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Thread: Peyton Manning

  1. #1
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Peyton Manning

    Is the most overrated player in the NFL. Nowhere near as clutch as Tom Brady. It is nice to throw for 4,000 yards a season. It is nice to have 12 victories a season. It is common to continually lose your first game in the playoffs.

    He has a losing record in the playoffs. 7-8. He only has one game winning drive in 15 playoff games. The year we won the super bowl the defense got the job done.

    He pads his stats by doing dink and dunk passes on first down and not establishing the run game.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    It's hard to get too worked up over the argument Manning pads his stats versus the 'greatness of Tom Brady' arguments when the NFL might not have seen a greater padding of the stats than what Brady did last year.

    If Karma is truly a bi+ch, then last season is why Brady is in rehab this season....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I wouldn't say Peyton wasn't clutch this season. How many wins did he lead the Colts to almost by himself? With no virtually no running game to help him out and a defense that was shaky at best, I'd say clutch describes him pretty well. Who else would you hold majorly responsible for those 9 straight wins?

    Granted, in the past Peyton has been less than stellar in the playoffs. But I don't think you can say he wasn't clutch in the past playoff game. He played well considering how often he started behind the 10 yard line and that running game wasn't giving him any flexibility on offense. But to point the finger only at Manning for the Colts' playoff failures is ludicrous.

    With the exception of the Super Bowl run in the playoffs, Peyton has never had much of a reliable defense to back him up. And the coaching hasn't been the greatest at times either.

    Contrast that with what Tom Brady has had. He's always had a great defense to back him up. And (despite the cheating allegations) he's always had arguably the best coach in the NFL on the sidelines. Peyton may have had Marvin and Reggie for longer periods, but it's not like Brady hasn't had great receivers either. Randy Moss, Deion Branch, and hell, even Wes Welker aren't exactly chopped liver.

    Matt Cassel --a player who was pulled from several of the Patriots' blowouts last season because Belicheck didn't trust him to handle large leads-- was put in Brady's place this season and they still managed an 11-5 record and almost made the playoffs. If that isn't an indication of the strength of Brady's supporting cast and coaching staff, I'm not sure what is.

    If you put Jim Sorgi or even Matt Cassel in Peyton's place this season (or even any season from the past few years), the Colts miss the playoffs by a wide margin every year.
    Last edited by Aw Heck; 01-05-2009 at 01:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    The year we won the super bowl the defense got the job done.

    He pads his stats by doing dink and dunk passes on first down and not establishing the run game.
    You mean to tell me that winning teams play on both sides of the ball? Wow, what a novel concept. When was the last time Peyton allowed a rushing TD? When was the last time he got beat long? When was the last time he tried shoulder tackling, instead of wrapping up?

    What I find even funnier than a post like this, is the argument about how Peyton has always been a choker because he only beat Florida once in college. But when you present them the fact that Tenn averaged like 41pts against Florida, with his yardage totals well over 300, the argument always goes back to, "well a loss is still a loss."

    That is a very true argument, but you can't blame horrible defense on a quarterback. Just like you can't blame horrible offense on a safety. No one has called the Ravens defense over the past few years overrated, even though that was Ed Reed's first career playoff win.



    As far as that second part. The Colts haven't been able to run the ball all season. Why call a running play on every 1st down just to see a no gain? Atleast those dink and dunk passes picks up 4 or 5 yards.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Its not that Manning is overrated, because he's very, very good. But the idea that a franchise QB will win playoff games to even get to the Super Bowl without a consistent running game or a decent defense is vastly overrated. What is overrated is the way you've built around Manning and put all your eggs into the high-powered passing game offense - you need to free up salary space to compliment him with a line that can block for the running game and defense, not a roster full of all-world receivers and TEs.

    In a playoff matchup, I'd rather have Tennessee's run game and defense with a "manage the game QB", or Baltimore's run game and defense with a "manage the game QB". Even looking at my beloved Steelers, with a substandard running game this year I worry about whether they could beat either of those two teams if they get past SD. That is playoff football.

    Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs with one Super Bowl loss, with the same problem. Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until he had help from... let's see... NFL MVP and offensive player of the year Terrell Davis and reasonably stingy defense. Its frankly amazing to see the number of seasons that Elway's Broncos missed the playoffs between the Super Bowl losses of the mid-80s and when they finally won them in the late nineties. Favre at least got *some* help from Levens (before the Madden curse) and a defense that featured Reggie White to get a 12-10 playoff record.

    Perhaps the expectations of what a future-HoF QB with a substandard supporting cast can do in the playoffs need to be adjusted?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    As I said in the other thread, when you've got 3rd and two in the shadow of your own end zone, and your "best" play call has an empty backfield, that is a huge problem. Once there wasn't even a threat of a running play, any reasonable observer knew the blitz was coming and a little bit of "within the five yards" bump coverage would seal the sack.

    That's not Manning's fault. That's on the front office or perhaps the coaching staff could have done a better job disguising the lack of confidence in the running game.

    If you're telling me that Manning was responsible for that formation, then I'll go back to what I said after the '05 playoffs - Manning is a great QB but he's a lousy offensive coordinator.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Perhaps the expectations of what a future-HoF QB with a substandard supporting cast can do in the playoffs need to be adjusted?
    Not for me it doesn't. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I just can't believe the Colts have went this long without truly addressing those things.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I want to know where the hell Addie went this season. Yeah he was injured but I'm still shocked he disappeared like he did.

    No, I don't believe Manning is overrated. Just look at what he did this season. The injury, the TERRIBLE start, the late game drives. He does all he personally can, the supporting cast is what hurts us. Every huge hole in the D kills us. Special teams kill us. Honestly, without Manning we are well under .500 if not battling the Lions for the first pick in this years draft.

    The post-seasons do suck... A LOT. If someone out there thinks they were the only one throwing pillows at the T.V. and yelling so loud the neighbors could hear, you're wrong. Thus is the Colts fans' way of life in late December.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Not for me it doesn't. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I just can't believe the Colts have went this long without truly addressing those things.

    -Bball
    But that's the root issue. They've been far more obsessed with "getting the franchise QB" than "winning" ever since Elway got away.

    Why else do you trade Chris Hinton, Andre Rison, and Chris Chandler just for the right to draft Jeff George? Dickerson, being supported by Hinton, Rison and Chandler was a reasonably good - and balanced - offensive combination.

    Now that they've got that franchise QB, they don't know what exactly to do with him. He's too good to not have some success, which is what you are seeing. Marino took unknowns like Duper and Clayton and made them household names. Why invest so much in WRs? Manning can make an average WR/TE look like a star.

    Something similar was said about Kurt Warner the other night (on NFL network, I think.) He really likes to throw 40-45+ times per game. But he's much better when he's limited to 25-32 throws per game in a balanced offense.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    But that's the root issue. They've been far more obsessed with "getting the franchise QB" than "winning" ever since Elway got away.

    Why else do you trade Chris Hinton, Andre Rison, and Chris Chandler just for the right to draft Jeff George? Dickerson, being supported by Hinton, Rison and Chandler was a reasonably good - and balanced - offensive combination.

    Now that they've got that franchise QB, they don't know what exactly to do with him. He's too good to not have some success, which is what you are seeing. Marino took unknowns like Duper and Clayton and made them household names. Why invest so much in WRs? Manning can make an average WR/TE look like a star.

    Something similar was said about Kurt Warner the other night (on NFL network, I think.) He really likes to throw 40-45+ times per game. But he's much better when he's limited to 25-32 throws per game in a balanced offense.
    I'm still agreeing EXCEPT.... there is no argument, they now have that franchise QB. So WHY don't they know what to do with him... especially at this point?

    Surely that in and of itself cannot be the problem. Or are you saying it runs deeper and Manning is making demands that ties the franchise's hands? But cannot Manning see what needs to happen?

    I totally agree about them pi$$ing away a pretty good start on a team to get Jeff George and that set the franchise back.

    To quote Dennis Miller on Jeff George "He sure throws a pretty interception"
    -Bball
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    They are like the dog chasing the car in the cartoon. Once it caught the car, it had no idea what to do next.

    But does it matter? Either way, they are catering to an unbalanced team - whether it is because of Manning's "request" or thier blue print (or lack thereof.)

