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Thread: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

  1. #1

    Default Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Was at this and last friday's games and I am completely puzzled by his rotations. I understand many don't like the idea of tanking for a draft pick, and I can respect that position. But what I don't understand is that although we are mathematically not out of the playoffs, we might as well be. With that said, I'm not suggesting here that we tank, but given that the season (or at least the playoffs) are over for us, why isn't he playing the rookies? I can understand giving Stephen Graham a few minutes; he might actually turn into a decent 3rd guard or bench player. But tonight O'Brien put Maceo Baston in...my question is this, why? Baston has peaked, he will never be anything more than he is now, and after this season he will either retire or return to Europe. Same with Diener, he will always be relegated to a 3rd string role in the NBA, and won't get any better. Why not let Hibbert take some lumps, or Rush, or even McRoberts?
    It just seems to me that Coach O'Brien should recognize that the future lies in the rookies and maybe McRoberts...and the other guys are never going to get better, will never get you to the next level, and likely won't even be here if/when this team reaches the next level.

    Can anyone explain the logic with what he is doing?

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    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Not another O'Brien thread...


  3. #3

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Not another O'Brien thread...
    No, this isn't a 'bash O'Brien' thread at all. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And with Bird attending games, surely he wonders what is going on, too.

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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Not another O'Brien thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    No, this isn't a 'bash O'Brien' thread at all. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And with Bird attending games, surely he wonders what is going on, too.
    I didn't call it a "Bash O'Brien" thread. Bash or not, there already is a huge thread of JOB comments/questions/criticisms/concerns.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=43511
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 01-24-2009 at 03:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    Was at this and last friday's games and I am completely puzzled by his rotations. I understand many don't like the idea of tanking for a draft pick, and I can respect that position. But what I don't understand is that although we are mathematically not out of the playoffs, we might as well be. With that said, I'm not suggesting here that we tank, but given that the season (or at least the playoffs) are over for us, why isn't he playing the rookies? I can understand giving Stephen Graham a few minutes; he might actually turn into a decent 3rd guard or bench player. But tonight O'Brien put Maceo Baston in...my question is this, why? Baston has peaked, he will never be anything more than he is now, and after this season he will either retire or return to Europe. Same with Diener, he will always be relegated to a 3rd string role in the NBA, and won't get any better. Why not let Hibbert take some lumps, or Rush, or even McRoberts?
    It just seems to me that Coach O'Brien should recognize that the future lies in the rookies and maybe McRoberts...and the other guys are never going to get better, will never get you to the next level, and likely won't even be here if/when this team reaches the next level.

    Can anyone explain the logic with what he is doing?
    By no means are we out of the playoff hunt. We are 3.5 games out of the 8th seed. How does that make us out of it? Did we magically fast-forward to the middle of April? My calendars still say January.

    You kind of are suggesting that we should tank, because apparently the season is over according to you. (Please tell me why.)

    Baston was put in tonight as a set of fresh legs, and to assess his defensive presence. He needed to give Murph/Foster a rest, and Rasho needed some help.

    I would like to know where you get your information, either that or you must be some kind of fortune teller.
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 01-24-2009 at 03:41 AM.

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    Member Mr. Sobchak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    By no means are we out of the playoff hunt. We are 3.5 games out of the 8th seed. How does that make us out of it? Did we magically fast-forward to the middle of April? My calendars still say January.

    You kind of are suggesting that we should tank, because apparently the season is over according to you. (Please tell me why.)

    Baston was put in tonight as a set of fresh legs, and to assess his defensive presence. He needed to give Murph/Foster a rest, and Rasho needed some help.

    I would like to know where you get your information, either that or you must be some kind of fortune teller.

    I think his point is that barring some unforseen change we havent been playing well enough to make the playoffs even though we are only 3.5 games back. I would probably agree with this.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peskoe97 View Post
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    I think his point is that barring some unforseen change we havent been playing well enough to make the playoffs even though we are only 3.5 games back. I would probably agree with this.

    According to this article posted in IndyStar after the win over Houston:

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...TS04/901240445

    Mr. Granger believes his team is just a win streak away from being in the
    mix of things. I would probably agree with this.

    Taking this a step further, if they can get on a streak and continue to play
    slightly better than .500 ball for the rest of the season, they definately will
    be in the mix of things. They very well could end up being one of these
    teams even a top seed "doesn't want to see" come playoff time.

