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Thread: So... can we talk about TJ?

  1. #1
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default So... can we talk about TJ?

    I wasn't thrilled when we got TJ, and I thought the folks saying "top 5 PG" were nuts. But I expected him to be better than he's been, even without the injury issues. I thought ChicagoJ (who doesn't look at all like his avatar, by the way) was far too harsh in his early criticism of Ford, but so far his analysis has been right on the money.

    So what's up with TJ? I'm not sure we're much better with him on the court than with Jack, who I consider the ideal backup PG. I certainly don't like the two-PG backcourt that we keep running. Will he get better? Is this just a slump? Injury? Does it relate to who he's on the court with? He seemed to be playing far better next to Quis than Jack... coincidence?

    It would suck for him to lose a third starting job on 3 teams, but right now it's not out of the realm of possibility (and here I'm assuming that Jack's been getting the nod purely for health reasons).

    Thoughts on our "starting" PG?
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  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    He looked pretty good to start the season.

    "go go go" may be the problem.
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    He looked pretty good to start the season.

    "go go go" may be the problem.
    Lots of players look good to start the season and then crater. It's usually an indication that they're not as good as their earlier performance indicated.

    Regardless, plenty of his difficulties are hard to pin on the system.
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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    ChicagoJ (who doesn't look at all like his avatar, by the way)
    Isn't my avatar Dick LeBeau? I'm waiting a couple more weeks to change it.



    EDIT:

    PS, I'll stay out of this discussion. You all know my opinion already.
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    Member OakMoses's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    I think our offense is not well suited for TJ. He's not good without the ball and our offense is focused on him not overdribbling. He comes down and passes to a big in the high post and then he's pretty much useless because he doesn't cut well or have an excellent outside shot. When he's effective is when he breaks the offense and takes his man off the dribble, but this is exactly what O'Brien doesn't want him to do.

    I always assumed that TJ's play would improve when Dunleavy came back because our offense would spread the floor better. Since he's still battling injuries, we haven't seen if this is true or not.

    Another factor is that he seems to be better at passing to interior players after beating his man than at kicking out to open shooters. Since we have bigs who are not good at finishing around the rim, this is probably hurting his play a bit as well.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Please find me anyone who ever said that TJ is or ever was a top 5 point guard.


    TJ has been exactly what I thought he was when he is healthy - an above average starting NBA point guard. But he hasn't been healthy in a couple of months.

    I don't think O'Brien likes Ford's style of play though. Ford tends to want to dominate the ball and always make the scoring /assisting pass where as OB likes a point guard to move the ball and pass instead of trying to do everything off the dribble.

    I'm going to go searching for some early threads on TJ, because I don't think anypone ever suggeted he was a top 5.

  7. #7

    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Honestly, I'd rather not ..... I'm starting to agree with ChicagoJ, and that hurts my soul because I really don't want to on this. Yet every time he goes to the rim lately, I vomit a little bit in my mouth.

    Yes, it's that bad.

    -- Steve --

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    Member nerveghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    i've been wondering about TJ - He plays as many minutes as Jack on most occasions, so I'm wondering if O'Brien's decision to bring him off the bench was due to his play, and not his back problems.

    Either way, color me disappointed thus far. If he ever makes it to the starting lineup alongside Dun, maybe we'll learn more.

  9. #9
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    Honestly, I'd rather not ..... I'm starting to agree with ChicagoJ, and that hurts my soul because I really don't want to on this. Yet every time he goes to the rim lately, I vomit a little bit in my mouth.

    Yes, it's that bad.

    -- Steve --
    I'm pretty much there with you.

    TJ has been massively dissapointing to me, even before the injury. The only time he ever makes a differance IMO is when he is scoring the ball and frankly I just have never loved point guards who are scorers first.

    As to losing his starting job, I think that has already occured. Yes, he still has some injury issues but I think it's pretty clear that O'Brien is going to start Jack. In fact I wonder if Jack will have a 48 min. game this year?