    There is not really a proven route to postseason success *with* a franchise QB. Certainly not in the salary cap era where investing too much money into a single position or aspect of the game can be a major problem. The difference between Favre and Manning is that Favre also lost a Super Bowl. But I don't think anybody in Cheeseland ever blamed Favre for a postseason failure, did they?

    You'll know with certainty that it isn't coming from Manning when he's willing to restructure his contract and take less pay so that the team can get some free agent help on the defensive side of the ball. I don't follow them closely enough to know whether that has ever happened or not...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    The defense played well enough to win the game. Tim Jennings forced a turnover. I follow the Colts and the play calling process is this Moore gives Manning three plays he can run from the line of scrimmage 2 Passes & 1 run play. Manning choosed what play to run depending on the defensive coverage. I just do not understand why D Rhodes was not getting carries. I do not understand if we drafted all these offensive lineman last draft why they are not better run blockers. Is Polian to blame?

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Some OLs are better straight-ahead run blockers, others are better at pass protection, some can do it all. But even in Pittsburgh we're playing a RT that can't do anything but commit holding penalties.

    My impression is that Pollian focuses on big guys to protect the QB, not strong guys to push forward and create holes for the running game. Where is your full-back and your blocking tight end? They weren't on the field. If Moore sent in three plays, there were all passes - it was an empty backfield. Unless you're telling me the running play was a QB draw. (Although that would have been a helluva suprise to the Chargers defense... )

    I would strongly disagree with the notion that your defense played well enough to win the game. During the second half in particular, the Chargers moved the ball with ease, but ended two drives in the endzone with turnovers that kept the final score from becoming 28-17 SD, in regulation. The takeaways helped with the score, but it was clear that the Charges offense could do whatever it wanted if they protected the ball better. I don't know why Rivers spiked the ball on first down in the last minute - they had plenty of time and one additional shot at the end zone might have also prevented the need to play the overtime period.

    When Bettis said on the post-game show, "the better team won", he was referring to the more complete team in terms of a running and passing offense, running and passing defense, and special teams play. Outside of passing offense and turnovers, the Chargers won every other category.

    Far be it for me to defend the guy (Manning), but he really did not have any help on Saturday night or all season long.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I'm fairly certain the Farve years at Green Bay had many more wins in their first round of the playoffs than losses.

    To me, this isn't about SB's... it's about a dismal playoff record as the norm.

    Besides the two SB's Farve made it to, he was in the NFC championship game as recent as last year. And he was there in 96 losing to the Cowboys. So in roughly the same amount of time Farve's teams fared much better in the playoffs than the Colts have. True, both only have 1 SB trophy to show for it but I'd feel much better with a playoff record like GB's versus the dismal record Indy has put up all things considered.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I think he was 12-10 overall, so slightly above 0.500.

    And you have to put some type of footnote next to Elway's postseason record because they missed the playoffs in 88, 90, 92, 94 and 95. Favre, Marino and Manning were at least getting into the first round of the playoffs consistently, even if they were losing.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #16

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I don't think Manning is overrated, I would agree with Jay about the need to build a team on a more diverse foundation than a glitzy high-powered passing attack. This falls on Polian for personnel decisions in my opinion.

    Having said that, the Colts play the regular season with the same group of players and the same strengths and weaknesses, and have a lot more success in those regular season games even if you just limit the analysis to regular season games against playoff opponents. What's the difference? There's no denying that Manning is less efficient in the playoffs. Most QBS are, Montana being the big exception since his numbers went way UP in the playoffs, and Brady being a smaller exception since he at least has maintained or slightly raised production on average.

    What doesn't seem to work well in January is a defensive philosophy of putting all your eggs in the "sack the QB and hope for a turnover" principle. You need to win the lines of scrimmage and not hope that all your losses in the trenches are negated by a big play. To do that you need to balance your roster payout among quality linemen and maybe let a few high priced offensive or defensive "skill players" walk away.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-05-2009 at 04:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I would strongly disagree with the notion that your defense played well enough to win the game. During the second half in particular, the Chargers moved the ball with ease, but ended two drives in the endzone with turnovers that kept the final score from becoming 28-17 SD, in regulation. The takeaways helped with the score, but it was clear that the Charges offense could do whatever it wanted if they protected the ball better. I don't know why Rivers spiked the ball on first down in the last minute - they had plenty of time and one additional shot at the end zone might have also prevented the need to play the overtime period.
    The D wasn't great, but they gave the offense a chance to win the game. If the Colts can convert that 3rd and 2, then the game is all but over with the Defense allowing just 14 points.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I think he was 12-10 overall, so slightly above 0.500.

