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Thread: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

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    Default Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    A deal where we bring in a Brand, a Camby, or someone like that makes much more sense if the Pacers were .500 or a couple games over alreayd. Even adding someone like Brand and Camby to this team would probably only push us to the 7 or 8 spot. And with the concerns over Brand's injury, and the fact that Camby is getting up there in age are they really worth what we'd have to give up to get them?

    I do think the Pacers have the ability to be both active and make a deal that improves the team both now and in the future at the deadline, but I think it is much more likely we go after a young big man with a lot of potential.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    I think it is because good big men are hard to find and the young ones need time to develop. I myself would be ok with an older big man on the cheap but also get another big man to develop. We have hibby at the five spot, but we need another young at the four spot to develop. I am not saying finance it with them farm, but look to the upcoming draft as the starting point.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Who are these young big men everyone wants to get? Since when do teams let go of talented young big men for role players? The truth is we don't have great pieces to offer anybody in a trade even if there was one available. We have some expiring contracts, a bunch of overpaid guys, a few solid role players, and a few rookies who have yet to show much on an NBA floor and Danny Granger. So unless you want to offer Granger in a package for someone like Bosh, you don't have many options.

    It's all a gamble. You could trade for some young big man and he never works out or gets hurt. You can try and build through the draft and your picks wind up busts. You can sign a free agent who goes Shaun Livingston the first game out. You can't let those things scare you.

    Also, Elton Brand is just about to turn 29 years old. Regardless of what people have said on here, he has been very durable. Most of those people don't even know that his injury was an achilles. Achilles injuries are not as nearly as dangerous as a knee injury. He has played pretty well so far this year. He hasn't been his old self, but not far from it. And there are many other reasons you could point to. Lack of shooters to spread the floor, blending in with new team mates, learning a new offense, etc. Sure the injury has played a part, but how many players would be their old self right away after sitting out a year? His talent hasn't left him, and his injury hasn't debilitated him. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to average 15 and 10 considering all these factors.

    If Brand regains his old form, and I think he will, we would have gotten a steal and have a very good big man just barely in his prime to pair with Granger who is nearly the same age. He has great character, is a team player and plays both ends. He also has been one of the best rebounders in the league throughout his career. That to me sounds a lot less risky than waiting on some team to offer you a young unproven big man, who they have already given up on enough to let him go for cheap, and hoping he turns into a player.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Taterhead
    Who are these young big men everyone wants to get? Since when do teams let go of talented young big men for role players?
    Great question. I have no problem going after a young big, but who's available that can be had? I understand questioning the rationale of a veteran big, but then who might we target amongst younger guys at the position via trade? Via the draft seems much more likely, but aren't we talking trade here?Ultimately, I don't particularly care how we address the needs, but the defensive (perimeter, interior) needs are painfully obvious.

    I also still think the jury is very much out on HIbbert and Rush in the area of future development. I'm still thinking their most likely projection is reliable second unit guys, although they could certainly surprise me. So I don't think they significantly answer or short term defensive shortcomings. The help in that area needs to be immediate, not long-term project. Admittedly, both our current rooks might benefit from a different style of play.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    I also still think the jury is very much out on HIbbert and Rush in the area of future development. I'm still thinking their most likely projection is reliable second unit guys, although they could certainly surprise me.
    I think Hibbert can be a reliable starter - just not in JOB's system (or D'Antoni's just so nobody thinks I'm lobbying for a trade). I agree on Rush - unless he becomes an outstanding, lock-down type defender I see him as a 7th-8th man.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    I personally don't want Brand here, but some interior D is badly needed around here. If for nothing else, it will at least give some of the fans the idea that management is as committed to winning as the players are. I am sure the Simons would love to sell some more tickets....Of course one could imply that the Simons should've/could've been doing something long ago.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffg-body View Post
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    I think it is because good big men are hard .
    Flannery O'Connor concurs.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Indy's point is that these guys are more like finishing pieces than building blocks. While a risk of this type probably will be necessary at some point, it would probably be premature for the Pacers right now. They are simply too far away from contending to maximize the benefits of these guys.

    Camby is a good defender with an OK contract, but it's difficult to characterize him as a game changer.

