View Poll Results: Playoffs or Youngsters?

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  • Make a run for the Playoffs

    27 45.00%
  • More minutes for Rush, Hibbert, and McRoberts

    33 55.00%
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Thread: Most of you aren't going to like this

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Most of you aren't going to like this

    I think it is time to stop playing around and put our best lineup on the court. Rush, Graham, Roy, Josh - it is time you all sit down and watch, we need to win some game. (see I told you most of you won't like this)

    Time to put Jeff into the starting lineup (O'Brien said before the game tonight that Jeff needs to play more) along with Ford (once he gets healthy - which he isn't right now) Dunleavy, Granger and Murphy. Use Jack, Daniels (when he gets healthy) and Rasho as the primary bench players with Diener as a spot player. That team will start to win and with the schedule as easy as it is after next week - I think we can still make the playoffs - but more importantly, we can play good basketball.

    Really, I suspect O'Brien is thinking the same thing I am and if we can get the top 8 healthy, we'll see what I am suggesting

  2. #2
    Member pianoman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    i completely agree
    Passion, Pride, Playoffs, Pacers

  3. #3
    Fat, Drunk and Stupid Lord Helmet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I'm fine with whatever can get us playing decent basketball, and most importantly winning more games and hopefully a playoff spot.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I can't agree with you more Unclebuck.

  5. #5
    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I agree but here as of late Hibbert has been playing some good ball. I would honestly rather have him on the court then rasho being the backup to to foster and when murph needs a break move foster to pf.

  6. #6
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I've been wondering if I'd play Foster at all, not give him more minutes.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  7. #7
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Use Jack, Daniels
    Probably the best remedy for Pacer fans this year.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  8. #8
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I had to read that again. At first I thought you wanted the young guys to start.

    LOL

    Otherwise, I agree with you, Buck.

  9. #9
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    I had to read that again. At first I thought you wanted the young guys to start.

    LOL

    Otherwise, I agree with you, Buck.
    Yeah, I like to make people read carefully.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-14-2009 at 11:12 PM.

  10. #10
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yeah, I like to make people to read carefully.
    I sat down with a glass of milk, and had to read that...

    I called into the call-in show, and talked to Kevin Lee about these guys are our starters. Kevin concurred.

  11. #11
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Well, Josh has been sitting...and Rush has been sitting of late...so no real changes there. I don't think JOb needs any pushing to sit those guys.

    Now, sitting Graham and Roy is probably a good move if you want to make the playoffs. I don't think swapping Rasho and Foster around accomplishes much...but it doesn't hurt either.

    A healthy Quis would help, but the addition of Dunleavy is the factor. If he plays well, we do have a shot of squeezing in. He needs to get back in form within a few weeks or it is over regardless of who else we put on the floor.

  12. #12
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    I sat down with a glass of milk, and had to read that...

    I called into the call-in show, and talked to Kevin Lee about these guys are our starters. Kevin concurred.
    I thought that might have been you

  13. #13
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I've been wondering if I'd play Foster at all, not give him more minutes.
    I agree with this. I would love to see Mcbob take Fosters minutes. Foster just looks ineffective out there.

    Not developing our youth is folly. A first round playoff exit where our young guys don't see the floor isn't helping in the longterm. I would like to see less Graham, but inexperienced or not, Rush, Hibbert, and Mcroberts bring some skills and talents to this team that the vets are severly lacking. Getting these guys time is essential to improving the team in the long run. How about Defense? Post Scoring? Athleticism? Aren't those three things this team lacks????? Aren't those the things holding us back? I say more Rush, Hibby, and Mcbob.
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  14. #14
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I'm torn on this as I think that you are correct that if the Pacers want to win more games now the lineup you are advocating is probably at least the most effective. I would probably still put Rasho in over Foster but that's just me.

    However I also think this is very very short sighted and may in fact have long term damage.

    Obviously making the playoffs for Danny, Mike and Troy would be beneficial. But at the same time that team, as is, at best is just going to make the playoffs.

    If we ever want to advance in the playoffs, obviously not this year, Roy and Brandon had better not have to have a rookie year next year.

    But let's not kid ourselves either. One game does not a season make. This was a Piston team that was not the Pistons. I have not seen them play this lackluster or bad since before Dumars took over the club.

    If the lineup you suggest does not win at a high volume I would suggest that it would be a failure of monumental proportions to not play the rookies at least minimal min.

