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Thread: Danny Granger for MVP?

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    Default Danny Granger for MVP?

    Rob Peterson
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    http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...107/index.html

    Just thought it brings up an interesting debate whether a player on a losing team could be the leagues MVP. In the past Alex Rodriguez has come to mind, but that was in a different sport. I would think the player would have to have insane numbers ina season for this to happen.

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    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    LOL I just posted this about 5 min ago http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=43698
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    No way he should be in the running unless we not only make it to the playoffs, but have a top 5 seed. This is laughable. Caron Butler for president.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Paul Pierce for best player in the world.

    Out of curiosity, has somebody ever won MVP before they were even an all-star?

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    As a Danny Granger fan, I feel compelled to post this before one of the rock-throwers does:

    The Pacers are 2-1 in games that Danny missed this year, and went to double OT in the third.

    The wins were against the Nets (without Devin Harris) and the Sixers (without Elton Brand). The loss was the Clips. It's not like they were playing spectacular competition, but it does negate the point that "Lee" was trying to make.

    Love Danny to death, but he's not an MVP candidate.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    LOL I just posted this about 5 min ago http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=43698
    LOL sorry Miller normally it tells me when something has already been posted about it. My bad dude.

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    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhondog28 View Post
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    LOL sorry Miller normally it tells me when something has already been posted about it. My bad dude.
    Its all good
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    I'll echo count in saying that I love Danny, but this isn't even a debate. He's not an MVP candidate.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    I would never consider a player an MVP candidate unless his team is one of the best in the NBA. The object is to win - stats really mean nothing.

    Right now I would vote for Lebron James - not because of his stats, but because right now the Cavs have the best record in the NBA.

    Picking MVP is really simple to me, I just look at the best 5 or 6 teams - look for the best player on those teams and decide. Last year in a lot of ways it come down to Kobe of Paul and because the lakers won more games I would have voted for Kobe
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-07-2009 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Yeah, Jordan averaged like 37 points in 86-87, but the Bulls just won 40 games. Obviously, he didn't win MVP.

    This year the MVP is Lebron's to lose. Unless the Cavs have a downward spiral (unlikely), I see it being a runaway win for him.

    Sure Kobe deserved the MVP for last season, but I think that vote was also a recognition for his 8 or so outstanding seasons before that. I think there will be a similar case for LBJ this year. He will no doubt deserve the MVP for his 08-09 performance, but I think it will also be a recognition for his previous 5 years of outstanding basketball.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I would never consider a player an MVP candidate unless his team is one of the best in the NBA. The object is to win - stats really mean nothing.
    Aw, it hurts my feelings to read, "stats really mean nothing."

    Could we say, rather, that a player's stats mean more in the context of a winning team -- especially a championship-winning team -- than in the context of a team that produces little more than the player's performance?

    Or, his team's W/L record is one very important measure of a player's performance, and looking at a player's stats without considering his team isn't a complete or meaningful way of assessing him?
    And I won't be here to see the day
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    For winning basketball, stats really do mean nothing.

    No matter which metric you use, or which complex formula you devise, if you show me a player trying to improve his team's winning % by focusing on a stat or formula, I'll show you a misguided player.

    Box scores are extremely deceiving.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    I agree about Danny but I don't think it's totally fair to dismiss a player because he's not on one of the top teams. In 2005-2006 Kobe Bryant led a terrible Lakers team to 45 wins. They almost beat the Suns in the first round as a seven seed. I thought he deserved the MVP easily(although Steve Nash got it instead). Without Kobe Bryant, that was a 15-20 win team. Maybe. If the Pacers were around .500 or a few games above, I think Danny would have gotten serious MVP consideration given that we are not a .500 team (especially without Mike).

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Aw, it hurts my feelings to read, "stats really mean nothing."

    Could we say, rather, that a player's stats mean more in the context of a winning team -- especially a championship-winning team -- than in the context of a team that produces little more than the player's performance?

    Or, his team's W/L record is one very important measure of a player's performance, and looking at a player's stats without considering his team isn't a complete or meaningful way of assessing him?
    Ahem

    W L RECORD IS A STAT ITSELF.

    Sheesh. Kudos for Putty wading in there, but Buck and Jay are stubborn ones, a few of the many.

    How many players have won an MVP without first making an AS team - that's a stat.
    How many players win MVP from a losing team - stat.
    How many players are on the Pacers roster - stat.

    How many words are in this post - stat.


    Stats are fine, misuse of stats are the problem many of you are actually concerned with.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Box scores are extremely limited, simplistic and lose much of the subtlety of what actually happened in the game.
    Fixed.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    But there is no causal relationship between any individual player stat or metric and winning/losing.

    If you care about who puts up the best stats for a fantasy league, that's fine.

    The statistics are the outcome of playing the game. Yeah, you can sometimes tell that a player did some things well or poorly, but you still can't make a connection to winning and losing without introducing the W/L variables into the stat (thus, a causality problem.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    But there is no causal relationship between any individual player stat or metric and winning/losing.

    If you care about who puts up the best stats for a fantasy league, that's fine.

    The statistics are the outcome of playing the game. Yeah, you can sometimes tell that a player did some things well or poorly, but you still can't make a connection to winning and losing without introducing the W/L variables into the stat (thus, a causality problem.)
    I'd like to see some sort of correlative algorhythm or metric developed to see how individual success relates to team wins. If there is a certain kind of formula for individual success (e.g. a player scores above 20ppg but it's not more than 20% of that team's points) which translates to team success.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Statistics are a tool. They provide some information, but absolutely positively need context. They can be overemphasized, but to reject them as meaningless is just as big of a sin.