    And you have to put some type of footnote next to Elway's postseason record because they missed the playoffs in 88, 90, 92, 94 and 95. Favre, Marino and Manning were at least getting into the first round of the playoffs consistently, even if they were losing.
    If I am reading the records correctly, Favre didn't lose in the first playoff game until 1999. The GB playoff experience was a steady ascension to the SB in '98.

    Then in 99 GB and Favre were knocked out on the first playoff game (27-30).

    They next appeared in the playoffs in 02 and won the wildcard game. 03 they lost.... 04 they won... 05 they lost... 08 they won.

    So if there's any lesson there at all, late in Favre's career the playoff failures (and misses entirely) became more common place. The first part of his career didn't have a opening game playoff loss until '99 AFTER their SB title... and they made the playoffs each of those years until 2000.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Favre is the most overrated player in the NFL, to change the 1st sentence of the first post in this thread.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    Favre is the most overrated player in the NFL, to change the 1st sentence of the first post in this thread.
    I disagree. Farve gets all the attention via ESPN but the fact he was not even traded for a first round pick speaks volumes about his value around the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    The D wasn't great, but they gave the offense a chance to win the game. If the Colts can convert that 3rd and 2, then the game is all but over with the Defense allowing just 14 points.
    The Colts kicked off the ball and got the first score of the game.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    I disagree. Farve gets all the attention via ESPN but the fact he was not even traded for a first round pick speaks volumes about his value around the league.
    He's my age and "retired" last offseason. Of course he didn't get a first round pick.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Not for me it doesn't. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I just can't believe the Colts have went this long without truly addressing those things.

    -Bball
    Amen!

    More than anything, the defensive scheme needs some serious tweaking and we need an upgrade at each of the LB spots. Every playoff game I can think of that the Colts have lost since Peyton has been with them has been lost mainly because we couldn't stop the run. This game looked eerily similar to the Miami OT loss in the WildCard game of 2002 or maybe it was 03. Darin Sproles was this year's Lamont Jordan!

    You can't compare the Colts to the Patriots in that the Pats defense has been superior to our defense for years and although their defense this season wasn't quite as potent they still don't give up over 120 rushing yards per game.

    Peyton's career isn't too much different than Dan Marino's other than Peyton actually won a Super Bowl. Dan had to try to get it done most years without a running game and sometimes with a porous defense.

    With all that said, I lay the blame for this loss on the Defense and penalties. They played okay through the first 57 minutes, even had some huge takeaways in the red zone, but then just sort of fell apart at the end. I don't think I've ever seen so many penalties from a Colts team in such a short period of time.

    The Chargers special teams deserve major props too. They kept pinning the Colts inside their own 10. How many times did that happen? Four? Has a team ever had four punts fielded inside the 10 in a playoff game? He averaged 53 yards per punt! That's amazing! I sure hope they gave that punter a game ball.

    Peyton wasn't perfect and he missed some throws early that could've lead to a TD instead of that FG... and that sack in the fourth on their own 1 was brutal but the burden of the blame goes to the defense and the Colts special teams.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    I don't blame Polian too much for the run game going to hell this past season. I'll blame him if he doesn't do anything to fix it though.

    It's not his fault Addai regresses as time goes on. I think I'm going to call Addai "Benjamin Button" from now on. He started out his career as a hell of a running back and made a pro bowl early on, but he got worse in his 3rd season when he should have got better (like practically every other player). His growth has been the opposite of most every other player.

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    Default Re: Peyton Manning

    If your running game is struggling, it is probably not the RBs fault.

    It takes seven different guys to fix the running game: LT, LG, C, RG, RT, TE, and FB. If they create holes, even a guy like Willie Parker can have 1,000+ yard seasons, and he couldn't even get on the field in college.

    Your starter is probably neither the problem nor the solution. He's probably neutral. The other guy didn't really have much success running the ball, either.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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