    In fact if Roy is now back to being DNP-CD'd until we are either being blown out or we are blowing someone out then someone needs to lose thier job. If it's O'Brien or Hibbert I don't know. But with what he has shown on the floor there is zero reason for him to not play and develop.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I'm sorry but Roy is already our best Center. He needs to start and play as much as possible.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    I called into the call-in show, and talked to Kevin Lee about these guys are our starters. Kevin concurred.
    You did a good job Tony, ha. I liked how you mentioned "our forum" . . . I agree with the staring lineup like Kevin did, but not so sure about Graham just yet in Buck's lineup.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Good Job, Duke.... My wife recognized your voice...then it was a dead giveaway when you mentioned, "our forum".
    ***

    As for the topic at hand, I STILL don't think we are that good of a ball club to keep our young players off the court. IMHO, just sitting the young guys is only going to make us a 38 win team. To me, that isn't good enough to totally shut down our young players.

    If that is the direction that we are going.... stepping away from development and making a run. Jim O'Brien isn't the right coach for this team!!! I have no problem with O'Brien as the teacher in practice and getting our guys prepared to play, but really.... If we are to become so serious that we're not rebuilding... Jim O'Brien is wasting our time as coach.

    The reason this isn't a "Fire Jim O'Brien" rant is because I feel he is doing a solid job as a training coach for our rebuilding effort.
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  18. #18
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    No problem. Always willing to represent. I try to call as much as I can, especially during the *long* drive home after games. Tonight I had the pleasure of not having to pay attention to the roads and call from my house!

    I do feel that these guys are our starting lineup. It is hard to tell if this will stunt the development of our rookies, I think it could.

    I've got a good feeling about what UncleBuck is trying to say will benefit us most. He isn't known for being totally nuts.

    But man did this win feel good tonight. I like it. I want more.
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 01-15-2009 at 12:17 AM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    It is cool, but I'm not big on Jack or Travis.
    I just don't think Jack is much of a point & isn't good enough offensive wise to be a 2 guard.
    I have come to like him more than I did 10 games ago for his all out hustle.
    I use to hate Foster when he was young, because of his bad skills, but his heart & hustle won me over. Jack can be a good scrap player like Foster became by giving us defense & a spark trough hustle.

    Travis just hurts us on the defensive like Buckner pointed out. He isn't good enough on the other end to make it worth him playing imo. This leaves me to using Jack more as our backup point, because of the 2 he can play D & get hot every now & again.

    I kind of like what I see out of Grahm & he doesn't make more mistakes than Jack. They would both play & also Rush looks good to me. Not as good as Dun or Danny obviously.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    When Marquis returns and Ford gets more healthy....I fully expect that the primary rotation of players would consist of an 8-man rotation with Jack/Marquis/Granger/Murphy/Rasho/Dunleavy/Ford/Foster where each of them would get the bulk of the minutes throughout the game.

    However, I would hope that players like Diener ( at the PG rotation ) and McRoberts / Hibbert ( at the Big Man PF/C rotation ) would get a very consistent 10-15 mpg. I'm not advocating this because I'm on some "Get Hibbert / McRoberts / Diener some underdeserved minutes" bandwagon......it's because players like Foster, Rasho ( most notably ) and Murphy ( to a lesser degree ) are not conditioned to play at this pace that we force upon the other team. Getting Hibbert or McRoberts ( depending on Matchups ) a consistent 10-15 minutes a game could mean the difference between Foster and/or Rasho providing a "far more effective" performance at 24+ mpg as opposed to an "average" performance 28-30 mpg a game.

    As for Diener....the only reason why I would include him in the PG rotation is not only to give Ford and Jack some rest....but to provide some energy and change of pace when Ford and/or Jack become erratic on the PG spot with Turnovers...which ( unfortunately ) happens more often then not in the 2nd half ( when we need to be more careful with the ball ). If anything ( with Jack's tendency to cough up the ball at the most worst times ), I would hope that Diener would be brought in during stretches of the game when we need to do our best to protect the ball and slow down the scoring in the game in order to protect a lead.

    To me, I think that one of the key factors in how well we do for the rest of the season is fatigue and how we deal with it. This doesn't mean that I expect them to come in and score a whole bunch of points or even fully implement JO'Bs offense/defenses........but their primary purpose is to provide some energy off the bench and not doing anything stupid while "towing the line" and "keeping us afloat" when our key finishers are getting some rest.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-15-2009 at 12:55 AM.
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  21. #21
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    This is so short sighted it isn't funny. In your best case scenario, we get swept in the first round. And our potential future loses a whole year. Plus, our draft pick gets worse. Yes, let's play for that that.
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I'd go with this lineup. If we want to win games we need to play or vets. Players need to earn their minutes, and I've never agreed with forcing minutes on a player just to see him develop.

