vegas with it being the gambling capital of the world.
    Kansas City and Sffice:smarttags" />lace w:st="on">Las Vegaslace>. But I’m not certain that Stern would want a team in Vegas with it being the gambling capital of the world.

    Kansas City and lace w:st="on">St. Louislace> are possibilities, but both have been unable to sustain teams in previous attempts. Cincy is also a heavy baseball / football city. I don’t even know about hockey teams in these cities because I don’t follow hockey, but can these cities also support an additional major league franchise?



    Louisville is definitely a basketball crazy city, but is very, very heavily geared towards the college game with UK and -Louisville- fielding great teams in most years. Relocation to Louisville might help appease Pacer fans; at least it would be within easy driving distance.



    The bottom line is that as we sit here today, I’m not worried in the least about relocation, but I’ve long been on board with Count’s position on contraction.



    If one owns a nice home, and loses a job or gets into cash flow problems, it is sometimes possible to get a reverse mortgage through your bank in order to maintain your lifestyle. The bank owns your home, but at least you will enjoy your home until its equity runs out.



    Unfortunately, this is not possible for $300M assets. You get into cash flow problems or heavy losses and want out from under the liability, you either sell the asset, even if at a fraction of its value, or you make some agreement to close your doors and liquidate your assets. I think this potential is at least equally likely as the team being relocated. The NBA and team owners would probably agree on a buyout on the team and a dispersal of its players, with the buyout being at a fraction of its worth on paper.


    I really don’t think the Simons walk away from their asset and I really don’t think that a potential buyer / relocation city will be found. I believe that the best alternative for the Simons is for an agreement to be reached with Indy. And, that is why both the Simons and Indy will jump through hoops to come to an agreement. At least for now, it is mutually beneficial to both parties. Indy has a relatively new arena that needs a team to help make the arena viable, and the Simons probably won’t find any takers for their asset.
    Last edited by beast23; 02-04-2009 at 10:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Worried About a Pacer Relocation? Tell Me Where...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamBo_Lamar View Post
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    St. Louis


    Sell them to the guy who used to own the St. Louis Spirits who keeps
    making millions off the TV revenue from the former ABA teams.

    As part of the deal, the Spurs, Nets, and Nuggets finally get let off the hook
    for TV revenues they must pay this guy.

    Would be bad for Indy, but sadly might be good for the NBA as a whole.
    I was under the impression that it was a share from all 30 teams, not just the former ABA teams.

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