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Thread: Peyton Manning

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    If your running game is struggling, it is probably not the RBs fault.

    It takes seven different guys to fix the running game: LT, LG, C, RG, RT, TE, and FB. If they create holes, even a guy like Willie Parker can have 1,000+ yard seasons, and he couldn't even get on the field in college.

    Your starter is probably neither the problem nor the solution. He's probably neutral. The other guy didn't really have much success running the ball, either.
    In his brief time, Rhodes looked better than Addai the other night.

    The blocking was suspect in 07, but Addai looked much better than he did this year.

    It's not all Addai's fault, but he isn't the same player that he was in 06 and 07

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    If your running game is struggling, it is probably not the RBs fault.

    It takes seven different guys to fix the running game: LT, LG, C, RG, RT, TE, and FB. If they create holes, even a guy like Willie Parker can have 1,000+ yard seasons, and he couldn't even get on the field in college.

    Your starter is probably neither the problem nor the solution. He's probably neutral. The other guy didn't really have much success running the ball, either.
    The Colts O-Line hasn't been able to run block all year. It's amazing how often they get pushed into the backfield. Almost like they're using pass blocking technique to run block. I still think a 2-back backfield would help it - some.

    It would be interesting to know how often Colts backs get hit in the backfield - it's a lot.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    In no way is Manning to blame for the loss. It wasn't just him.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I get sick and tired of hearing how it's always Peyton's fault.

    People have already said the lack of running game which means the o-line was poor, plus the defense was poor.

    The fact that the Colts made the playoffs and were even in a position to win that game shows you how freaking good Peyton Manning is.

    Hopefully this team can get healthy and re-tool in the offseason. I wonder if Caldwell takes over next season maybe taking over might mean a little different defensive philosphy from what Dungy likes.

    I just hope some changes our made. It's a shame to watch first round losses with Peyton Manning as your quarterback. The Colts will be lucky to ever have another quarterback half as good as Peyton and those who complain and blame it all on him won't realize what the Colts have until he is gone.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Romnie, I disagree you hear it is always Manning's Fault. The local media in Indianapolis loves Manning and is afraid to write a bad story about him. He has free reign over the offense and fails to produce in the playoffs. Donovan McNabb take heat in Philly & Eli takes heat in New York. Peyton should get some of the blame because he makes the most money.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    And the argument can easily be made that both cities' completely overreact. They are not even close to the example of how Indy and the Star should handle the Colts, or any of the players.

    We might treat them with kid gloves around here, but NY/Philly are on the far end of the spectrum.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    And in both cases, the overall teams are much better than the Colts - except for the Colts passing offense personnel.

    In those cases, the QB is more likely to screw up "an already good thing" than to carry them on his back. And so he should be criticized for that.

    Same in Pittsburgh, especially since Ben now has the huge contract...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  8. #33

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Is the most overrated player in the NFL. Nowhere near as clutch as Tom Brady. It is nice to throw for 4,000 yards a season. It is nice to have 12 victories a season. It is common to continually lose your first game in the playoffs.

    He has a losing record in the playoffs. 7-8. He only has one game winning drive in 15 playoff games. The year we won the super bowl the defense got the job done.

    He pads his stats by doing dink and dunk passes on first down and not establishing the run game.
    i'm sorry, but did you realize that peyton manning ranks 12th all time in the nfl as far as yards/pass attempt? so much for your dink and dunk theory. yes, this year was his third lowest season in his career as far as y/a, but do you understand the colts' rushing game nearly ranked last in the nfl in all rushing statistics?

  9. #34

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Holy cow, the post that started this thread is some of the most silly thing's I've heard a person say (type).

    And man, when you get ChicagoJ talking about something other than the Steelers he seems on point. Just need to steer clear of those Steeler discussions

    -- Steve --

  10. #35

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacers#1Fan View Post
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    I want to know where the hell Addie went this season. Yeah he was injured but I'm still shocked he disappeared like he did.
    It wasn't just this year, it started in 07. Week 10 to be exact. Look at his game log from that year .... it's quite a identifiable week that it happens ... first 7 games he has only 1 game with a YPC under 4 yards. After that he had 3 days of a 4 YPC average or higher, but those were also his 3 games with the lowest total carries in the game as well. Pretty pathetic.



    http://www.databasefootball.com/play...kid=ADDAIJOS01

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  11. #36
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    Holy cow, the post that started this thread is some of the most silly thing's I've heard a person say (type).

    -- Steve --
    This is exactly what I am talking about. I criticize Manning & his play calling for losing year after year in the playoffs and people get real upset. The dude makes over 20 million dollars a year in salary and endorsements and has never bought me a drink or given me a free ticket. He is not Jesus! He does have a losing record in the playoffs.