  23. #23
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I disagree, Buck. The team needs to look heavily at maximizing trade value of its few assets, especially Quis and Rasho. If you can use one of them to move Murphy or Tinsley then you do it.
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    I think we should look more towards the future. As most of you guys are saying, this team does not have a very good chance of going far in the playoffs even if they make it. I think we look at next season and how good we will be. Develop Rush, Hibbert, and McRoberts, get a nice player in the draft, and then make some serious noise in the playoffs next season. We still might possibly slip into the playoffs this season while giving our younger players some significant play time.

  25. #25
    '12 PD Sunshiner awardee Kemo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of you aren't going to like this

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    A healthy Quis would help, but the addition of Dunleavy is the factor. If he plays well, we do have a shot of squeezing in. He needs to get back in form within a few weeks or it is over regardless of who else we put on the floor.


    It would be nice if JOB recognized, and knew when to pull a cold player, and put in fresh legs.. or to keep a hot hand on the floor ..
    NOT to let the same players try and play out of their slump.. even if it means we lose.. because of stubborness in coaching phillosophy..

    What SHOULD be done.. is ..
    For instance, he starts Dun , subs Quis in for him if he notices Mike ain't doing anything or is having a hard time (see GS game).. Same for Quis, when he notices quis pullin some bonehead moves, pull him.. This is just an example..

    The problem really , and truthfully lies with JOB NOT knowing who to play, and most importantly WHEN..

    If Foster is playing like a bonehead , missing open layups and whining about fouls , pull him , put McRoberts in for a good 3 minutes, see if McRoberts has a hot hand with his shot , with assists, rebounds, shot altering and etc... If he is playing excellent, either keep him in the game, or make sure and put him back in later in the game at some point... Don't bury him back on the bench for eternity...untill another injury and he is needed again...

    JOB needs to MAKE THAT ASSESMENT on the fly ,pay attention , and reward good play to these guys like McBob , Hibbert , and even Baston honestly.. Most importantly this "playtime reward" be given off of actually earning it on the court gametime..

    The HECK with just rewarding PT off of (in my best Allen Iverson voice) practice. Real , in-game contributions is what should warrant more PT to these players.. Yes practice may be where coach gets to be more up-close and personal with our guys.. But a guy could light it up in practice , then fold under pressure and play like utter ***** in every other game he plays ..

    I think we have the talent to do some good things .
    But untill JOB either "gets it" , or has his "ah-ha" moment , it is gonna be an uphill battle developing on-court chemistry , and a winning environment on the court and in the locker room..

    I really think the players themselves are acually learning to play to each other's strengths and weaknesses..and starting to mesh well..
    But it is taking them longer than it should be .. And I think it all falls on what I mentioned above...

    Look at when we had the injury / flu problem for a few games..
    Our end of the bench guys came in , and got the job done..
    Heck I think we won a decent percentage of the games in that stretch..

    What I am saying , is I believe our players could be better utilized to their full potential..
    I really think McRoberts could be our answer to a PF.. But only playing 1 out of every 5 games for a only a few minutes ISN'T GONNA DO IT ! ...

    I think Rasho/Hibbert with some very ltd Foster should man the C position , Foster/McBob at PF with some DG in there ,splitting duties @ the SF as well .. and on down the line .. etc..

    I hate seeing McRoberts not get a fair shake, considering how good he has been in his ltd minutes out on the court .. I see it as time going by and talent wasted ..

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    Then we got Hibbert...he is 7"2 for Heaven's sake..

    And when he is playing damn good, don't pull him for the rest of the game , after only 3 fouls... Then only play him every 3 games for 10-15 minutes .. JUST TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN..!! in a cycle.. over and over again..
    Roy isn't gonna learn from his mistakes on fouling, if you pull him for good like that for the game.. He needs to be punished, by LETTING him foul his way out the game...
    That way , his time on the court will be dependant on how he manages his fouls.. and how he plays...Otherwise, you are gonna have a timid giant in Roy Hibbert, afraid of drawing himself a foul..
    It is gonna do more harm , than good.. He needs to be out there LEARNING how to position himself in real games.. not (in my best Allen Iverson voice) PRACTICE only ...

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    Last edited by Kemo; 01-15-2009 at 01:41 AM.
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