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Thread: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

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    Default New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    In it Byron Scott said he thought he had the Pacers coaching job. That it was his understanding that Donnie Walsh wanted him and Mel/Herb wanted Isiah Thomas. I guess we know who won that argument. First time I had heard this. You can listen at Pacers dot com.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-20-2009 at 03:04 PM.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by aceace View Post
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    In it Byron Scott said he thought he had the Pacers coaching job. That it was his understanding that Donnie Walsh wanted him and Mel/Herb wanted Isiah Thomas. I guess we know who won that argument. First time I had heard this. You can listen at Pacers dot com.
    That is very interesting - haven't listened to the podcast yet. It was reported that DW had his man earlier in the year (Isiah) of course it is possible that Donnie never really wanted him and was only getting isiah on the request of the Simons. I doubt that though.

    If you don't mind I am going to add something to the thread title, because I think this is an interesting topic.

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/multimedia/podcast.html

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Wow, that is interesting indeed. If it is true, it's clear to me that

    a) Byron Scott would have been an epic hire, and

    b) Owners should really let their team managers make the decisions on personnel. Isn't that what they're there for?

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by D23 View Post
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    Wow, that is interesting indeed. If it is true, it's clear to me that

    a) Byron Scott would have been an epic hire, and

    b) Owners should really let their team managers make the decisions on personnel. Isn't that what they're there for?
    It was widely reported that the Simons went hard for Pitino in the summer of 1993 (for coach and GM) and if they could have gotten him Walsh would have been out right then. Pitino fell through and Walsh had to really convince the Simons to take Larry Brown.

    My source on this was Brunner's book that he wrote after the 1994 season

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    As much as I wanted Byron at the time, in retrospect, coming here probably would have ruined his career.
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    It was widely reported that the Simons went hard for Pitino in the summer of 1993 (for coach and GM) and if they could have gotten him Walsh would have been out right then. Pitino fell through and Walsh had to really convince the Simons to take Larry Brown.

    My source on this was Brunner's book that he wrote after the 1994 season

    This creates a totally different view I had of the Simons. I "assumed" they really didn't get involved in the running of the team. They would have dumped Walsh for Pitino is a complete surprise.

    Anyone have any info revelations on the Simons and Bird?

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    Figures, two out of three chance to get it right and we ended up with Isiah. Good God.

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    Yeah but... What are the odds Walsh lied to Scott?
    "I'd really love to hire you but... ummmm.... you see.... but... uhhhh.... the Simons... Yeah, the Simons... They want Isiah... Yeah, they want Isiah! Yeah, that's the ticket! Sorry Byron. If it was my call... you'd be the man"

    Who knows? Over the years there have been little leaks that seemed to signal the Simons weren't as hands off as we'd been led to believe all these years.

    But then when they needed to be more hands on, they waited.

    And when it was clear Isiah needed fired... Walsh didn't do it. Even when it was more than clear Isiah needed fired Walsh didn't do it- "I'm not going to fire Isiah"

    In any case, whoever was to blame, they ended up hiring the worst coach in Pacers history. I would take Versace over Isiah. Irvine? Sure. How you follow a finals appearance with Isiah is a question that should haunt Pacer fans forever.
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    It was widely reported that the Simons went hard for Pitino in the summer of 1993 (for coach and GM) and if they could have gotten him Walsh would have been out right then. Pitino fell through and Walsh had to really convince the Simons to take Larry Brown.

    My source on this was Brunner's book that he wrote after the 1994 season
    Pitino and Zeke? That doesn't give me much optimism in the Simons' personnel evaluation abilities.

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    This creates a totally different view I had of the Simons. I "assumed" they really didn't get involved in the running of the team. They would have dumped Walsh for Pitino is a complete surprise.

    Anyone have any info revelations on the Simons and Bird?

    Well lookwho "replaced" Donnie and now has a firm hand in the franchise. I'd say they came out of the closet.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Well lookwho "replaced" Donnie and now has a firm hand in the franchise. I'd say they came out of the closet.

    But do you KNOW this to be a fact?

    My impression has always been Walsh couldn't/wouldn't fire Isiah for whatever reason. He needed someone that would and Bird and Isiah had history, so he hired Bird to do the dirty work he wouldn't or couldn't do. This was Larry Legend an Indiana icon.

    Let's face it Bird had no managerial background. Red wouldn't give him a job in the Celtics organization. My impression was Red thought Bird was a great player, but didn't have what it took to be in management. So why would Walsh hire Bird other than Larry Legend PR for the Pacers? To get rid of Isiah for him. I always felt Walsh didn't like having to admit his mistake of hiring Isiah, so maybe indeed there is validity about the Simons wanting Isiah. If this is true, Walsh was pretty shrewd having Bird fire Isiah, b/c Walsh after taking over the Knicks replaced Isiah as coach.