    In the context of MVP, it is certainly reasonable to provide significant weight to wins and losses. However, statistics can be very useful in helping to understand what happened in a game, how a player plays, indicate both a player and a team's strengths and weaknesses. Statistics are not deceiving, they are simply an incomplete picture.

    As an example, prior to the Denver game, the Pacers were giving up 104.9 points on .456 shooting. Today, these are considered atrocious numbers. On a lark, I had decided to check out some stats from the '80's. I first decided to look at the 1986 Celtics, primarily because I always considered them one of the best teams of my lifetime. Much to my surprise, they had given up 104.7 points on .461 shooting. However, in 1986, those represented the third lowest Opp PPG and the lowest OPP FG% in the league. (This season, they would be good for 5th highest and 10th highest.)

    I've always believed that data and statistics should be used very judiciously. However, I've also always believed that they must be used. They are the tangible numbers that help us understand our intangible impressions.

    I end this meandering with quotes I consider apropos:

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown (occasionally attributed to Dumas)
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    Any virtue carried to an extreme becomes a vice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
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    Statistics are often used as a drunk uses a lightpole...for support, rather than illumination.

  19. #19
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Not a chance.

    Maybe if we were 22-12, rather than 12-22.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Thanks to Seth for picking up the gauntlet.

    Now, when Count says
    Statistics are a tool. They provide some information, but absolutely positively need context
    ...he is right. a context is needed, and that context can easily be provided with more data. It's not enough to look at players' scoring averages. We agree. Bu we could take that same information and put it into context by graphing a second dimension of team W/L. then you would have 4 quadrants: high scorers on winning teams; high scorers on losing teams; low scorers on winning teams; low scorers on losing teams. There would still be some nebulousness, but there would be a lot of clarity, too. It is best to be in the 1st cell, worst to be in the 4th one. Further clarification could come with further data.

    The defect that both J and Buck are deploring is concluding too much from a given amount of information. We all agree that that is wrong. Stats often don't means what somebody carelessly interprets them to mean. But they never mean nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ
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    The statistics are the outcome of playing the game.
    But they are also the inputs that determine that outcome. (I'm not sure if both statements are compatible or not.)

    there is no causal relationship between any individual player stat or metric and winning/losing.
    You are still thinking of Anthony Johnson's 41 in the playoffs, aren't you?

    .
    Last edited by Putnam; 01-07-2009 at 09:16 PM.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    The statistics are the outcome of playing the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    But they are also the inputs that determine that outcome. (I'm not sure if both statements are compatible or not.)
    No, stats are measurements of actions that take place during the game. Whether you are measuring the right things has nothing to do with the validity of the measurements themselves.

    And that is why you can't just take somebody's numbers and plug them into an equations. First, you probably don't have all of the inputs, second is that you don't have all the ways the inputs interact.

    In this case, clearly individual player collected statistics are important in determining an MVP. However, the overriding input is that the team has to be at least contending if not the top team in the league for the player numbers to be taken into account.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    LOL I just posted this about 5 min ago http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=43698
    Of course you did...lol

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    No, stats are measurements of actions that take place during the game.

    Rebounds, points, steals, blocks, turnovers, FG%, FT's, fouls etc are all stats and they certainly determine the outcome of the game.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    But they are also the inputs that determine that outcome. (I'm not sure if both statements are compatible or not.)
    I don't think so. The outcome is, Did Team A outscore Team B?
    There is no cause-and-effect between an individual stat and won-loss record. When Wilt averaged 50 ppg, did his team win all the time? No. When Wilt led the league in assists (just to prove he could do it), did his team win all the time? No. Rebounds? No.

    No. No. No. No. No.

    In economics, we talk about leading indicators, concurrent indicators, and trailing indicators. There are no individual player leading or concurrent indicators to predict a team's wins and losses. The entire (and well accepted notion) that a player can put up big stats on a losing team should make this a no-brainer. We'll call it the Clark Kellogg effect. He calls it a stat-sheet-stuffer with a straight face (even though he's referring to himself, of course.) And every losing team has to have a "leading scorer", right? (And for Will Galen's sake, every team, no matter how bad the roster, has a "starting PG" - even if the player sucks as a PG and couldn't start for any other team in the league.) So you are left relying on trailing indicators, which don't even tell you who played well or not, they just tell a few things that were measured along the way that may or may not be useful.

    When I was younger, I used to like the A/TO ratio for PGs. Until I figured out that a PG could play 40+ minutes, have three assists to one turnover (thus, an outstanding ATO ratio) but ONLY HAVE THREE ASSISTS!! Yeesh, what did the guy spend thirty-six minutes doing out there with the ball?? Nothing? Or did his teammates just miss opportunities? Or does he shoot too much? Or, as it turns out, ATO doesn't actually tell us very much.

    You are still thinking of Anthony Johnson's 41 in the playoffs, aren't you?.


    One of the worst playoff performances I've ever seen. In a team context, of course. Clearly he did shoot the ball pretty well on the way to a crushing defeat.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny Granger for MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Rebounds, points, steals, blocks, turnovers, FG%, FT's, fouls etc are all stats and they certainly determine the outcome of the game.
    Let's start with the first one.

    Explain how you can look only at rebounds and predict the winner of a game?

    Again, trailing indicators don't "determine" the outcome of a game. You might be able to use them to help explain what already happened, or you might not.

    How many times has the team with more offensive rebounds, more defensive rebounds, and/or more total rebounds lost the game? dozens? hundreds? perhaps thousands of times?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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