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Thread: When did the pacers become so good defensively

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default When did the pacers become so good defensively

    It is still really early in the season - so I have not looked at the team stats. But in reading Wells article this morning I was surprised the Pacers were tied with the Cavs in defensive field goal percentage 3rd (behind only the Celts and Lakers) opponents are shooting 42.3% - that is excellent. Pacers also lead the NBA in block shots and they are in the top 6 in forcing turnovers. - Granted their defensive rebounding is average at best - but overall the defensive stats show the Pacers as being one of the best defensive teams in the NBA.

    Is this an aberation? Will this last the whole season? Why are the stats sooo good?

    Sure, Daniels in the lineup and Dunleavy out has helped the overall defense some - but not nearly as much as having Ford and Jack replace Jamaal and Diener - that is a huge, huge upgrade. Almost as important as the point guard position is that the players seem to be buying into - accepting the system much much better - fewer missed assignments - fewer players completely lost (Harrison, Ike) -
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-20-2008 at 10:15 AM.

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    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    I think its the guys we brought in. Theyre more athletic and quicker. Theyre able to get into the passing lanes and get steals. They able to get up quick and help on the weak side for an easy block.

    Have you guys noticed that most of our steals and blocks have come from our PGs and swingmen, like Granger, Quis, Ford and Jack? Or am I wrong?

    I did notice that Foster is averaging a block shot a game which is good for him. But i recall Murphy or Rasho doing much
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Why are the stats sooo good?
    Defense? Man that's not who I am. Should've known...

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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    If you look at our team individually, we really have some pretty good defenders. Murphy is the only 'bad' defender in out current rotation, and I don't even think he's half as bad as people make him out to be. I'm surprised we're ranked as high as we are at this point, but I'm not surprised we're a good defensive team.

  5. #5

    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    I think they can sustain it--however commitment and effort will be required. So if we are winning, I think we'll keep seeing the effort, if not, then it may be another story.

    Also, we would still be weak for teams that bomb 3 pointers and hit open ones, and we have a tough time stopping guys on the low block.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    I think this team was open to the idea that defense leads to offense. Previous incarnations were simply not convinced by that, either due to bad experience or an inflated sense of their own individual offensive prowess.

    I also think that team defense is one of those things that hangs on chemistry - if you have a team that is comfortable with one another and enjoys playing together, they communicate better in all ways. Team defense is vitally dependent on communication.

    I suspect we've been successful against teams that need to get into some sort of organic flow to score points. The test will be against teams like the Lakers who play a very disciplined offense.
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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    It's a fun team to watch.

    When the opponent gets the ball, I just get this feeling that we can stop them, that we even have the ability to lock them down.

    They're not as good as the Pistons from a couple years back, but it's the same kind of feeling.

    Regarding why the stats are so good, also remember that 1/2 the games last year we didn't have JO, others a hobbled form of JO. This year we basically have Rasho playing those minutes, and he's good.

    Also, don't discount that our team leader is Granger. He's got the kind of character that would lead by example and inspire others to take pride in defense as a team.
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    In this order-

    Desire
    Personnel
    Team concept

    I don't mean this as a cop out, but I really think with JO, Ike, Harrison, and Tinsley gone that you have gotten rid of 4 really bad defenders.

    I'll start with JO. He is a good shot blocker, that's it, I truely believe he is a below average low post defender. How many times do you remember a Josh Boone type having career games against him. I also think JO was a sometime defender one on one. Now I have to give credit about him drawing charges, but again, I think his one on one defense was almost poor because he isn't equipped to bang and not quick enough to guard a perimeter player. Now you have Murphy and Jeff in that spot. Jeff is a big upgrade and Murphy has dramatically improved this year, imho.

    Ike-he's the anti Rasho. He must have one of the lowest B BAll IQ's in the league.

    Harrison a foul waiting to happen.

    Tinsley-well no need to rehash that.

  9. #9
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    I find it interesting that UB is the one asking the question.

    UB, you are the person I would have gone to first to find answers about the Pacers' defense.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I find it interesting that UB is the one asking the question.