    Brand, who may have the talent to help this team, also is far more problematic. While he's been largely durable over his career, he has had two different significant injuries over the past two seasons. Last year, his achilles cost him 74 of 82 games. This season, a shoulder injury has cost him 18 of his team's 46 games, and significantly hampered his effectiveness. In January, he's only averaging 7 points and 5 boards a night and has been very inconsistent.

    Also, while he's only 29, it is important to recognize that he's in his 10th season in the NBA. Like with a car, it ain't the age, it's the mileage. While it's possible that he's still in his prime, it's far more likely that he's closer to the end of his prime than to the beginning.

    Finally, and most disconcerting, is the fact that he's owed $66 million over the four seasons following this one. This would be a mistake that would be difficult to unmake. I have no idea if Philly is actually trying to move him, but, if they are, it would mean they considered his signing a mistake. That would be the first one, but they'll likely be able to find suitors for Brand because of the reasons people around here find him attractive. However, if the team that takes comes to learn that it was a mistake, for injuries, chemistry, whatever, then Brand simply becomes a bad contract. Keep in mind that Elton Brand has played on exactly one winning team over the course of his career. It is prudent to be worried about the Pacers' ability to survive another mistake of such magnitude.

    Additionally, there is a certain whimsy to the nature of these "let's get so-and-so" suggestions. They rarely, if ever, fully address the salary and luxury tax implications. They rarely, if ever, provide the rationale for why Philly (or the other team) would be interested in our assets. They rarely, if ever, discuss what marketable assets we have. They rarely, if ever, discuss how the new player will fit into the team, now and in the future.

    I don't wish to put words in Indy's mouth, I think that he believes that we'd be wiser looking to the draft for a Jordan Hill, Patrick Patterson, or Gani Lawal. I can't speak comprehensively on any of those guys, but they are listed as top PF prospects.

    I also wonder if he, like I, thinks that a back-to-the-basket player like Brand is not necessarily the perfect fit here. It is my opinion that this team is in less need of a post game than a post/interior defender. In my mind's eye, the ideal is a Dale Davis or a Charles Oakley. A latter day Cliff Robinson would be a nice fit, IMO, as well.

    It's not that Indy, or I, wouldn't like to have a talent like Elton Brand. It's just that we struggle to understand why there is a constant, almost reflexive reaction to league news that we should "get that guy," yet there is almost never any apparent learning curve towards articulating the approach, costs, and benefits of actually trying to get him. In effect, the Brand conversation becomes the Bosh conversation becomes the Landry conversation becomes the John Doe conversation. Only the names have been changed to protect the (not-so) innocent.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    I like the idea of Camby more than Brand because Camby's contract is shorter. I would rather see the Pacers make a trade for a veteran than younger, inexperienced player.

    I feel like a younger player would not be a progressive step for this franchise. The team already has youth: Hibbert, Rush, McRoberts, and yes, Granger is young too. What this team is missing is the Sam Perkins, the Byron Scott, the Chris Mullin, etc. as well as a solid power forward that can defend the interior and rebound the basketball like a machine. I'm not sure that trading for a young big would address the teams needs any more than the current roster is addressing the needs. We have youth. We also have a first and second round pick in the 2009 draft to continue to add more youth to the team.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
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    I like the idea of Camby more than Brand because Camby's contract is shorter. I would rather see the Pacers make a trade for a veteran than younger, inexperienced player.

    I feel like a younger player would not be a progressive step for this franchise. The team already has youth: Hibbert, Rush, McRoberts, and yes, Granger is young too. What this team is missing is the Sam Perkins, the Byron Scott, the Chris Mullin, etc. as well as a solid power forward that can defend the interior and rebound the basketball like a machine. I'm not sure that trading for a young big would address the teams needs any more than the current roster is addressing the needs. We have youth. We also have a first and second round pick in the 2009 draft to continue to add more youth to the team.
    I don't disagree with the veteran angle, I'm just not sure the franchise has the assets to draw one, or can afford the throw $66+mm into the kitty.

    Joe Smith's name was kicked around earlier this year, and I think that's a decent fit.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    After watching Uconn and Louisville last night I think Thabeet will be a much better defender
    and rebounder than Hibbert. He is just a better player. But he will be gone long before the
    Pacers pick in the upcoming draft unless they get lucky in the lottery or via trade.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    A deal where we bring in a Brand, a Camby, or someone like that makes much more sense if the Pacers were .500 or a couple games over alreayd. Even adding someone like Brand and Camby to this team would probably only push us to the 7 or 8 spot. And with the concerns over Brand's injury, and the fact that Camby is getting up there in age are they really worth what we'd have to give up to get them?

