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Thread: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

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    Default Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    After two good discussions concerning "defense at the point of attack" and "wing defense", we now move on to the topic of "defending the low post".

    I'll discuss low post defensive concepts first.

    When a coaching staff puts together a defensive plan conceptually for an entire season and for a specific game, they have many different options about how to best defend a premier post player trying to recieve the ball and score on the low block:

    1. Do we PLAY BEHIND HIM, let him catch, and try and stop him one on one with little or no help?

    2. Do we PLAY BEHIND HIM, let him catch, and "dig" from the ballside wing area (usually from the post feeder himself, as discussed in the last thread) hoping to force him to throw the ball back outside to who it came from originally?

    3. Do we PLAY BEHIND HIM, and come with a "hard double" from somewhere else on the floor AFTER he catches the ball, or perhaps AFTER HE TAKES A DRIBBLE, or perhaps AS THE BALL IS IN MID AIR COMING TO HIM?

    4. Do we play "3/4" denial defense to try and keep him from catching the ball in the first place, and if so, which side should the defender be on?

    5. Do we choose to PLAY TOTALLY IN FRONT of the post, "flood" the help in behind the posted up player to prevent the lob, and then try to rotate outward as the ball as reversed?

    6. If we choose to "hard double" the post player, should we:
    ------Double off a particular weak player, regardless of where he is on the floor?
    ------Double from a particular area/spot on the floor, IRREGARDLESS of who that player we are leaving is?

    7. Is it possible for a defensive team to do multiple post defenses well, and should you change depending on who you are playing, or do the same things against everyone and force them to adjust to you?


    As you can see, this is a complicated issue........let's discuss all of this from a Pacer-centric point of view.

    PLAYING STRAIGHT UP

    The first option is the best obviously, but it takes a tremendous defensive individual player to be able to handle it. But, when you can play straight even 1 on 1 defense in the low post area with no help, it is a tremendous value to your normal overall team defensive scheme.

    More than anything else, this is why Peck and I loved Dale Davis so much I think. The Pacers simply haven't had a post player capable tough, strong, determined, or physical enough to handle this duty by himself since Dale Davis was here, and it is why he was so instrumental in the success our Pacers had when he was here.

    Looking for a player strong enough to hold his ground, and not to let an offensive player catch the ball so deep inside near the rim, needs to be a high priority for the Pacers in the future. Without a player like this, it forces you to use different and more complex defensive schemes to try and defend great (or even good) back to the basket players.

    Perhaps my biggest criticism of Jermaine O'neal was his inability to become this type of low post defender, capable of guarding the biggest and baddest post players in the league. JO made up for some of his lack of leg strength in holding position inside by being a superior shot blocker, but most of his defensive value came as a weakside defender, not guarding a guy posting him up personally. In fact, I often thought teams made major mistakes against us by not just attacking JO directly. JO was one of the best help defending bigs in basketball, but I thought he had a big and obvious deficiency in this area. JO also had extremely bad footwork in this area, often letting the player he was guarding inside drive a foot between his own, gaining leverage inside and forcing JO to make a "retreat step", letting the offensive player get even deeper position. This is post defensive play 101, and JO wasn't taught well in my view how to play with leverage, instead he got away with using great athleticism to compensate...an athleticism which fades over time as we can see now.

    Likewise, Jeff Foster isn't this type of defender either. He lacks the size and strength to be able to muscle up against big strong post players. He does have some quickness, and I think his footwork is better than average, but he just lacks strength, and evidently always will. It was probably a good decision overall for the Pacers to not develop Jeff to be much stronger and heavier in his youth (thereby reducing his agility and quickness and burst), but as his athleticism fades I wonder Jeff might be more useful if he gained weight and got stronger. Maybe not, but I think it is something worth considering at least.

    Now, I truly believe that Roy Hibbert may be able to be a long term solution for us in this key important role. He has the size, strength, and I think the tough guy attitude to be able to develop to be the man inside who lets us play more "straight up" in the low post. Obviously the game is always evolving, and Roy needs to shore up weaknesses in other areas of his game, but a guy who can play behind a guy in the low block and guard him without much help or a need to rotate your 4 other players is a huge advantage to have, and I am pretty sure that Roy Hibbert can be that guy for us for the next 10 years, if we have a coaching philosophy that values that as a skill/talent more highly than the current one does.