    UB, you are the person I would have gone to first to find answers about the Pacers' defense.
    It is a rhetorical device used to get others to make the argument on your behalf, thus boosting your proposition.
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  11. #11
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    7/9/08

    Or

    6/26/08

    Depending on whether you want to count the day of or the day it became official

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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    As I mentioned in the Pacers/Hawks Post Game thread, we are rebounding better now....which IMHO makes a big difference on both ends of the court.

    2007-2008 : Total Rebounds Per Game is 43.1 rpg while holding our Opponents to 45.5 rpg.

    2008-2009 : Total Rebounds Per Game is 45 rpg while holding our Opponents to 43.9 rpg.

    This year, WE are outrebounding our opponents by 1.1 rpb compared to last year when our opponents were outrebounding us by 2.4 rpg.

    I really think that having a somewhat healthy PF/C rotation ( most notably with a True Center like Rasho who has the skills and IQ to play the right way ) that focuses more on Defense/Rebounding has made a huge difference in the lineup on both ends of the court.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that ONCE we are as healthy as we are going to get....with the return of Dunleavy and Diener and the entire PF/C rotation is healthy....that we will be far more competitive in games and will actually do much better then most of us suspect.
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  13. #13
    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    What I notice is our team almost dares the STARS of this league to beat us. Hence the reason we give up so many HUGE games to players like amare etc. While defending the rest of the team very well.

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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    7/9/08

    Or

    6/26/08

    Depending on whether you want to count the day of or the day it became official
    Yep.

    Certainly the addition of Ford and Jack had significant impact on the ability to slow down and defend the opposition. But having decent defenders at the point also helps protect your wing players and frontcourt players from getting extra fouls trying to pick up a man that just blew by your PG.

    The addition of Hibbert and Rush helps as well. As does a healthy Daniels.

    But I also credit the concept. We obviously have added players that are able to implement the defensive philosophy. The players have bought into contending every shot and getting deflections, even if as individuals they have no real chance at the steal. Since many deflected passes become 50-50 balls, players buying into JOB's defensive philosophy has made a huge difference.

  15. #15
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    You solved the PG issue, you made a giant improvement at SG defense, you stopped asking Quis to play out of position, you stopped asking Jeff/Troy to play as an undersized PF...

    I mean it's not like they changed much really.



    Also I've been very impressed with the extent that Foster and Quis get this system. The unit has been good, but they've been exceptional with the overall team strategy at that end and are helping make it look really good. Not sure about Quis but I've definitely caught Jeff giving guidance to other guys on the court.

    I'm not a JO basher but there is truth to the idea that moving him cleared the way for guys to feel more confident in what roles they play, both spoken and on court.


    But in terms of what physically happens on court that makes it look better I think the main thing is this: you had lane pentration that drew wing defenders to the lane and left the corners open for shots.

    Now you turn that away and force the ball to move to the corners without a huge lane committment up front, and that leaves them available to help when you force guys to go baseline instead.

    Making teams attack from the corners rather than from up top is helping the team defense immensely.

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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by justinDOHMAN View Post
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    What I notice is our team almost dares the STARS of this league to beat us. Hence the reason we give up so many HUGE games to players like amare etc. While defending the rest of the team very well.
    i think this had more to do with missing rasho and having better perimeter defense than post defense. we had to pair jeff and troy together guarding shaq and amare. besides amare was due for a huge game as a combination of having shaq play surprisingly better this year and terry porter's offense has provided him a bunch of underwhelming games.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively


  18. #18
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    Our defense is on Viagra.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    2007-2008 : Total Rebounds Per Game is 43.1 rpg while holding our Opponents to 45.5 rpg.

    2008-2009 : Total Rebounds Per Game is 45 rpg while holding our Opponents to 43.9 rpg.

    This year, WE are outrebounding our opponents by 1.1 rpb compared to last year when our opponents were outrebounding us by 2.4 rpg.
    Be careful of this stat because it doesn't account for improved FG% or improved FG% defense.

    Typically you have something like a 1:5 ratio in OFF/DEF boards, so that if you make the other team miss more shots in the first place you are going to improve your RPG. And if you stop missing as many shots you are going to reduce the RPG of your opponent.

    This is why sites like Basektball-Reference will use REB% to measure how effective you are at getting rebounds. OFF REB/Total shots you missed or DEF REB/Total shots your opponent misssed.