    This is a pivotal moment for this team and I am wagering they recognise it,
    and will seize the opportunity.

  8. #8
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Let me go a slightly differant route here and say that the pacers would have been better off all along giving Maceo Baston some quality min. on the floor.

    Did anybody notice something vs. the Rockets? We didn't go small all game long and guess what, it worked. No not just again Yao, in the second half he didn't play. But we actually played with two big men for most of the game and by God our defense was better for it.

    Maceo, IMO, should have been getting some spot min. all season long as far as I'm concerned because other than McRoberts he is our only big who plays above the rim on defense. I have never understood why he has been relegated to the 12th man role on our team.

    I know I am in the vast minority on this but I believe that if you are going to run then you need to use a deep bench and not just play guards and small forwards.

    Maceo is fairly quick and somewhat athletic, I have never questioned his basketball I.Q. and he can score at the rim.

    Does Troy Murphy really need 38 min. a game? How about we cut Troy some slack and give about 5 min from him to some of the others and as far as I'm concerned Jeff can give up about 5 a game as well.

  9. #9
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    I noted Maceo playing and immediately figured it was because we are nearing the trade deadline.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    But what I don't understand is that although we are mathematically not out of the playoffs, we might as well be.
    3 1/2 back with 39 games remaining. We might as well NOT be.


    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    With that said, I'm not suggesting here that we tank, but given that the season (or at least the playoffs) are over for us, why isn't he playing the rookies? I can understand giving Stephen Graham a few minutes; he might actually turn into a decent 3rd guard or bench player. But tonight O'Brien put Maceo Baston in...my question is this, why? Baston has peaked, he will never be anything more than he is now, and after this season he will either retire or return to Europe. Same with Diener, he will always be relegated to a 3rd string role in the NBA, and won't get any better. Why not let Hibbert take some lumps, or Rush, or even McRoberts? It just seems to me that Coach O'Brien should recognize that the future lies in the rookies and maybe McRoberts...and the other guys are never going to get better, will never get you to the next level, and likely won't even be here if/when this team reaches the next level.

    Can anyone explain the logic with what he is doing?
    While I've had some frustrations with the rotations, I don't at the moment. For the first time all year, it looks like our key players are healthy. Even Ford and Daniels look like they're turning the corner. The rookies, like every other player, should have to earn their minutes. In my opinion, they haven't.

    As far as play Baston goes, I don't know. I do know, however, that it's nice to reward a professional with some playing time. It's the second game in 35 that Baston has played, and by all accounts he the consummate professional. Why not reward him?

    Maybe there's another reason Baston played (trade showcase). I really don't know.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    As far as play Baston goes, I don't know. I do know, however, that it's nice to reward a professional with some playing time. It's the second game in 35 that Baston has played, and by all accounts he the consummate professional. Why not reward him?
    Rewarding for what? Because he's the consummate professional? There is the belief that the rookies need to earn their minutes, so what has Baston done to earn his other than JO'B thinks the same players shouldn't constantly be the ones not dressing?

    Kellogg was a valid point about playing the rookies. There are two thoughts about this, and his is just as valid as the opposite view. The same applies to the Pacers making the playoffs. The Pacers might be only be 3-4 games out of the playoffs but they are still in 14th place in the EC(next to dead last.). As Pesoke said the Pacers haven't been playing well enough to make the playoffs. Sure things can change same as things could change for me winning the lottery tonight. I'm way overdue. The reality is with the way the Pacers have played the 1st half of the season they won't. Some of the teams ahead of the Pacers are going to get on a some winning streaks too. The Pacers can't play .500 ball the rest of the season and slide into the playoffs. It will have to be better than that to get the job done. Can they truly win 60% or more of the remaining games? Remember, the Pacers won 36 games last year and failed to make the playoffs. The Pacers would have to win 20 games to just = last seasons record. It's possible, but not probable that the Pacers will match last seasons record let alone make the playoffs. If the make do, it will be b/c things have changed from how things have been done the 1st half of the season. Sometimes change can be a positive thing.

    No, Kellogg I can't explain O'Brien's logic behind a good many of his decisions, and there are others who can't either. My feeling is that he and Bird are truly feeling the heat of a losing season, and are now trying to salvage what they can of this season for their own personal reasons.

    No, Peck you aren'the only one who thinks in order to play a running game you need a longer rotation.