    DIGGING FROM THE BALL SIDE

    We discussed this in the last thread briefly, but let's go over it again.

    This is the preference for the more old fashioned coaches, who didn't want to complicate man to man defense with fancier rotations, and it is by far the most common at the high school or college level. Doing this doesn't require any switiching, any "rotating" from the weakside, and doesn't require your entire defense to move in unison.

    But, it is a fairly easy defensive tactic to beat by an intelligent offense, for a few different reasons. The main one being that is a very easy pass for a big man to make to throw it right back to the man who gave him the ball originally. Big men are often poor decision makers with the ball, but this tactic eliminates that issue for the offense.

    It also is very easy for the post player to throw the ball back out, "re-post" even better and deeper, and recieve a return pass right back inside to him. By doubling this way, the defense is allowing that situation to frequently occur.

    Lastly, if the offensive team has any coaching intelligence at all, they will put their best outside shooter as a post feeder to counter this "digging" tactic. This is why Reggie Miller was used by Indiana coaches as a primary post feeder, because if a team stupidly turned their head on Reggie to "dig" in the low block, Miller would just "relocate" to a slightly different spot, recieve an easy to make pass from our post player, and have a reasonably wide open shot.

    PLAYING BEHIND, FIGHTING FOR POSITION, THEN COMING WITH A HARD DOUBLE

    I mentioned the three different doubling options above: Doubling on the catch, doubling on the first dribble, and doubling as the ball is mid air.

    Almost anyone would tell you that you shouldn't do any of these every single time...instead, you need to put doubt in the post players mind to make him hesitate at least before making a play. This is where you need to be unpredictable. It all basically depends on how dominate the post player may be, and how desperate you are for him to be forced to get rid of it.

    Generally, coaches will have this in as a defensive call from the bench. A coach may use colors for example: "Red" meaning hard immediate double, "White" meaning double after the catch, "blue" meaning double only after the first dribble. Some teams may even have signs held up by assistant coaches, although that is normally a college tactic not used in the pros.

    Coaches are notorius control freaks we know, and to my knowledge no NBA coach currently does this, but does anyone think this might work?: Not calling the "double scheme" from the bench at all, but to instead let the players react on their own on when and how hard to double?

    THE CONCEPT OF "3/4" DENIAL

    This is really to be used in concert with other strategies. In the above examples when I talk about playing behind a man posting up, I don't mean just to let him catch it wherever he wants. Too many weak defensive players don't play defense UNTIL their man has the ball, when instead good defenders play defense BEFORE their man has the ball.

    The coaching decision here comes from WHICH SIDE of the post player do you want to try and deny. In other words, do you try and defend the "High Side" (side nearest the foul line) or "Low Side" (side nearest the baseline)? Obviously, if you can steal a pass as it is in mid air you teach your player to do that, and if they can't you teach them to slide their feet and play behind, to be between their man with the ball and the basket.

    There is no coaching consensus on this point. Some teach to always deny the high side (which is how my high school hall of fame coach taught it)...but that can leave you vulnerable to a lob occasionally, a drop step occasionally, and out of position to defend against a baseline drive. In fact, that little nugget of info is something I look for when scouting, so I can take advantage of a team who defends that way all the time.

    Others teach to always defend the low side. That can solve the above problems, but a clever team on offense can then adjust to that by attacking you with dump down passes from the high post, since you are easily sealed off playing that way. This is another scouting point, and a reason why a team should always if possible have "high/low" offensive sets in a game plan. You play my low post guy on his low side, you'll see lots of post feeds from the elbow by my teams!

    Still others teach to play either side depending on where they are in relation to the ball. In other words, play high side when the ball is above the foul line extended, low side when it is below the foul line extended. This takes more movement and work by your post player, and leaves him vulnerable at times as he is trying to shift from one position to the other.

    Those of you with an opinion or preference in this matter, feel free to give it. I've coached a long time, heard lots of discussion between us coaching geeks, and no one really agrees on how to teach it best.

    TOTALLY FRONT THE POST, FLOOD THE WEAKSIDE, AND RECOVER

    This is primarily what our current staff believes in, and is primarily the tactic our Pacers try each and every night, more than the other methods.

    It's design is to prevent a post player who is very good from recieving the basketball in the first place....which in theory isn't a bad idea. Also, by doing it against every opponent, theoretically your rotations out of it should get more steady and consistent.

