while he is at it why not start diener ford and jack together, that sounds like a lot of fun
We have seen a healthy improvement in our winning percentage since Dun returned.
Dun had a bad game last night. It happens.
We got drilled by a superior team last night. It happens.
Is our defense suspect? Yeah. Has it had some good moments? Yeah.
I don't think we should get so serious about calling for JOB's head until we've seen the real returns of his coaching with a healthy Dunleavy, as well as a healthy Quis and Ford.
If you don't see serious improvement 20 games from now with a healthy Dun then there is more reason to carp. Until then, I think it's fair to observe the better winning trend and remain seated to the chair during the inevitable losses and once-in-a-while routes.
We are 4-3 in the last seven games.
With one addition: I can see why we went small. No one on our roster can guard Howard. If you play Troy at C, as opposed to Jeff or Roy or Rasho, you at least pull Howard away from the basket on offense which gives our guards and forwards a chance to score in the paint. Also, we have no PF on this team who can either guard Rashard Lewis or post him up with any regularity. Sliding Troy down to PF or having Jeff on him wouldn't have yielded any better results.
The only starting decision I disagreed with was starting Jack. I like JJ, but I'd have rather seen Daniels starting alongside Dun & Danny. Actually, I'd rather have seen Rush starting, but we all know that's not going to happen.
"A man with no belly has no appetite for life."
- Salman Rushdie
It's not one game that people are overreacting to. It's the fact that we're 17-28 and our defense appears to be getting worse instead of better.
The game was over before it started last night when we went small. Not that we ever really had a chance to beat Orlando anyway.
Giving up 135 points, in regulation even, is just never acceptable in my book. And it's not the first time we've given up 130+ points this season either.
Somebody mentioned the look on OBrien's face at one point last night. It was probably an expression of wondering how he could get some more scoring in the game.
I was willing to accept that maybe TPTB had dictated a high scoring team in order to win back some fans but going small ball against Orlando, leaving 3 point shooters uncovered, and trying to guard Dwight Howard with Murphy? That's a one game (bad) coaching move, not an order from Mount Conseco to score points first. Plus, even if there's an order to score points, it doesn't mean you leave a non-functioning defense intact and ignore the problems.
Would OBrien's problems be masked with a more talented team? Yes... at some point of talent upgrades I'm sure they would... But this also shows us here and now that OBrien couldn't maximize that more talented team any more than he can this one.
He served a purpose and that is helping to transition from the JO Diva, ego-driven, and undisciplined (on and off the court) Pacers to a team with some character and pride in the game as well as given them some confidence in their offensive abilities. But he's totally dropped the ball on developing anything of note to think things will be any different in the future. "No defense" is a losing proposition. You can't simply outscore your opponents. If you have a leaky boat, no matter how nice it is, if you don't address that leak eventually you sink.
OBrien is in the 4th quarter of his Pacer tenure and he's down considerably. The clock is ticking.
Last edited by Bball; 01-28-2009 at 03:53 PM.
Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.
"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."
I brought this up in the Pacers/Magic Game thread. When I look at the Magic lineup.....I fail to see why they are one of the best Perimeter/3pt defending teams in the league ( they rank Top 3 at home and Top 10 on the road ). Is the difference primarily in the Coaching, defensive scheme or simply due to the fact that they have the most Athletic Big Man that can dominate the Paint on the offensive and Defensive end?
Although one cannot deny the importance and impact that Howard is to the Low-Post and penetration defense though his shotblocking......the rest of their lineup is made up of PGs/SGs/SFs that I wouldn't consider great overall defenders or even any better then our platoon of PGs/SGs/SFs. At best....they have Pietrus who is an athletic GF that is a solid perimeter Defender...but not the smartest one.
I don't want to continue to drag this ( or any other ) post towards the typical "It's the Coach" thread.....I'm guessing it's a combination of them all ( Coach, Talent, execution of Defensive scheme ). But assuming that we will be stuck with JO'B for yet another season ( which is entirely possible despite our record ), I'm beginning to wonder if the best thing to do is to simply address the need for a shot-blocker ( something that we lack ) either through the Draft or through FA in the offseason.
Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
if it was just one game, we would be sitting above .500 and a lock for the playoffs.
problem is, we're not. our defense sucks beyond belief and has cost us many many games when our shooting goes cold.
as a team, we're number 1 in the eastern conference in points per game, rebounds per game, and assists per game. number 2 in the east in FT%. we're in the top half in FG% and 3PT %. very impressive figures.
so why are we 14th in the eastern conference standings?
you don't dominate every offensive NBA category yet have one of the worst records unless your defense is of the WNBA caliber.
if we continue to give up 106.9 points per game, we'll set an eastern conference record for opponents PPG in a season. Quite a feat........except for the fact that we'd be breaking our own record, which we set last year at 105.4. Coincidentally the year JOB was hired.
I would only add that I think that Marquis' return has had a far greater impact to the defense then anything. Again, to be fair, I'm going to hold judgement until I can see Marquis and Dunelavy does after a few more games on the defensive end and how it impacts the Team as a whole ( both has only been in the lineup together for 3 games only ). As most of us has noted....this defense is predicated on the Team as a whole understanding and properly implementing the defense....both of which are skills that Dunleavy and Marquis bring to the table.
Last edited by CableKC; 01-28-2009 at 04:08 PM.
Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
let me rephrase.....the record was over the past 10 years......you get my point though.
The defense has been better lately - I see definite improvement since Jeff has been starting and since Dun has been back.
Funny how everyone is blaming the small lineup for the loss - as soon as I saw the starting lineup I thought to myself - oh no if we lose by 1 point in triple OT many will blame the small lineup.
In fact the pacers only trailed by 1 point when they made their first substitution last night - so it wasn't the starting lineup that killed us
There are ten NBA teams that are worse defensively than the Pacers.
Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-28-2009 at 04:32 PM.
I didn't mind the small ball tactic because it made sense. You want to pull The Beast (Dwight Howard) out from the paint and force him to work at both ends of the court. Problem is when Murphy wasn't making his shots or driving inside and forcing Howard to adjust it negated that game plan. And we all know Foster's not an offensive threat and poor Hibbert just wasn't skilled enough to know how to handle him for what little time he did play against Howard. And frankly, I doubt Rasho would have faired better.Defense Defense Defense. Nothing frustrates me like bad basketball and 'no defense' is bad basketball. The coaching staff is putting these players in a position to fail by not addressing this. ....'No defense' and 'small ball' equally frustrate me (but then the two also go hand in hand usually).
Still, I share you frustrations in this one area: defending the Wings! (SCREAMING!!!! ) I could NOT believe the number of times Murphy, Quis, Graham and even Granger at times left Pietrus and Lewis open on the Wings!! There's just no way they should be cheating that much towards the paint knowing how good Orlando's shooters are. They were just asking to get burned last night. Frankly, there's just no excuse for that - NONE!!!!
Dwight's going to get his; let him even if it means you defending him as solid as you could but he still beat you down. Dwight's like a slimmer version of Shaq in his youth. You're just NOT going to stop him. He's too strong! But the Pacers COULD have limited the Magic's perimeter shooting if they had just found the open man (which even my wife, who has just started to under the game of basketball at the NBA level, was able to spot long before the Magic's offense had fully developed on some plays. Heck, she even rewound a few plays and pointed some things out I missed!!!! She's becoming quite good at that. )
Pacers' perimeter defense was absolutely terrible last night, and there's really no excuse for it whatsoever.
I was gonna say, it really wasn't that long ago that the league champion averaged 118 per game, and was considered a solid defensive team at 109 per game. You guys keep confusing slow pace with good defense, and its false.
UB can also point out that in '86-87, the three best teams were the leaders in defense FG%: the Lakers were #6, Boston was #5, and the Pistons were #3.
Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you
They either need to stay in a 2-3 Zone OR stay in Man-D, the latter I'd go with. Granted, the Pacers don't have many 1-on-1 defenders (Granger & Quis are our best options here), but if you can put a hand in the shooter's face just as he catches the ball or force him to take a bad shot BECAUSE you were in the right defensive position to disrupt the shooting motion, well, you've done your job. I didn't see that happen until very late in the 4Q when the game was clearly well out of reach.
Our Defensive Coordinator needs to take cheating towards the paint completely out of the equation. It's hurting this team rather than helping.
Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-28-2009 at 04:54 PM.