  10. #10
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Most of you are way, way underestimating his injuries - the man can barely walk and you are saying he has "some injury issues".

    I couldn't find a thread devoted to him from eariler in the season - probably buried in the postgame threads.

    Peck, TJ has always been a scoring point guard - that is what he does - that is his game.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-22-2009 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    In fact I wonder if Jack will have a 48 min. game this year?

    If he does I guarantee it won't be in a winning effort.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Most of you are way, way underestimating his injuries - the man can barely walk and you are saying he has "some injury issues".

    I couldn't find a thread devoted to him from eariler in the season - probably buried in the postgame threads
    If he can 'barely walk' he certainly wouldn't be capable of running. Let alone blowing by defenders. I will never buy injuries as an excuse. Even with myself.

    After I got shot, I have/had a 10 inch scar down my stomach. My friends knew this and we were playing a game, and as someone drove to the rim he pushed off on my stomach with his forearm. It hurt, and I winced in pain. He apologized, but what was my reaction?

    I told him "if I can't go all out, or am too injured to play all out ... my *** shouldn't be out here, so don't apologize and play like you always would"

    Same for TJ

    -- Steve --

  13. #13
    Thank you, Danny. Kuq_e_Zi91's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    He can barely walk yet he's in for most of the 4th quarter during a blowout loss? I don't buy it. I think Jack is the starter and TJ was playing with the backups because that is what he is.

    His quickness is useless when he can't finish around the rim. Either he misses a layup, or he throws a wild pass out from under the rim and it goes straight to the other team for a fast break the other way. This is all we see from TJ. This and his little pull-up mid range jumper which hasn't been going in that often lately.

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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    From what I can tell whenever Ford is on the court...I agree that he has the tendency to over-dribble the ball. IMHO, he has Flip Murray syndrome....where he tends to tries to do fancy cross-overs and show off some dazzling dribbling skills, but this tendency often leads to him losing the ball....dribbling it off his foot or dribbling into some dark corner of the paint where he's surrounded by the opposing Frontcourt.

    He's the type of player that is an on-and-off type player. Depending on the team we play, he could dominate the other team simply cuz they have no answer for a super quick but small scoring PG.....but more often then not....I see that super quick but Small scoring PG has poor shot selection and often puts himself in a position where he will somehow turn the ball over.

    But to be fair.....he isn't playing at 100%....which I think is still affecting his game.....so I will hold complete judgement on him until he's healthy ( if that ever happens ).

    As to whether I think that he will be a long-term solution at the PG spot, I don't think that we have any choice.....it's going to be hard to move his contract.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-22-2009 at 02:33 PM.
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  15. #15
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Please find me anyone who ever said that TJ is or ever was a top 5 point guard.

    I'm going to go searching for some early threads on TJ, because I don't think anyone ever suggested he was a top 5.


    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=40494

    Quote Originally Posted by Merz View Post
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    Those [i.e., "Jay's" -ed] statements just reek of ignorance. Ford can run a team. He is arguably one the top five pgs in the league when it comes to being a pure point guard. Besides his size he is nothing like Travis Best. Ford will push it and try to make something happen not just pound the ball for 15-20 seconds. If you're going to make comments about a guy atleast know a little something about him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Landry View Post
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    If Ford stays healthy, he's a top 10 point guard. Merz is right, he's a top 5 pure point guard and he can also give you 14-18 points a night, depending on minutes played.
    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Good post I totally agree
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    This is the most excited I've been about a PG since Jax. He's potentially a top 5 PG, and if healthy, I expect nothing less. And I expect him to improve his shooting under JOB.
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I really wonder if any of these guys have seen TJ play before. His main weakness is his health. Nobody around the leaque denies he has the ability to be a top 10 or top 5 PG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    yep, pretty close.