  12. #37

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    This is exactly what I am talking about. I criticize Manning & his play calling for losing year after year in the playoffs and people get real upset. The dude makes over 20 million dollars a year in salary and endorsements and has never bought me a drink or given me a free ticket. He is not Jesus! He does have a losing record in the playoffs.
    Strangely enough, THIS is what I'M talking about. Peyton Manning doesn't have a losing record in the playoffs at all. The INDIANAPOLIS COLTS do.

    Your right, he isn't Jesus. Yet you're the one wanting to hold him up on the pedestal like he is. How can you denounce him by claiming something like that, but then stick him with ALL the blame? It's silly, and contradictory. So which is it? Is he Jesus and should carry the whole team to victory all the way to the Super Bowl, or is he not Jesus and he needs his teammates to do their job? Make some sense, please.

    Exactly my point. Thanks for making it for me. In case you haven't watched football much (maybe from Europe) ... there are ELEVEN players on the field at a time. Last I checked, there's only ONE Peyton Manning. Of course, Peyton doesn't play defense, or even special teams. So that is 33 different jobs on the NFL field ... and shockingly only 1 of them belongs to ... *gasp* Peyton Manning.

    But of course .... if the Colts lose it's ALL his fault.

    -- Steve --
    Last edited by Pacersfan46; 01-09-2009 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    This is exactly what I am talking about. I criticize Manning & his play calling for losing year after year in the playoffs and people get real upset. The dude makes over 20 million dollars a year in salary and endorsements and has never bought me a drink or given me a free ticket. He is not Jesus! He does have a losing record in the playoffs.
    I thought that was Dungy.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    Strangely enough, THIS is what I'M talking about. Peyton Manning doesn't have a losing record in the playoffs at all. The INDIANAPOLIS COLTS do.

  15. #40

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Strangely enough, though, Peyton Manning is heaped praise for "carrying" his team to victory in the regular season but then when he fails to carry his team to victory, over the same opponent, with the same teammates, in the playoffs, then no part of it is his fault. His teammates suddenly got much worse and caused his average playoff passer rating to drop 16 points from his regular season average, his TD/INT ratio to trend toward 1, his completion percentage to go down, his yards per attempt to go down, etc. etc.

    I know that all these statistics normally do diminish somewhat in the playoffs, since you are only playing good teams, but not to this extent. Most years (not this one) you also hear yourself thinking "what sort of a throw was that? What was he thinking? He would never have thrown that pass in the regular season!"

    Manning should not take all the blame for the big disparity in regular season & postseason success for the Colts in seasons other than 2006-2007. But the contention that he may have some role in it is not unreasonable.

    His role in the disappointments is a lot less than the coaches and player personnel people, in my opinion, who seem to have their priroties on entertaining offenses and quarterback sacks on defense rather than balanced rosters with less star power and more good-by-not-great players providing depth and competence at all positions. Little weaknesses are exposed in the playoffs, even if they were hardly noticeable in the regular season.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-09-2009 at 11:53 PM.

  16. #41

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    I know that all these statistics normally do diminish somewhat in the playoffs, since you are only playing good teams, but not to this extent.
    I have not done enough research to argue this point, but I would also doubt you have done enough to truly claim it either. I would bet this is more of a perception than well done research and knowledge of fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    then when he fails to carry his team to victory, over the same opponent, with the same teammates, in the playoffs, then no part of it is his fault. His teammates suddenly got much worse
    How did they suddenly get 'worse', if he needed to carry them in the first place? Granted, I'm not saying he ever does 'carry' them, just going off of your choice of words.

    However in the first game the running yardage difference was 29 yards for SD. In the playoffs the difference was 103 yards. Since Peyton doesn't run or block, I would say yes, that's a sign of his teammates not doing their job as well as they did in the regular season. Peyton isn't on defense or special teams where they kept repeatedly getting pinned inside their own 10 yard line, I would say yes, a sign of teammates not doing their job as well. Granted it was the single greatest game I've ever seen a punter have in his entire life, in any game or at any level.

    In fact, without SD making key mistakes (fumble at the 1, interception) this game isn't close, or even in overtime. Which would be without Peyton making any major mistakes and in fact playing better than he did in the regular season. So if he plays at or above the level he does in the regular season and still loses .... how is the difference NOT on the teammates?

    -- Steve --
    Last edited by Pacersfan46; 01-10-2009 at 08:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    In fact, without SD making key mistakes (fumble at the 1, interception) this game isn't close, or even in overtime. Which would be without Peyton making any major mistakes and in fact playing better than he did in the regular season. So if he plays at or above the level he does in the regular season and still loses .... how is the difference NOT on the teammates?

