View Poll Results: Who do you like better? JOb or Rick?

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  • Jim O'Brien

    23 39.66%
  • Rick Carlisle

    35 60.34%
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Thread: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

  1. #476

    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by oxxo View Post
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    Of course every fanbase complains about their coach, but no other lottery/.500 team insists on playing their mediocre vets over their lottery picks just because the coach is insane... or that coach was fired long ago.

    Let's just exclude contenders and include any team that is lottery/around .500/candidate to a playoff run.


    Atlanta

    It's funny, I just read this awhile ago. I think you'll find it amusing, as I did:

    Michael Cunningham of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

    As an organization the Hawks talked all summer about the importance of Jeff Teague becoming a major contributor. Then he got hurt in training camp and fell behind. It seems heís been playing catch-up ever since and hasnít always been afforded the opportunity to work his way through rough stretches or rewarded for his good performances. Certainly Larry Drew has given Teague more opportunities than his predecessor on the bench. But I think a fair interpretation of events is that, despite Drewís stated desire to mold the Hawks into a defensive team and develop his young players, his decisions in this matter reflect a different tact. (Shoot, it makes me wonder how willing heíd be to stick with the promising 'big' lineup if Jason Collins were a young guy. Would it just mean more Etan Thomas?) Since Drew's actions with Teague donít always match his words, I can only conclude that he is reluctant to reduce minutes for his two veteran 'shotmakers' with defensive deficiencies for the sake of finding more playing time for his most physically-gifted perimeter defender.
    It's amazing how similar it is to the claims about O'Brien not developing young players and using veterans ahead of them and how he says one thing and does the opposite, isn't it?

    Anyway, forget Teague. First round pick Jordan Crawford has played 100 minutes this season. They're playing Mo Evans and... Damien Wilkins (!!!) ahead of him. When Joe Johnson was injured, Wilkins actually played big minutes in a couple of games. They actually signed Wilkins for that purpose. And it doesn't get much crappier than Damien Wilkins. THe other rookie, Pape Sy? He's yet to see a single second of NBA action.

    -----------------

    New York Knicks

    D'Antoni's dislike for young players is well documented. So even though they don't have many veterans, it's no surprise that journeyman Ronny Turiaf has beaten high potential prospects like Mozgov and Randolph for playing time, that Shawne Williams is playing ahead of Bill Walker and that Roger Mason has got more minutes than Andy Rautins.


    Milwaukee Bucks

    They don't really have any young players because they just get rid of them in the first place. They cut Tiny Gallon and already during the season waived rookie Darington Hobson to sign.. Brian Skinner. Larry Sanders played 330 minutes so far thanks to the injuries, but he was out of the rotation when the squad was healthy. Expect him to go back to the bench/inactive list once they're in full force again.

    Philadelphia 76ers

    2nd overall pick Turner is on the bench. Andres Nocioni plays more than Speights. They're starting Elton Brand and playing him heavy minutes. To open minutes to Nocioni and Tony Battie, they sent Craig Brackins to the D-League.

    Toronto Raptors

    This one is easy: Reggie Evans - starter; Ed Davis, lottery pick - D-League. They were playing David Andersen over Julian Wright too. Ah, and over Solomon Alabi, D-League for him too.


    Charlotte Bobcats

    Larry Brown rarely plays rookies, no surprise we haven't heard much about Sherron Collins - he's playing in the D-League too. Veteran Dominic McGuire got the nod over 2nd year Gerald Henderson.

    Detroit Pistons

    Monroe was nailed to the bench in favour of Charles Villanueva, Ben Wallace and Jason Maxiell. DaJuan Summers collects DNPs and plays garbage minutes. Tracy McGrady averaged almost 20 mpg in December. Hamilton and Prince keep getting big minutes. 36 years old Ben Wallace has now played the double of the minutes that the 15th overall pick Austin Daye got (729 vs. 336). I watched their last game: even Chris Wilcox played more than Daye or Monroe.

    New Jersey Nets

    Quinton Ross over Terrence Williams is very explanatory. Kris Humphries starts over Larry Summers. The other rookie, Ben Uzoh, has played 80 minutes. Even Sasha Vujacic, who arrived like one week ago, has already played more.

    Cleveland Cavaliers

    A team filled with veterans and some well in their 30s - Jamison, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Anderson Varej„o.