    I haven't looked yet so it may still be that this is an improvement, but you'd want to verify it.

    Not unlike "our PPG is up or down" while ignoring pace and wondering why the defensive PPG is "out of control" or "fixed".

  20. #20
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    So then you blame Dick Harter for the horrible defense last year?

    I agree the scheme seems solid, but he didn't just figure it out this year. They improved some talent at spots on the court in order to make it work right/better.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    In this order-

    Desire
    Personnel
    Team concept

    I don't mean this as a cop out, but I really think with JO, Ike, Harrison, and Tinsley gone that you have gotten rid of 4 really bad defenders.

    I'll start with JO. He is a good shot blocker, that's it, I truely believe he is a below average low post defender. How many times do you remember a Josh Boone type having career games against him. I also think JO was a sometime defender one on one. Now I have to give credit about him drawing charges, but again, I think his one on one defense was almost poor because he isn't equipped to bang and not quick enough to guard a perimeter player. Now you have Murphy and Jeff in that spot. Jeff is a big upgrade and Murphy has dramatically improved this year, imho.

    Ike-he's the anti Rasho. He must have one of the lowest B BAll IQ's in the league.

    Harrison a foul waiting to happen.

    Tinsley-well no need to rehash that.
    Speed 'went there' and I totally agree with his analysis.

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  22. #22

    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Now you turn that away and force the ball to move to the corners without a huge lane committment up front, and that leaves them available to help when you force guys to go baseline instead.

    Making teams attack from the corners rather than from up top is helping the team defense immensely.
    This is the #1 strategic difference, not the much-hyped pick-n-roll change. Why we didn't figure this out last year is beyond me. ::shrugs::

    I also want to point out something that a lot of people might disagree with. Rasho Nesterovic is a huge key to our defensive success. He is almost NEVER out of position. And as a result of forcing guys to the corners, having him in the right position all the time is really discouraging opponents to go at the hoop. If we'd tried this last year with Jermaine in the middle...wow.

  23. #23

    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    I agree with the other poster about it was the day we made the trade.

    JO was terrible. Ike and Harrison were pipe dreams, and Tinsley was the worse PG to ever put on a jersey in Indiana.

    Anyone not knowing our team D would improve with Rush, Ford, Rasho, Jack, and maybe Hibbert in the future, just had completely lost faith.

    People were calling for Larry's head, when this was the first year he attained control of the team. This was a miraculous offseason. Just like when fixing rust on a car, you have to cut it out, and weld in patch panels. We have finally cut the rust and the cancer has stopped spreading. The Williams trade and Tinsley disowning was as big of a part of this than the actual players we added.

    Danny has also stepped his game WAY up, and Marquis is having a break out year. Murphy has stepped his whole game up another notch. His defense is improveed as well. If DunDun has improved at all on D, which Im positive it is something he has been working on, we are stacked when he gets back.

    I really mean it when I say we are one of the deepest teams in the league. Everywhere except maybe PF. We have 4 centers in Rasho, Foster, Murphy, and Hibbert, but we will have to see how it pans out this year till I determine we need a PF.

    I have my eye on Joe Smith and DJ White from OKC though. I would like to get them both. I'd trade our 2nd round picks for the next three years if I was Larry. I'm not one to say that's what it would take though.

    Anyone else would like to see DJ White playing PF for us in the future? Joe Smith is right now answer for me.

  24. #24
    Formerly QuickRelease NapTonius Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    JO was terrible. Ike and Harrison were pipe dreams, and Tinsley was the worse PG to ever put on a jersey in Indiana.
    Do you mean defensively, or overall?

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    Default Re: When did the pacers become so good defensively

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    I have my eye on Joe Smith and DJ White from OKC though. I would like to get them both. I'd trade our 2nd round picks for the next three years if I was Larry. I'm not one to say that's what it would take though.

    Anyone else would like to see DJ White playing PF for us in the future? Joe Smith is right now answer for me.
    I agree....despite his age....Joe Smith isn't my 1st choice as the rotational Big Man that I would want to play behind Murphy and next to Hibbert or Foster....but if other quality rotational PFs aren't available....I wouldn't mind signing Joe Smith as a solid Vet for 2 seasons.
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