    -- Steve --
    Well, if we're going to go down this road a lot of the difference was SD being a much better team and playing much better than they were when they played during the season.

    This wasn't a powerhouse Colts team that got taken out early a couple of other times - it was a flawed team that was one play away from losing a lot of games.

    In this case the one play was Gijon Robinson not knowing the snap count on 3rd and 2. You don't want to blame one player but that was THE key play - and the fault for that particular play is 100% on the guy who never got out of his stance to block, not Manning (unless Manning didn't tell him a changed snap count when he went up and down the line which I doubt we'll ever know).
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  18. #43

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Well, if we're going to go down this road a lot of the difference was SD being a much better team and playing much better than they were when they played during the season.

    This wasn't a powerhouse Colts team that got taken out early a couple of other times - it was a flawed team that was one play away from losing a lot of games.

    In this case the one play was Gijon Robinson not knowing the snap count on 3rd and 2. You don't want to blame one player but that was THE key play - and the fault for that particular play is 100% on the guy who never got out of his stance to block, not Manning (unless Manning didn't tell him a changed snap count when he went up and down the line which I doubt we'll ever know).
    I know you quoted me, but I was going off of someone else's inferred position that it's the same team in the same year so it should always merit the same result. However none of what you said contradicts the point I was making either way.

    -- Steve --

  19. #44

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    I have not done enough research to argue this point, but I would also doubt you have done enough to truly claim it either. I would bet this is more of a perception than well done research and knowledge of fact.
    with websites like profootballreference.com, the research is trivially easy to do.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0_playoffs.htm

    just looking at passer ratings, for example,

    Manning's regular season passer ratings drops 9.8 points in the playoffs. In the same analysis, Brady's drops 4.9 points. Montana's went up by 3.9. Elway's drops 0.1. Warren Moon's goes up 3.6.

    There are much bigger drops in thing like TD/INT ratio for PM, campared to the alltime greats.

    I'm not saying PM is Gary Hogeboom or Jeff George. I am saying that among the top 15 or so QBs of all time, first ballot HOF locks, his playoff dropoffs are a consideration when placing him among the elite of the elite

  20. #45
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I do not expect the Colts to win the Super Bowl every year. I do expect Manning and our offense to have better numbers in the post season b/c we cater to that side of the ball each draft. Instead of taking a LB or DT we take WR & OL. With our team doing this year in and year out our offense with the Messiah at QB should be able to put up more than 17pts in a playoff game. I hold Manning accountable for this loss. He is the one who called an audible and went with an empty backfield on third and 2.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    If you're expecting a passing team to improve its passing game in the playoffs, well, good luck with that. Your problem is that you are catering and drafting to a very flawed playoff strategy (unless you happen to have "dome" field advantage throughout the playoffs.)

    Playoffs almost always mean cold weather, and are won with the running game and defense.

    I think San Diego is a better "cold weather" team than people give them credit for, so they could play an interesting game tomorrow (forecast of about 20 degrees and snow) because they can run the ball and their defense improved a lot under Rivera.

    I'd feel much, much, much, much, much, much more confident playing a soft pass-oriented team in the playoffs in Pittsburgh. Sure, Rivers can pass the ball too, but there is a lot more to the Chargers than just him.

    Very, very few "high octane" passing offenses have ever had postseason success, and when they do lightning does not often strike a second time (although the Rams "Greatest show on turf" did make the Super Bowl twice.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  22. #47
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    If you're expecting a passing team to improve its passing game in the playoffs, well, good luck with that. Your problem is that you are catering and drafting to a very flawed playoff strategy (unless you happen to have "dome" field advantage throughout the playoffs.)
    It appears we can be One and Dungy'ed in the dome just as easy as on the road....

    We're a team not built for playoff success coached by a coach who has a reputation for playoff failures. Is it any wonder why we keep having these discussions year after year?

    -Bball
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  23. #48
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    It appears we can be One and Dungy'ed in the dome just as easy as on the road....

    We're a team not built for playoff success coached by a coach who has a reputation for playoff failures. Is it any wonder why we keep having these discussions year after year?

    -Bball
    QFT

    I hate New England, but I have to respect them. Sure BB is an asswipe, but the Brady-Belichick combo has never lost a home playoff game at Foxboro. They defend their field, and that's what great teams do. I despise the Pats (I like Brady and Moss, most of my dislike is because of BB), but I have to admire what they have accomplished.