    I never believed Walsh had ever thought of Bird truly as his replacement. For the better part of 2 years, Walsh had Bird scouting over in Europe. For someone that was to be his replacement, why have him do that? To me it was to get him out of his way. Why else? What other NBA team sends their heir apparent to scout Europe for 2 years? That's what they have scouts for. Who is doing it now for the Pacers? It isn't an heir apparent.

    I made a comment recently in a post that the reason Walsh started grooming Bird as his successor was to make himself look better after he retired/left. My impression of Bird is he can't balance his checkbook let alone has the managerial abilities to run a sports franchise. Does anyone really think another NBA franchise would hire Bird as their GM? There is a reason the Simons have David Morway in the position he occupies. My firm belief is Bird is just here to change the image of the Pacers and get them back on solid footing. After that, he's history. Who really believes that Bird has what it takes to get the Pacers a championship?

    Who was it a few years ago on this board that claimed to know that Bird had it in place to buy the Pacers when the Simons decided to sell the Pacers? To me that is Bird's down deep goal/dream, to be an owner of a NBA team. JMOAA

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    Lifer 2minutes twowa's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    I think the Simons are still more hands-off than a lot of owners, but when their bottom line started suffering it seems like they paniced a little. I totally agree with the previous comment that you have to let your VP or GM do their job. The Colts are the perfect example of that. You let the coach coach, you let the GM handle player movement and aquisition, and the owner handles the financials. Of course there are instances where each will add their thoughts and opinions, but the final say should go to the guy who is in charge of that aspect of the franchise. That's an easy formula to follow when you're winning. But when you start losing and the revenue starts to dry up, there's bound to be a little panic and uncertainty.
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    But do you KNOW this to be a fact?

    My impression has always been Walsh couldn't/wouldn't fire Isiah for whatever reason. He needed someone that would and Bird and Isiah had history, so he hired Bird to do the dirty work he wouldn't or couldn't do. This was Larry Legend an Indiana icon.

    Let's face it Bird had no managerial background. Red wouldn't give him a job in the Celtics organization. My impression was Red thought Bird was a great player, but didn't have what it took to be in management. So why would Walsh hire Bird other than Larry Legend PR for the Pacers? To get rid of Isiah for him. I always felt Walsh didn't like having to admit his mistake of hiring Isiah, so maybe indeed there is validity about the Simons wanting Isiah. If this is true, Walsh was pretty shrewd having Bird fire Isiah, b/c Walsh after taking over the Knicks replaced Isiah as coach.


    I never believed Walsh had ever thought of Bird truly as his replacement. For the better part of 2 years, Walsh had Bird scouting over in Europe. For someone that was to be his replacement, why have him do that? To me it was to get him out of his way. Why else? What other NBA team sends their heir apparent to scout Europe for 2 years? That's what they have scouts for. Who is doing it now for the Pacers? It isn't an heir apparent.

    I made a comment recently in a post that the reason Walsh started grooming Bird as his successor was to make himself look better after he retired/left. My impression of Bird is he can't balance his checkbook let alone has the managerial abilities to run a sports franchise. Does anyone really think another NBA franchise would hire Bird as their GM? There is a reason the Simons have David Morway in the position he occupies. My firm belief is Bird is just here to change the image of the Pacers and get them back on solid footing. After that, he's history. Who really believes that Bird has what it takes to get the Pacers a championship?

    Who was it a few years ago on this board that claimed to know that Bird had it in place to buy the Pacers when the Simons decided to sell the Pacers? To me that is Bird's down deep goal/dream, to be an owner of a NBA team. JMOAA
    Don't scheet yourself, Bird is not as stupid as you have portrayed him in your post. Bird is a proven winner, something that should not be so easily discounted.