    It was nice to have won this game against Houston, but lets face it Yao went out injured early in the game and Artest and T-Mac didn't play. No use getting excited about this win. If those 3 players had been playing and the Pacers had won, that would be different. Let's see how they play against Charlotte and Orlando, 2 teams that have beaten them previously. JMOAA

  12. #12

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peskoe97 View Post
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    I think his point is that barring some unforseen change we havent been playing well enough to make the playoffs even though we are only 3.5 games back. I would probably agree with this.
    The key word is unforeseen: "Barring an unforeseen change, we haven't been playing well enough to make the playoffs."

    That is true. But it is foolish to suppose that changes will not occur because they were not foreseen. It flies in the face of human experience. Milan beat Muncie Central, and similar surprising events have happened times beyond counting.

    I am not talking about any blind optimism about the Pacers. It is as clear to me as to anyone that the Pacers aren't playing well enough to reach the playoffs. But circumstances change and events intervene. Not "may change" but "will change". Unforeseen things happen all the time.

    Notice this: even if you think, "barring unforeseen changes" you can't really bar them. They will happen. They often do.
    Last edited by Putnam; 01-24-2009 at 10:38 AM.
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  13. #13
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Two coments I want to make

    1) - Hibbert suffered a concussion in practice earlier this week, so he was not available to play.

    2) Put yourself in O'Brien's shoes. How can he look Granger in the eyes, if you do anything other than try to win every game.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Does Troy Murphy really need 38 min. a game? How about we cut Troy some slack and give about 5 min from him to some of the others and as far as I'm concerned Jeff can give up about 5 a game as well.
    Absolutely. If you're not going to give those minutes to McBob then give them to Maceo.
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    By no means are we out of the playoff hunt. We are 3.5 games out of the 8th seed. How does that make us out of it? Did we magically fast-forward to the middle of April? My calendars still say January.

    You kind of are suggesting that we should tank, because apparently the season is over according to you. (Please tell me why.)

    Baston was put in tonight as a set of fresh legs, and to assess his defensive presence. He needed to give Murph/Foster a rest, and Rasho needed some help.

    I would like to know where you get your information, either that or you must be some kind of fortune teller.
    First of all, please calm down... FYI, Lithium might help.

    Again, if you read my post, mathematically we certainly are not out of the playoffs, but there has been only one time we have made the playoffs after starting the first half of the season this badly. (I hate to mention that the push for the playoffs (Flip Murray signing) last year knocked us from maybe the 9th pick (i.e. D Rose) and we still didn't make the playoffs...but that's beside the point).

    The post was not a call to tank the season...this has been debated yearly on this and other message boards...and it boils down to a genuine difference of opinion among fans (brown shoes/black shoes, Hannity/Colmes, whatever).

    My point was simply that the season has not gone particularly well, that the team would have to gel (i.e. play D) in a way they have not all year (and with the same guys), have no injuries to key players the remainder of the season, have no off-court distractions and do what it has done only once in the history of the franchise (finish the second half of the season winning 60% of their games...in other words play like Boston/LA/SA). Certainly none of this is impossible, but just unlikely.

    Given "these" circumstances...my only point was what harm would it be to have O'Brien play guys more who fit into the long range plans and success of the Pacers than those who will (not likely) NOT be with the Pacers at the end of April. That's all...I'm not fortune telling or anything and didn't claim to have any inside information; nothing more than a casual look at the history of the Pacers since their inception.

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    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    No, your point was that we aren't in the running of the playoffs, but you were covering yourself by saying "mathematically" we are. Just because things haven't went our way most of this season, there is no telling where we'll be. That doesn't mean we tell our guys thanks for the effort and bench them.

    Last year's run for the playoffs was exciting. We had a string of great wins, even against playoff contenders. That didn't ruin anything for us in the draft. Winning games doesn't show that you have a disaster on your hands. Come to think of it, wow, we're winning games. That means we are one step closer to our goal. Man, I can't believe I just thought of that...

    Unfortunately, the wins aren't coming like we'd want to see them. That is where I understand where you are coming from, but now isn't the time to just close shop, and wait for next year. Especially when we still have plenty of time left to make the playoffs.

    Securing a low draft pick isn't always going to give you an instant positive result. That elusive top-10 pick isn't guaranteed to get us over that hump and us into the playoffs any faster than just being patient, and trying hard to win games with what we have. Especially with a trade deadline in less than a month on our hands. And we have the golden ticket for a few teams with expiring contracts!