    The Patriot eliminations from 05-07 were:

    A loss at Denver (a week after blowing out the Jags at home)
    A loss at Indy to a Colt team that made a miraculous comeback (Beat Jets at home and Chargers on road)
    A loss in the SB (beat Jax and SD at home)

    I know we make fun of New England for going undefeated and losing the SB (it was hilarious), but losing the Super Bowl is still far better than crapping your pants at a home divisional game (which is what the Colts did last year). If Dungy had won 3/4 Superbowls, I think Colts fans would be demanding that he be put on Mt Rushmore.

    But that's the difference between a great team and an underachieving one. The Brady-Belichick Patriots have never gone one and out in the playoffs. The Colts OTOH have done it 4 out of 7 years with Dungy. And that's why Belichick is a better coach than Dungy. I thought we got the playoff monkey off of our back with the SB win. Thus, if someone would have told me after the SB that the Colts wouldn't win a single playoff game over the next 2 seasons then I would have called them crazy. But they would have been right.

    That's also why the Patriots are the superior team of the decade. The Colts had some golden opportunities to make ground on them (05, this year), but have come up short one too many times.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-10-2009 at 04:32 PM.

  24. #49

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    Manning's regular season passer ratings drops 9.8 points in the playoffs. In the same analysis, Brady's drops 4.9 points. Montana's went up by 3.9. Elway's drops 0.1. Warren Moon's goes up 3.6.
    Ok ... how about these playoff drops in rating ...

    All are Hall of Famers, mind you.

    Steve Young - 11 points
    Len Dawson - 18 points
    Dan Fouts - 10 points
    Jim Kelly - 13 points
    Dan Marino - 9 points
    Joe Namath - 10 points
    Roger Staubach - 9 points
    Fran Tarkenton - 21 points
    Bob Griese - 7 points

    Again, like I said I didn't think you did enough research. These are the modern era HOF QB's and just in my slight searching I found these, easily. The worst part here even, is that most of these guys ratings weren't near Peytons in the regular season, so they didn't even have as far to fall potentially.

    And I only searched 13 Hall of Fame QB's numbers to come up with this list. That's 9 out of 13 who were on par with Peyton.

    The others I searched were Aikman, Blanda, Bradshaw, and Starr. 3 of these guys regular season ratings were almost 80 on the spot, except Bradshaw who had a 70 passer rating in his career. How far can these guys concievably fall? Is it truly fair to compare guys who have career passer ratings in the 80 range to one at 95? Moon and Elway fall in this category as well. 80 career passer ratings guys who played at that same level in the playoffs. Even Mr. Clutch in the playoffs Tom Brady loses 5 points on his passer rating in the playoffs.

    Again, you didn't do enough research and as easy as you say that site made it, you still didn't do it. I've ALWAYS believed Peyton was the norm more than a 'choker' than anyone wanted to talk about, but you just finally gave me the proof I needed to make that point. Thank you. Even including the guys that you searched out, Moon, Montana, Elway, and Brady .... guys on par with Peyton are 9 out of the 17 guys we have looked up between the two of us.

    While the 8 'exceptions' were mostly guys who had passer ratings 15 points below Peytons in the regular season. So it looks bad even though Peytons passer rating in the playoffs is still better than almost all of them. Of the 8 'exceptions' not like Peyton, off the top of my head the only ones who were near his regular season rating were Montana, and Brady. And I'm not shocked that they perform above Peyton the playoffs, honestly. But as far as passer rating goes, that makes 6 out of the 8 who were still not doing as well as Peyton in the playoffs. That's off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on that.

    Looks to me like Peyton is far from the exception on this, and much more the norm. It really goes to prove my belief that in the playoffs it's less about QB play and more about the rest of the team. I think it shows that most good to great QB's will hover around the 80-85 rating in the playoffs no matter how good they are. I can't wait until I have more time to research this some more, honestly.

    I nitpicked from this list guys who were more recent, or had bigger names, but here is where I got the 'Modern ERA list' from to begin with.

    http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/positions.html

    My next post on this matter will probably be long winded and drawn out as I really dig into this.

    -- Steve --
    Last edited by Pacersfan46; 01-11-2009 at 12:39 PM.

  25. #50

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    If your point is that Peyton is like most Hall of Fame quarterbacks, I agree completely with that and have stated so many times. Well, I'd put Peyton above most of the guys you mentioned, actually. Again, I'm not claiming he is some Jeff George or Gary Hogeboom. His postseasons do help define where to slot him among the top dozen or so quarterbacks of all time.

    There are a select few among the greatest of the great who do not slide far below the high level of their regular season performances. Montana was one of them. Peyton is not (yet, and it would take a lot to make up for where he is now). Brady might be.

    To borrow from your post, I've ALWAYS believed Peyton was far above the norm and in fact a Hall of Fame quarterback, merely a half step below the very best of the best, and your post, supporting my position, nicely makes that point.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-11-2009 at 04:54 PM.

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