    Hollinger Stats: Player Efficiency Rating - Point Guard

    1 Chris Paul, NOR
    2 Chauncey Billups, DET
    3 Steve Nash, PHO
    4 Deron Williams, UTH
    5 Jose Calderon, TOR
    6 T.J. Ford, IND
    7 Tony Parker, SAS
    8 Baron Davis, LAC
    9 Andre Miller, PHI
    10 Jason Terry, DAL

    ...oh snap.
    Oh snap is right. My bball knowledge is second to lots of people, but I know what I read.
    Last edited by Anthem; 01-22-2009 at 02:46 PM.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Should have thrown in a bit more, and asked for Calderon, i think TJ is a better fit for us and Calde for you. But then again, if we traded Calde, we would want more then JO so nevermind :P

    Let me say this, the year the raptors won 47, TJ was excellent, when he is healthy and playing well, he is almost unguardable and creates open shots for others, he has a bad tendency to be out of control, he can win you games or take 5 shots in a row and lose you them, you need some decent vet leadership to keep him in line and i dont think your coach does a decent job or his teammates, he needs to have his leash tugged sometimes but believe me, his ceiling is WAY higher then Jacks

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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I wonder if Jack will have a 48 min. game this year?
    No, O'Brien doesn't have a problem playing Diener or Ford so I am absolutely sure this would never happen.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=40494













    Oh snap is right. My bball knowledge is second to lots of people, but I know what I read.


    Good find and interesting read now. Actually only 1 person said top 5 point guard - several said top 10. Luckily I didn't say anything like that. I think when Ford is healthy he is probably somewhere around the 11th or 12th best point guard in the NBA. But he's only been healthy for about 6 or 7 games this season.

    My comments in that thread seemed to suggest that I knew we were losing talent in the trade and yet the trade had to be made.

    Edit- did anyone else hear Brunner on 950 yesterday saying that JO told JOB before last season that he wanted to be traded. - that was news to me

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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    No, O'Brien doesn't have a problem playing Diener or Ford so I am absolutely sure this would never happen.
    JO'B will find a way.......Jack can play backup SG minutes to fill up that 48 minutes even if Ford and Diener are playing.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Edit- did anyone else hear Brunner on 950 yesterday saying that JO told JOB before last season that he wanted to be traded. - that was news to me
    I didn't hear that on the radio but I know for a fact JO wanted out before JOB was even named coach.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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  21. #21

    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    As to whether I think that he will be a long-term solution at the PG spot, I don't think that we have any choice.....it's going to be hard to move his contract.

    You hit the nail on the head.

    I felt after the trades the Pacers had cured their PG ills, but I've come to the decision that's just not so.

    What I want to know is if players aren't fitting O'Brien system then why did Bird trade for them. Why bring in players that don't fit his system? It reminds me of trading Cro's expiring, trading AJ, signing Sarunus and Baston, and drafting Williams and White. Just how did any of that help Carlisle? All these decisions lead to exactly what? Oh yeah, we still have a injury ridden Daniels to show for it.

    Something is amiss here. And it all comes back to who is making the decisions on player personnel. Somebody isn't doing their job. Either they truly don't recognize the type of talent needed, they can't recognize a player with the talent they need, or they just don't know what talent is. JMOAA

  22. #22
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    TJ Ford is decent. He is not the reason we are losing games. He won us games against the Thunder & Detroit this year.

  23. #23
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    TJ Ford is decent. He is not the reason we are losing games. He won us games against the Thunder & Detroit this year.
    The fact that somebody has to win us a game at home against the Thunder is pretty telling about this team.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    in fairness,

    Because Anthem started this thread, we're about to see a 5-game stretch where TJ plays much bigger than he is, can actually find the passing lanes and deliver the ball, and finishes well around the rim. Then we'll all look silly.

    (and then he'll return to normal: exceptional only with his quickness, average passer and defender, below average court vision and shot, and lousy around the rim. Capable of making occasional plays that make one think he should be better than he is. It generally takes Hall-of-Fame, or all-pro skills, for a player under 6'1" to really make a difference.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Default Re: So... can we talk about TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    The fact that somebody has to win us a game at home against the Thunder is pretty telling about this team.
    We could of lost that one. Keep in mind that was before they picked up Kristic.

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