  14. #14

    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    Bird worked with Donnie and was his head coach for 3 years. Then received on the job training from Donnie for another 4 years. Played for some great coaches at Boston all the while Red was running the franchise. I will take that over a college degree any day. The only way you learn to coach/GM is by playing/being around the best. Bird is qualified IMHO.
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Who was it a few years ago on this board that claimed to know that Bird had it in place to buy the Pacers when the Simons decided to sell the Pacers? To me that is Bird's down deep goal/dream, to be an owner of a NBA team. JMOAA
    Honestly, when you connect the dots... This is not a far off probability.
    • David Simon is pretty much on record as saying, he isn't interested in taking on the Pacers from his father.
    • The Simon's are getting pretty long in the tooth. Combine that with David Simon...
    • I'm sure that the Simon's would want local ownership. With Microsoft and the City of Seattle agreeing to terms from the NBA. Seattle will have a place to play and would be seeking a team after a new facility is built with the OKC settlement money.
    • Larry Bird put an ownership group together in the past. He finished second to a local interest with a larger wallet in Bob Johnson down in Charlotte. Also, the NBA wasn't going to turn down the chance to allow sports first minority owner.
    • Bird's big money partner is available, once again. Steve Belkin is out in Atlanta from that ownership fiasco a few years ago.
    • Say what you will about Bird, he is as close to being local ownership as it gets.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Honestly, when you connect the dots... This is not a far off probability.
    • David Simon is pretty much on record as saying, he isn't interested in taking on the Pacers from his father.
    • The Simon's are getting pretty long in the tooth. Combine that with David Simon...
    • I'm sure that the Simon's would want local ownership. With Microsoft and the City of Seattle agreeing to terms from the NBA. Seattle will have a place to play and would be seeking a team after a new facility is built with the OKC settlement money.
    • Larry Bird put an ownership group together in the past. He finished second to a local interest with a larger wallet in Bob Johnson down in Charlotte. Also, the NBA wasn't going to turn down the chance to allow sports first minority owner.
    • Bird's big money partner is available, once again. Steve Belkin is out in Atlanta from that ownership fiasco a few years ago.
    • Say what you will about Bird, he is as close to being local ownership as it gets.
    This is from the press conference announcing Bird's hiring in 2003:

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bird_...pt_030711.html

    (The screen's black, but if you click and drag the mouse, you can see the text.)

    (Larry Bird...On his ownership aspirations) "I asked the Simons five, six years ago if they wanted to sell and they wouldn’t do it. I doubt it’s in the foreseeable future."
    I would assume that if Bird has the financial wherewithal, he would be a serious candidate for replacing the Simons, but that's a big if.

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I never believed Walsh had ever thought of Bird truly as his replacement. For the better part of 2 years, Walsh had Bird scouting over in Europe. For someone that was to be his replacement, why have him do that? To me it was to get him out of his way. Why else? What other NBA team sends their heir apparent to scout Europe for 2 years? That's what they have scouts for. Who is doing it now for the Pacers? It isn't an heir apparent.
    What? He was in Europe for "the better part of 2 years?" No way you can even think that statement is anywhere near the truth.

    I don't make many games, but every game I made while Bird was an understudy, Bird was in attendance. Either a pretty long shot coincidence, or pretty telling that he didn't spend as much time overseas as you thought he did.

    Bird has always been in on press conferences, at games, and just visible in the community since his hiring. Either he can rack up the frequent flier miles, or your perception on the situation isn't anywhere near accurate.

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    What? He was in Europe for "the better part of 2 years?" No way you can even think that statement is anywhere near the truth.

    I don't make many games, but every game I made while Bird was an understudy, Bird was in attendance. Either a pretty long shot coincidence, or pretty telling that he didn't spend as much time overseas as you thought he did.

    Bird has always been in on press conferences, at games, and just visible in the community since his hiring. Either he can rack up the frequent flier miles, or your perception on the situation isn't anywhere near accurate.
    Bird was constantly overseas scouting teams. Their seasons are at the same time the NBA season is. Granted it isn't as long. Why else do you think Runi and Baston was signed and Lorbek and Stanko was drafted? Just coincidence?

    Comments were constantly made on another board that shall remain nameless about the amount of time he spend scouting only to come up with the forementioned players. It was a standing joke.

    Your comment about frequent flyer miles was brought up more than once on that board as a joke as well. Comments were made numerous times about what was he constantly doing over there when he should be here attending to the business of learning the "trade." Your recollection of Bird always being here attending to learning the business I believe is a bit fuzzy.

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    Since you won't take my word for it, how about Donnie Walsh's?

    It's great to have Larry Bird as a Pacer again," said Pacers Sports & Entertainment President Donnie Walsh. "While I will remain the chief executive officer, Larry will begin to assume the day-to-day basketball responsibilities. As Pacers Sports & Entertainment has grown, I've seen my responsibilities grow and I needed somebody to assume the responsibility of basketball operations. There is no one more perfect for the Pacers than Larry.

    "While Larry was coach, I was very impressed with not only his knowledge of the game, but of the NBA and what it took to win a championship. I think this will be a huge benefit to our owners, our franchise, our coaches, our players and our fans."
    http://www.insidehoops.com/larry-bir...s-071103.shtml

    There are a ton of GM's across the league that didn't have managerial backgrounds before running their respected teams. That's why they hire people like David Morway, that can break down the financial side of things.

    Look at Donnie's background. He didn't have a great managerial background before he became a GM. He had been either an assistant coach in college or the pros, and one head coaching stop with the Nugs for a year, before he was named the Pacers GM.

    But yes, let's stick with the perception that Larry was only hired as an "Adult Boomer," which was some of the poster's perception around here for quite a while.

    EDIT: I'll further the agrument as well.