    Also, who is saying that Danny, Mike, Troy, and the rest of the guys aren't part of the team's future, whether you like it or not? We need to win games.

    Look, I would've been more inclined to respond a little more positively to your statements if it were late March or early April, but your timing is off to make an accurate assumption of what our postseason is going to look like.

    BTW, I'm just fine.
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 01-24-2009 at 12:14 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg
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    Can anyone explain the logic with what he is doing?


    It's a fair question. Let's ask NFL head coach Herm Edwards

    [yt]IMk5sMHj58I[/yt]
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    It all dries up and blows away
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    But they never had much use for me
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    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    It's a fair question. Let's ask NFL head coach Herm Edwards

    [yt]IMk5sMHj58I[/yt]
    You know, what he said made sense. Sports are about competing to win.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    No, your point was that we aren't in the running of the playoffs, but you were covering yourself by saying "mathematically" we are. Just because things haven't went our way most of this season, there is no telling where we'll be. That doesn't mean we tell our guys thanks for the effort and bench them.

    Also, who is saying that Danny, Mike, Troy, and the rest of the guys aren't part of the team's future, whether you like it or not? We need to win games.

    Look, I would've been more inclined to respond a little more positively to your statements if it were late March or early April, but your timing is off to make an accurate assumption of what our postseason is going to look like.

    BTW, I'm just fine.
    The Depakote worked.

    I wasn't 'covering' myself. It's called qualifying my remarks by making certain reasonable assumptions based on their play this year and since say, 1967.

    And I never suggested 'Danny, Mike, Troy' were not part of the team's future; Danny is locked in for 6 more years after this one, Mike and Troy have albatross contracts that don't expire until 2010-2011 is over. But there are some guys who are highly likely not to return...Maceo, for one...possibly Diener (though I can't recall if his contract ends this year). You have two promising rookies who are likely to be around so why not play them?

    And it isn't just me, not that I enjoy Mike Wells all that much, but he has even floated the notion that it's going to be a tall order for the team to make the playoffs given the way they've played (and not played D) and history.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    You know, what he said made sense. Sports are about competing to win.
    And Coach Edwards is currently employed by whom?

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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    And Coach Edwards is currently employed by whom?
    Doesn't matter if he has a job or not. You have to win games.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Doesn't matter if he has a job or not. You have to win games.
    Agree...but sometimes the hard realities are to not get a 'bailout' (Flip Murray/playing Maceo), but just admit it's a lost cause, regroup/restructure.
    It gives us fans (or taxpayers) hope for something better down the road instead of just another year of draft (or automotive) mediocrity.

    But I understand your point and respect your opinion.

    I guess I look at this situation as the Pacers' glass is half-full...and I'm seeing this big leak in the bottom of the cup.

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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    Agree...but sometimes the hard realities are to not get a 'bailout' (Flip Murray/playing Maceo), but just admit it's a lost cause, regroup/restructure.
    It gives us fans (or taxpayers) hope for something better down the road instead of just another year of draft (or automotive) mediocrity.

    But I understand your point and respect your opinion.

    I guess I look at this situation as the Pacers' glass is half-full...and I'm seeing this big leak in the bottom of the cup.
    For the record I never wanted Murray and despised every minute he was on the floor.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    I think its WAY too early for the coach to "throw in the towel" and aim for developement instead of the primary focus of winning. Maybe in March, if the team is 10 games out or whatever, then there could be some justification to aim for getting alot more PT for the rooks/young guys.

    That's not to say I wouldn't like to see Hibbert Rush and Mcbob play a bit more, but the coach needs to have the win now mentality until the team is really out of the playoffs. They are FAR from out of it. There is along way to go still.

  25. #25
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach O'Brien, the team's future, his future...

    As long as Jim O the O stands for Offense 'Brien is coaching, his lack of emphasis on defense, and acceptance of our defense as it is, in the end is the same result as tanking.

    Our defense = losses.

    The only difference along the way is whether we use a losing year to get some experience for the newbs so the year is not a complete lost year.

    If he and/or management would address the defensive problem then maybe we could talk about playoffs. But if they don't then we might as well remember those famous words of Jim Mora-

    "Playoffs?! Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? Playoffs?! I'm just hoping we can win a game, another game!"
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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