    I do think the Pacers have the ability to be both active and make a deal that improves the team both now and in the future at the deadline, but I think it is much more likely we go after a young big man with a lot of potential.
    Brand and Camby are in totally different situations because of their contracts. To me it makes complete sense to go after Camby, but Brand is much more of a gamble. Camby is a veteran big with a short contract. If we could get him fairly cheaply and he pushed us into the playoffs, it would be worth it. You have to take playoff revenues into account. I think getting a share of playoff revenues is worth far more to a franchise that's losing money than the few draft slots that we may save by not making a move.

    I'd love to see us go after a young big with potential, but I just don't see any that are available, though if Bosh was available I'd give up everything short of Danny to get him.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Going to the title of the thread, the reason everyone thinks the Pacers should go after players is because their overall talent level sucks. You get past Granger and you can argue that every other player would be a reserve on a good team.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Indy's point is that these guys are more like finishing pieces than building blocks. While a risk of this type probably will be necessary at some point, it would probably be premature for the Pacers right now. They are simply too far away from contending to maximize the benefits of these guys.

    Camby is a good defender with an OK contract, but it's difficult to characterize him as a game changer.

    Brand, who may have the talent to help this team, also is far more problematic. While he's been largely durable over his career, he has had two different significant injuries over the past two seasons. Last year, his achilles cost him 74 of 82 games. This season, a shoulder injury has cost him 18 of his team's 46 games, and significantly hampered his effectiveness. In January, he's only averaging 7 points and 5 boards a night and has been very inconsistent.

    Also, while he's only 29, it is important to recognize that he's in his 10th season in the NBA. Like with a car, it ain't the age, it's the mileage. While it's possible that he's still in his prime, it's far more likely that he's closer to the end of his prime than to the beginning.

    Finally, and most disconcerting, is the fact that he's owed $66 million over the four seasons following this one. This would be a mistake that would be difficult to unmake. I have no idea if Philly is actually trying to move him, but, if they are, it would mean they considered his signing a mistake. That would be the first one, but they'll likely be able to find suitors for Brand because of the reasons people around here find him attractive. However, if the team that takes comes to learn that it was a mistake, for injuries, chemistry, whatever, then Brand simply becomes a bad contract. Keep in mind that Elton Brand has played on exactly one winning team over the course of his career. It is prudent to be worried about the Pacers' ability to survive another mistake of such magnitude.

    Additionally, there is a certain whimsy to the nature of these "let's get so-and-so" suggestions. They rarely, if ever, fully address the salary and luxury tax implications. They rarely, if ever, provide the rationale for why Philly (or the other team) would be interested in our assets. They rarely, if ever, discuss what marketable assets we have. They rarely, if ever, discuss how the new player will fit into the team, now and in the future.

    I don't wish to put words in Indy's mouth, I think that he believes that we'd be wiser looking to the draft for a Jordan Hill, Patrick Patterson, or Gani Lawal. I can't speak comprehensively on any of those guys, but they are listed as top PF prospects.

    I also wonder if he, like I, thinks that a back-to-the-basket player like Brand is not necessarily the perfect fit here. It is my opinion that this team is in less need of a post game than a post/interior defender. In my mind's eye, the ideal is a Dale Davis or a Charles Oakley. A latter day Cliff Robinson would be a nice fit, IMO, as well.

    It's not that Indy, or I, wouldn't like to have a talent like Elton Brand. It's just that we struggle to understand why there is a constant, almost reflexive reaction to league news that we should "get that guy," yet there is almost never any apparent learning curve towards articulating the approach, costs, and benefits of actually trying to get him. In effect, the Brand conversation becomes the Bosh conversation becomes the Landry conversation becomes the John Doe conversation. Only the names have been changed to protect the (not-so) innocent.