    But this defensive concept has a lot of problems with it, as we see almost every night.

    First, many post players arent good enough to worry about this much. Many times I think we overreact to a post guy who doesnt deserve such respect. I distinctly remember a game against Philadelephia, where we seemed determined to keep the ball from Samuel Dalembert. Why? Dalembert is no real threat!

    Secondly, this leaves you vulnerable to quick ball reversals. Skip passes from one side to the other kill you, as does any penetration from the wing areas. The reason this is a problem is that your help defenders are SAGGED TOO LOW on the floor, having to get behind a post player. It is a small thing, but the 2 steps or so lower that the Pacer helpers have to sag vs playing it in a more conventional way means our slower guys have a larger area to try and recover to.

    Thirdly, because it requires more moving parts and more movement, you are even more open to be attacked by pass FAKES to the post. Often, just the threat of a post pass causes us to sag too deep, leaving us scrambling to defend a shooter to no avail.

    Fourth, you are severely weakened against a high post flash cut to the elbow area. Our sagging helpers cannot both sag behind a posted up player and simultaneously stop their own man cutting to the high post. This man cutting to the high post is a particularly effective tactic against Troy Murphy, who gets beat by this 5 times a game or more, and against Roy Hibbert, who is too slow to get there to defend the flasher and often ends up fouling him. On top of that, sometimes flash this guy to the high post, not only to feed him the ball there but to have him streak to the ballhandler for a "screen/roll" or "screen/pop" situation, leaving our bigs to have to scramble and move even more. Any team with a big man who can shoot from the perimeter can kill us with this tactic, such as Utah did with Mehmet Okur.

    Lastly, this is so physically demanding on our bigs that their minutes must be rationed. Combine this with our quick paced offense (which has been very effective admittedly) and your bigs are dragging late in games. You can either try and live with this as coaches or you can play more people, but that leaves you playing deeper and deeper into your bench using inferior players for too many minutes.

    There are specific teams that this works against better than other teams. I think this can work against teams that don't improvise well, who are inexperienced, or are selfish, or who have easy to guard personnel or systems. Theoretically, New Jersey, Oklahoma City, and perhaps tonight's opponent Charlotte are teams that this may have more success against than others, such as Utah, San Antonio, or Denver.

    IF YOU "HARD DOUBLE", HOW DO YOU DO IT?

    Your choices are to double of a specific player, no matter where he is on the floor, or double from a specific area on the floor, no matter who happens to be there.

    There are obvious problems with each, and a mixture is probably the smartest way to go about it. But, in general, when I am coaching and decide I have to double team someone in the low post due to an obvious mismatch, I personally like to double team from a specific area, usually for me at the high school level I choose the top of the key.

    Now, obviously this has issues. Leave the top of the key area consistently for very long, and a smart coach puts a big time shooter there, hoping you continue to rotate down from that area. But usually you can recover to that spot easier (its closer to your helpers in the lane area) and you can force that guy to make an extra pass to the weakside....and then you just have to hope you can scramble and recover well enough to get there to defend a shooter and not get broken down off the dribble if you "close out" out of control.....that's a coaching point you have to work on to get right.

    For years this is how most NBA teams defended the low post. Later on, Steve Fisher at Michigan began doing this at the college level, as the game began to evolve. As offenses got more proficient at defeating this all over, coaches got more creative and started doubling from exotic areas of the floor. I give Pat Riley and Chuck Daly credit for this, as they had to get creative to try and figure out ways to defend the triangle offense and Michael Jordan in particular, and then they adapted the "Jordan Rules" to everyday defensive concepts and planning.

    HOW MANY MULTIPLE THINGS CAN A TEAM DO WELL, AND HOW MANY DIFFERENT THINGS SHOULD YOU TRY AND DO, AND FOR WHAT REASONS?

    This is the central decision coaches have to make about everything. What are my priorites, and what do I believe I need to do most of all?

    It is in this last question where experience, playing together for long stretches of time, and long term stability are so important.

    In general, I believe coaches do tend to complicate the game way too much. I think this was and is an issue for Rick Carlisle (offensively for him) and I think it is an issue for Jim O'Brien defensively.

    However, I can also tell you that players are smarter than the general public gives them credit for in my opinion. So what a particular team can handle has to be figured out by the coaching staff. I know I have had teams I gave very detailed scouting reports to, and I've had others who I gave very boiled down and simple plans to. This is an area where coaching becomes an art form, and not a science.