    First round pick Christian Eyenga? Hasn't even played a single minute! He's in the D-League. Manny Harris? 105 minutes played, all in garbage time. Samardo Samuels? D-League.

    Washington Wizards

    First round pick Kevin Seraphin has played 120 minutes, mostly of garbage time. Fellow rookie Hamady Ndyaye played 4 minutes. Even the relatively young Alonzo Gee was barely used - 127 minutes and then cut. Who's playing more than these guys? Hilton Armstrong. Trevor Booker got some burn early on, but now he's sitting down to open minutes to Josh Howard (a 30 years old in a 1 year contract), Rashard Lewis and Al Thornton.

    ........

    I'll do the Western Conference later on... but don't expect to see different things.

    Actually, I'm pretty sure I did this exercise last season too. Does anyone know if that post can be found? (actually the first time I did it was in another board and was about... Doc Rivers. Most Celtics fans were irked with Doc because he wasn't playing Rondo enough and didn't like rookies, etc).

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  3. #477
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    There are many, many players that fans know are better than the alternative on the floor, but the alternative plays anyway. There are reasons for this and they have nothing to do with basketball and a lot to do with money or what the team has decided is the "big picture".

    So many people seem completely oblivious to the business aspects of the NBA, the pecking order in the locker room in terms of salary, the relationship issues. The NBA is not exactly like the business world, but this is not the pure days of 1965 Indiana high school basketball folks.

  4. #478
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Not that I disagree with you, but how do you know this? It couldn't be from watching his development from the court, so are you privy to the practice sessions?
    I assume you watched his deer in headlights routine when he played earlier this season. All the evidence I need. If you like to replace "leaps and bounds", I won't argue too much. Plus, those guys he listed are pretty established guys.

  5. #479

    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    I love how we picked up JOB's option last season.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoddage View Post
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    I love how we picked up JOB's option last season.
    I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.

  7. #481
    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronb View Post
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    I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.
    Is this supposed to be green font? I don't care if John Wooden was coaching this team, there isn't 60 wins in any combination of the players on this roster. I doubt if there's even 50 wins there.

  8. #482
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Is this supposed to be green font? I don't care if John Wooden was coaching this team, there isn't 60 wins in any combination of the players on this roster. I doubt if there's even 50 wins there.
    Green font

  9. #483

    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    Let's just exclude contenders and include any team that is lottery/around .500/candidate to a playoff run.


    Actually, I'm pretty sure I did this exercise last season too. Does anyone know if that post can be found? (actually the first time I did it was in another board and was about... Doc Rivers. Most Celtics fans were irked with Doc because he wasn't playing Rondo enough and didn't like rookies, etc).
    Of course every team plays some vets over rookies. That's a given. We aren't playing our LOTTERY guys or guys that have shown potential (Price) and instead give garbage time to the vets and play Posey out of position at the 4.

    None of the teams listed are comparable to what we are seeing from JOB.

    ---

    Rondo had 25 starts and played ~24 minutes a game as a rookie.

    Milwaukee Bucks - Played Jennings, Bogut, Mbah a Moute, and even Joe Alexander plenty of minutes in their 1st/2nd year.

    Philadelphia 76ers - Turner is getting 24 minutes a game...

    Toronto Raptors - Ed Davis is playing now. Reggie Evans had one of the, if not the highest, rebounding rates in the league. Bargani had 25 and 23 minutes a game his first two years, even though back then people were questioning whether or not he was a bust.

    Charlotte Bobcats - Agreed. LB is gone now though, and young guys *seem* to be getting the PT now.

    Detroit Pistons - Charlie V and Maxiell are neither old nor worse than our youngs. Hamilton and Prince, while they've dropped off, are nothing like playing Posey or Dun like we do. I do agree that they're being pretty stupid not playing their young guys more... since they're obviously far from contending.

    New Jersey Nets - Terrence Williams had maturity issues and problems with the coach. Not sure who Larry Summers is... I've never heard of him and I can't find him anywhere. Ben Uzoh was undrafted and on a partially guaranteed contract...

    Cleveland Cavaliers - Christian Eyenga is one of those overseas project guys like Lorbek. Manny Harris was signed as an undrafted rookie. Samardo Samuels is another undrafted guy on a partially guaranteed contract.