    Your post was an enjoyable read. Everytime some player is "supposedly" available there immediately is a cry to get that player. Mortgage the farm if necessary to get that said player. It reminds me of 2 years ago when it was said Philly was interested in trading Iverson. The call went out from the hinderland to get Iverson. Philly put the parameters of wanting draft picks, expirings, and a good player in return. It made no difference what Philly wanted b/c those Pacers fans that wanted Iverson weren't listening. They didn't see the Pacers not having the assets Philly said they wanted. All they could see was putting an allstar with JO. It was the answer to becoming a real powerhouse. Even after the trade with Denver was completed, there were some who boohooed about the Pacers not getting AI. They still refused to accept or understand the Pacers didn't have what Philly said they wanted in order to do a deal. I don't think to this day they still understand. I for one don't ever believe Granger would be the player he is today if some people's wants of getting Iverson had come to fruiition. I never wanted Iverson, and am quite thankful he never became a Pacer. I was fine that he got traded to Denver where he never took the Nuggets anywhere, and I'm more than elated he's now in Detroit working all his greatness. Brand has a terrible contract and has injury issues. The Pacers have already had enough of both. JMOAA

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    Brand and Camby are in totally different situations because of their contracts. To me it makes complete sense to go after Camby, but Brand is much more of a gamble. Camby is a veteran big with a short contract. If we could get him fairly cheaply and he pushed us into the playoffs, it would be worth it.
    Good point. This is my feeling, as well. I'm not too hot on Brand, but I'd be very interested in Camby, or even Joe Smith for that matter. Bosh is enticing, but I find it hard to believe we'd have what's needed to make it happen.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Count nailed my feelings. Pretty much to a T.

    And when I say young big, why does it have to be some well known guy? The last young big we traded for was buried on the bench in Portland and he turned out ok.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    Count nailed my feelings. Pretty much to a T.

    And when I say young big, why does it have to be some well known guy? The last young big we traded for was buried on the bench in Portland and he turned out ok.
    It certainly doesn't have to be a well-known guy, but I've spent a fair amount of time looking over rosters, and I really can't find many.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Should've made a play for Al Jefferson imo. He would've been a nice, somewhat under the radar guy to go out and get.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Our talent level isn't that bad. We have an All-Star at SF and, when taking into account depth, an above-average backcourt. Positions 1-3, we're unquestionably a playoff caliber team. Our biggest problem - by far - is our sissy soft frontcourt. If we could use expiring contract(s) packaged with young talent and/or draft pick to trade for a proven big man, I think we'd be pretty damn good. Easier said than done, I know.

    As far as unproven talent, Tyrus Thomas and Anthony Randolph both interest me as does J.J. Hickson from the Cavs. The former two shouldn't be that hard to obtain, and if you offered the Cavs a package that would increase their chances at a title, I think they may give up J.J. DeAndre Jordan is looking good, too. It's starting to look like a lot of teams screwed up when passing him over, including us.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by HCPacerIN View Post
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    Should've made a play for Al Jefferson imo. He would've been a nice, somewhat under the radar guy to go out and get.
    Al Jefferson was never under the radar. It took KG get him out of Boston. I don't think we ever had the assets to bring him to Indy. If I remember correctly, we tried to get Jefferson from Boston for JO and got stonewalled.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3887072


    Source: Brand to have surgery

    Comment Email Print
    By Marc Stein
    ESPN.com
    Archive

    Elton Brand's first season in Philadelphia is coming to an abrupt ending.

    Brand
    Sources close to the situation told ESPN.com on Thursday afternoon that Brand will undergo season-ending shoulder surgery Monday after a failed attempt to play through the injury. The Sixers' marquee summer signing has averaged a mere 5.7 points and 4.7 rebounds in less than 20 minutes per game in six outings since Dec. 17. He sat out 16 games after dislocating his shoulder in a home game against the Milwaukee Bucks. The former All-Star, who turns 30 on March 11, managed to play nearly nine minutes in Tuesday's one-point loss to the Boston Celtics, sitting out the entire second half. After an Achilles injury that limited him to eight games last season with the Clippers, Brand signed a five-year deal worth nearly $80 million with Philadelphia in July to end his six-season stay in Los Angeles. Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quis View Post
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    Ouch. That signing backfired on Philly pretty badly. They better hope Brand rebounds back into great form next season, because no one is going to want him with his new injury issues and his contract.
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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    Al Jefferson was never under the radar. It took KG get him out of Boston. I don't think we ever had the assets to bring him to Indy. If I remember correctly, we tried to get Jefferson from Boston for JO and got stonewalled.

    Even back then, I would have traded JO for Jefferson straight up and felt guilty of taking advantage of Ainge/Boston.

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    Default Re: Why does everyone think the Pacers should go after Brand et. al.?

    Hmmmmm.....

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