    I know this was a typical and long T-bird thread, but I hope it continues the long, in depth conversation we are having about our Pacers man to man defensive issues.

    As always, the above is just my opinion.

    Tbird
    Last edited by thunderbird1245; 01-26-2009 at 06:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    It sounds like Jim is running a defense best suited for small ball, and asking a conventional lineup to pull off an extreme version of it. I can't say I like that.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    you should write a book. Very very excellent analysis
    Passion, Pride, Playoffs, Pacers

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Very good post. The way we defend the low post is at the root of our problems on defense. I agree we flood the post, flood the weakside and attempt to recover. Personally, I have fronted a bigger, better post player and it can be successful, but that was not against professional NBA players.

    I tend to think good NBA teams can easily beat that scheme with some quick passes. That's why good passing teams like Utah and San Antonio cooked us alive. No, I don't think anyone can compete in the playoffs and be successful with that strategy.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman View Post
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    you should write a book. Very very excellent analysis
    I believe he is. I don't think he knows it yet. Plenty of bloggers out there have been optioned to reprint their online posts as a hard copy volume, I would say that Thunderbird is on his way to writing a very good "basketball master class" book.

    T-bird, just go to Barnes and Noble or Borders and start looking at sports strategy books. Find out who is publishing them, and contact the publisher's development editors. The editor will then ask you to write a "book proposal" and if they like it, they'll present that proposal in a meeting. If you're given the green light from the higher ups, you'll be given a contract and a schedule and next thing you know (about a year and a half to two years later), you'll be a published author.

    And I'll be at the front of the line to get my copy signed.
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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbird1245
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    Almost anyone would tell you that you shouldn't do any of these every single time...instead, you need to put doubt in the post players mind to make him hesitate at least before making a play. This is where you need to be unpredictable.
    I imagine this is the most important point in the whole post. Good stuff and much appreciated.
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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Thank you to all who have written in with so many nice things to say. I don't think my posts are really worthy of being compiled into a book and sold (unless I priced the book at about 25 cents or so) but I apprecuiate the kind words.

    That actually does give me an idea though. Someday, I think I will start a thread about high quality basketball books, maybe make a list for everyone to contribute and give their favorites too...but that's for another day.

    Just for a preview of the rest of these defensive examinations, I'll tell you all that I have "Help side defensive techniques", "Fighting over screens away from the ball", "Defending the screen/roll game strategies", and "Putting it all together: a summary" all still to come to complete the series.

    These have taken some effort to write and type, so in a way, while I've enjoyed putting them together, I'll be glad when they are done.

    Tbird

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    Now, I truly believe that Roy Hibbert may be able to be a long term solution for us in this key important role. He has the size, strength, and I think the tough guy attitude to be able to develop to be the man inside who lets us play more "straight up" in the low post. Obviously the game is always evolving, and Roy needs to shore up weaknesses in other areas of his game, but a guy who can play behind a guy in the low block and guard him without much help or a need to rotate your 4 other players is a huge advantage to have, and I am pretty sure that Roy Hibbert can be that guy for us for the next 10 years, if we have a coaching philosophy that values that as a skill/talent more highly than the current one does.
    this gives hope for the future. i remember that you were comparing granger to paul pierce long before he turned into a scoring machine. if hibbert does become a dale davis type, that's two great pieces for future pacer teams.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    I seriously question if Hibbert can ever be the post defender we need because he is so slow, can't jump, he'll be taken advantage of in pick and rolls and I fear a Rik Smits type of defender - foul prone, slow, and more of a liability than anything.

    Dale Davis from the moment he walked onto an NBA floor was a huge defensive presense and a factor - so comparing Roy to Dale is not even close to a good comparison.

    Dale Davis in his rookie season committed 191 fouls in his 1301 minutes played. Roy has already committed 87 fouls in 426 minutes
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-27-2009 at 01:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    I am in the process of reading this, as always, thanks T bird.

    I want to say that Roy should stop trying to draw charges and patrol the paint as a shot blocker. He has the length to affect a game this way.

    I've said this before, and this is coming from a guy who thinks positioning and charges are one of the single best plays in basketball.

    If Roy is going to get his Rookie initiation by getting fouls called left and right, I wish he was doing it by swatting some shots to row G, not being late to try to draw a charge. It would set him up in the refs eyes as a guy in the future who is a shot blocker and may start to get the benefit of the doubt down the road.