    Before Donnie's departure we had many lengthy debates about how big a problem the "two-headed monster of DW and LB were." No one pictured LB as the lap dog just running around doing the errands DW sent him on. LB was the face at the press conferences. LB was the one making the announcements. It's a very easy argument to make the DW was grooming LB to take over once he left. I doubt you'll find many disagreeing with that sentiment besides you. If you want to believe that DW brought Larry in to do his dirty work in firing Isiah and be a glorified scout, then that's your prerogative, but it's not supported by the past nor the present.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-21-2009 at 04:39 PM.

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Red wouldn't give him a job in the Celtics organization. My impression was Red thought Bird was a great player, but didn't have what it took to be in management.

    In Bird's own words, that is not true:

    Red Auerbach, the crusty old Celtic, said he ''can't understand'' why Bird took the [Pacers] coaching job, adding: ''It's a 15-hour day and travel and responsibility and aggravation and emotional ups and downs. Holy God Almighty, what would he want that for?''

    Bird raised his eyebrows at this. ''I don't know why Red says that,'' he said. ''He tried to hire me to coach the Celtics.''

    Bird turned it down. ''I had made a name for myself there as a player,'' he said, ''and I thought if you don't win -- and there was a very young team there -- that I would tarnish everything I had built up there.''


    Ira Berkow, New York Times:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Since you won't take my word for it, how about Donnie Walsh's?


    http://www.insidehoops.com/larry-bir...s-071103.shtml

    There are a ton of GM's across the league that didn't have managerial backgrounds before running their respected teams. That's why they hire people like David Morway, that can break down the financial side of things.

    Look at Donnie's background. He didn't have a great managerial background before he became a GM. He had been either an assistant coach in college or the pros, and one head coaching stop with the Nugs for a year, before he was named the Pacers GM.

    But yes, let's stick with the perception that Larry was only hired as an "Adult Boomer," which was some of the poster's perception around here for quite a while.

    What would you truly think Walsh would say if he hired Bird as I feel he did?

    You believe how you wish, and I'll do the same.

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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    Wasn't Bird in Europe

    (a) when the Brawl occurred (thus, Donnie and the Simons did all the initial press conferences)

    and

    (b) when Ron-Ron demanded a trade (thus, Donnie waited for Bird to get back to really get that process started.)

    ???

    I think those are right, but I'm typing that from the top of my head and can be proven wrong here...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
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    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Wasn't Bird in Europe

    (a) when the Brawl occurred (thus, Donnie and the Simons did all the initial press conferences)

    and

    (b) when Ron-Ron demanded a trade (thus, Donnie waited for Bird to get back to really get that process started.)

    ???

    I think those are right, but I'm typing that from the top of my head and can be proven wrong here...


    I definately remember Bird being in Europe on the trade demand, and the 1st part about Walsh and the Simons sound correct. Thanx for your memory, b/c those situations were a year apart thus showing Bird was doing the Euro scouting trips while being an understudy.

  24. #24

    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    In Bird's own words, that is not true:

    Red Auerbach, the crusty old Celtic, said he ''can't understand'' why Bird took the [Pacers] coaching job, adding: ''It's a 15-hour day and travel and responsibility and aggravation and emotional ups and downs. Holy God Almighty, what would he want that for?''

    Bird raised his eyebrows at this. ''I don't know why Red says that,'' he said. ''He tried to hire me to coach the Celtics.''

    Bird turned it down. ''I had made a name for myself there as a player,'' he said, ''and I thought if you don't win -- and there was a very young team there -- that I would tarnish everything I had built up there.''


    Ira Berkow, New York Times:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

    My understanding was Bird wanted in the Celtics management/office, but couldn't get hired.

    Thanx for the info on the coaching job being offered to Bird. I had never heard that b4. I'll stash it away in the archives of my memory.

  25. #25

    Default Re: New Pacer podcast Boyle/B.Scott. Scott was really Walsh's choice?

    I remembered it only because on the forum at the time (well, the Indy Star forum) there was a lot of anxiety about whether Bird would be a decent coach, and people were insisting that if he had any coaching potential at all then he would have already gotten that job in Boston.

    The Ira Berkow article I linked is also a good read for the stuff about Bird's conditioning as a player. He's credited with "court smarts" but he worked very hard to have super-stamina and strength, given that he wasn't especially quick or a jumper.

    I think Bird has talked about no working for the Celtics at other times too (in a book?), that coaches are hired to be fired someday (unless they quit first), and that if he were fired in Boston it would destroy or highly tarnish the bond he had with the city as a player. He thought that Boston's talent level at the time (specifically after Reggie Lewis' death) would make winning enough to please the fans almost unimaginable.

    Well he probably said something more like "Dem Celtics teams then had got no good players, and ain't no way I wanted to go there. Hain't no way I was agonna go and get fired just cause I cain't get Antoine Walker to get in shape 'n stop jackin' up crazy shots."
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-21-2009 at 06:54 PM.

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