    This fits his skill set, this fits the team need of what could be a huge disruption to the other teams offense. Watch Dwight Howard tonight and see what an impact a shotblocker has on EVERYTHING. (No, I'm not comparing the two, just an example of a shotblocker)

    Dale Davis was a great rebounder, a great low post defender, a very good shot blocker, one of the toughest guys in the league in the last 20 years, imho.

    I hope Roy can be a good scorer and a guy who can alter/block shots someday. He'll probably never be an enforcer, rebounder, or great low post one on one defender, imo

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    I am eating this stuff up.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    TBird, I was going to ask this in your post regarding Wing/Perimeter Defense...but decided to wait until you discussed Low-Post defense.

    Next season, given the liklihood that TPTB will only be able to spend limited resources on addressing our defensive needs, I'm guessing that ( at most ), we would only be able to do one of the following next offseason:

    1 ) Pursue the best athletic Lock-Down perimeter defender available that we can afford that costs about $4-5 mil per season in the 2009 Offseason FA Market

    2 ) Pursue the best Low-Post defender available that we can afford that costs about $4-5 mil per season in the 2009 Offseason FA Market

    3 ) Try to go after a RolePlaying perimeter defender that will likely be cheap to sign ( like Quinton Ross ) and then some rotational PF/C that would be considered "slightly above average" when it comes to defending in the Low-Post ( as to who, I have no clue )


    It would seem that we can either put all of our "eggs" in one basket and address a single defensive "need" ( either Perimeter or Low-Post defense ) OR try to "split up the eggs" and try to "adequately" address both defensive needs as best as we can ( fully knowing that we won't be getting the best player out there to fill that need ). IF you had to choose one aspect of our defense to focus our attention on ( specifically choose between going after a Wing/Perimeter Defender FA or a Low-Post Defender FA ), what specific Defensive need should we try to address?
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-30-2009 at 01:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    I wanted to bump this and tell T bird that this was very informative. Great job!! Probably one of my favorite breakdowns you've done since the predraft stuff, which were also great.
    Last edited by Speed; 01-30-2009 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Yeah I likes it all.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I seriously question if Hibbert can ever be the post defender we need because he is so slow, can't jump, he'll be taken advantage of in pick and rolls and I fear a Rik Smits type of defender - foul prone, slow, and more of a liability than anything.

    Dale Davis from the moment he walked onto an NBA floor was a huge defensive presence and a factor - so comparing Roy to Dale is not even close to a good comparison.

    Dale Davis in his rookie season committed 191 fouls in his 1301 minutes played. Roy has already committed 87 fouls in 426 minutes
    Is that a fair comparison? I only mean the last part. Were they calling fouls the same way when Dale came up as they do now? I'm just asking because you'll have a better sense of the changes from then to now.

    I'm very hopeful for Hibbert but I can't imagine him ever comparing to Dale as a defensive asset. That's why we need to find a Dale-like power forward to complement our Rik-like center of the future.
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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    I agree, Putman.

    ....and the search for Dale Davis continues.... and not even and older version of him was enough a couple of years ago!!

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Is that a fair comparison? I only mean the last part. Were they calling fouls the same way when Dale came up as they do now? I'm just asking because you'll have a better sense of the changes from then to now.

    I'm very hopeful for Hibbert but I can't imagine him ever comparing to Dale as a defensive asset. That's why we need to find a Dale-like power forward to complement our Rik-like center of the future.

    You should forward this comment to the TPTB. If I could pick two I would get Camby for
    the pf and Ariza for the perimeter defender. I suspect they already know this.
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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Lots of great commentary in this thread, and I wanted to give my final answers on some things brought up before I move on to the next thread in this series, which is going to be on "help side" defense.

    To UncleBuck, Putnam, and Speed: Comparing Hibbert to Dale Davis

    I wasn't trying to say that I think Hibbert will ever be the type of defender Dale Davis was on the perimeter in terms of hedging on ball screens, nor did I mean to say I thought he could be the kind of shotblocker and rebounder Davis was.

    I meant to limit my comparison to the situation of being big and strong enough to single cover a legitimate center in the low post post.....requiring no help from our other 4 players in this SPECIFIC situation. I think Hibbert projects as a guy who can defend a similar low post, back to the basket type of player without need of much assistance. Roy will struggle more than Dale ever did if this player either faces up and goes off the dribble, gets involved in screen/roll, or drifts to the perimeter. Still, a true back to the bucket low post defender is an important thing to have on the roster. Brad Miller was pretty decent at this too I suppose, but I think Roy will end up being better than Miller in this regard.


    To Speed: Regarding Roy taking charges vs being a physical enforcer/shotblocker

    I too would like to see Roy Hibbert lay the wood to somebody who dares drive the lane against us. I think sending a message like that would be very beneficial to him personally and to the rest of the Pacers from a mental standpoint. I think Hibbert does have the toughness, strength, size, and cajones to do this for us someday, but he will probably need to be coached up to do so. This staff is emphasizing taking charges instead of shotblocking or giving hard fouls....in itself that isn't a bad thing necessarily, but I have a different role in my mind for Hibbert.

    To CableKC: A wing defender vs a post defender...which one do we need to emphasize?

    This question is at the heart of what a GM and a head coach have got to do, and is where putting a team together really becomes an art form. You have to analyze many moving parts, including your team scheme, your existing personnel, the key opponents you need to beat in order to become elite, who you can realistically acquire, how much money you have to spend, etc etc.

    From a theoretical and practical standpoint, I think I would if forced to choose put the most importance on finding an elite wing defender. I say that because I think the game and the rules favor slashing perimeter play now, and in order to go anywhere in the East we will need to compete with Dwayne Wade, Derrick Rose, Paul Pierce, and LeBron James for the foreseeable future.

    I also think that Hibbert, as I said earlier, will prove to be an excellent one on one defender against a certain type of big man, so in some ways I believe that issue is at least partially already on the roster...although we need to add another piece there.

    I'm glad you mentioned Ross, as I have been touting him for a long time. He will continue to be a cheap alternative for a team that actually values one on one perimeter defenders. To be fair, Ross has almost no offensive game, although he needs only to furter develop his three point ability to really help a team as a Bruce Bowen type of player.

    To Owl: Regarding Trevor Ariza

    I too love Ariza, and I think if I ran the Pacers obtaining him as a free agent would be my number one priority this off season. I think he will be cheaper than most think, he is the near the same age as our core players, and would likely agree to come to Indiana for around the MLE, a committment to be a starter, and to play a big role for us.

    Making a move like that would likely require moving Mike Dunleavy however, which is something I have no problem with but most others would.

    Thanks for all the good high quality posts in this thread....I'll have part 4 up shortly.

    Tbird

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    After seeing Trevor punk out during our last encounter with them, I can't say I want to pay money to see him wear INDIANA on his chest.

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    Default Re: Comprehensive defense examination thread, part III: Defending the low post

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    To CableKC: A wing defender vs a post defender...which one do we need to emphasize?

    This question is at the heart of what a GM and a head coach have got to do, and is where putting a team together really becomes an art form. You have to analyze many moving parts, including your team scheme, your existing personnel, the key opponents you need to beat in order to become elite, who you can realistically acquire, how much money you have to spend, etc etc.

    From a theoretical and practical standpoint, I think I would if forced to choose put the most importance on finding an elite wing defender. I say that because I think the game and the rules favor slashing perimeter play now, and in order to go anywhere in the East we will need to compete with Dwayne Wade, Derrick Rose, Paul Pierce, and LeBron James for the foreseeable future.

    I also think that Hibbert, as I said earlier, will prove to be an excellent one on one defender against a certain type of big man, so in some ways I believe that issue is at least partially already on the roster...although we need to add another piece there.

    I'm glad you mentioned Ross, as I have been touting him for a long time. He will continue to be a cheap alternative for a team that actually values one on one perimeter defenders. To be fair, Ross has almost no offensive game, although he needs only to furter develop his three point ability to really help a team as a Bruce Bowen type of player.
    We've discussed this various times on getting a player like Ross. I only know of him on what I've read about him here and there...knowing only that he's a solid perimeter defender but haven't really watched his game. Based on the assumption that you have paid enough attention to him to properly evaluate him....I understand the need to get a Strong Perimeter Defender ( just so that players like Granger don't have to guard the opponent's best scoring WingMan ), do you think that he would be a good/strong/aggressive/quick enough type of Perimeter Defending RolePlayer that we would want to guard Players like Lebron, Kobe, Wade or Rose?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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