    Washington Wizards - Kevin Seraphin is behind a 24 year old (Blatche) who has shown plenty of potential and shared garbage minutes with Yi and Booker, who are both young. Hamady Ndyaye is a 2nd round 'potential' pick and is behind 22 and 26 year old. Alonzo Gee was undrafted. The others are behind vets yes, but it's the young guys who get the PT and the starts. No one (including myself) said ONLY young guys should get PT, esp 2nd rounders and undrafted guys.
    Last edited by oxxo; 12-31-2010 at 12:20 AM.

  10. #484
    Gold Stagger Hoop's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronb View Post
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    I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.

    Holy cow, JOB is worse than I thought, and that's really saying something.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronb View Post
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    I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.
    can i get what ur smoking must be some good ****

  12. #486
    I have a Member xBulletproof's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    can i get what ur smoking must be some good ****
    He's being sarcastic, because he thinks that's how most people feel here.

  13. #487
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread




    Last edited by BringJackBack; 01-02-2011 at 04:16 PM.

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  15. #488
    Release Psycho T pwee31's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread


  16. #489
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    FIRE OBRIEN!! GOD, AT THIS POINT, I'D RATHER HAVE THOMAS BACK AS COACH..
    Passion, Pride, Playoffs, Pacers

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    I'm officially offering my services as an interim head coach for the Pacers.

    Under my proposed system, the "stretch" 4 would be GONE, the team would be coached towards attacking the basket instead of Jack-up-a-3. Our younger players would receive more playing time immediately. Posey and Foster would be used more for mentors than nightly contributors.

    I have no coaching experience, and my last basketball experience was doing color commentary for the Ben Davis Giants basketball team 5 years ago. I still think I can do better than the idiot we have now.

    Best of all, I'll work for the league minimum. Let's make this happen:

    SANDMAN (or Vogel) FOR COACH TODAY!

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  19. #491
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Holy freaking ****, fire his worthless @ss, I can't take it anymore. FU JOB, Just FU!

    I'll take Isiah, with Dick Versace and George Irving as his assistants at this point. Sadly I'm not even kidding.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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  21. #492
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There are many, many players that fans know are better than the alternative on the floor, but the alternative plays anyway. There are reasons for this and they have nothing to do with basketball and a lot to do with money or what the team has decided is the "big picture".

    So many people seem completely oblivious to the business aspects of the NBA, the pecking order in the locker room in terms of salary, the relationship issues. The NBA is not exactly like the business world, but this is not the pure days of 1965 Indiana high school basketball folks.
    The problem with that is that it is illogical, especially when many of those more expensive players are in the final year of their contract. Just because a player makes $5 million more doesn't mean they should play. No matter if they play or not they are still going to make that money, so why play them? Why not play the better player? When someone plays because of money it has nothing to do with business and everything to do with ego, and not willing to admit to making a mistake. It is one thing to say these guys are our future they need to be playing, that is business, and smart business. Playing a guy because he makes more has nothing to do with business. The only excuse for that is to hope that he can be traded, which can be done with limited time.

  22. #493
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The problem with that is that it is illogical, especially when many of those more expensive players are in the final year of their contract.
    A player in the final year of a contract is a player motivated to play well for their next deal. This is not the reason they are played, but it doesn't hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Just because a player makes $5 million more doesn't mean they should play. No matter if they play or not they are still going to make that money, so why play them? Why not play the better player?
    This is the part a lot of people don't get. Especially young people with limited experience in the business world. Here is how it works:

    In the NBA if you have a rookie and a vet who bring basically the same thing to the game, the coach is motivated to play the vet for several reasons:

    1) If the vet sits, the owner has less room to negotiate a trade. It may not change the perceived value in the market, but it can change the negotiating positions of the parties anyway. One man's junk is another man's treasure. If you treat it like junk, it is less likely you can claim it's valuable. Thus, you hurt your negotiating position.

    2) If the rookie plays well, it will be more difficult and costly to re-sign him. It may also make the vet look worse at the negotiating table. Sometimes it's a matter of timing with contracts. Millions of dollars are at stake and more is going on here than pure basketball decisions. It's complicated and I don't think anyone here is privy to the details.

    3) The boss forked out millions on the vet. If the coach sticks his neck out and sits the vet and the rookie performs poorly, the coach is entirely to blame. If he plays the vet, he takes less heat. It's an easy decision by a risk averse coach. ...especially one who has been fired before like Jim O'Brien.

    4) This is rare, but I think happens. If the rookie plays well, there are some instances where it might make the owner look foolish for investing so much in the vet. This is not the case with our players, but I do think this is a factor at times.

    5) There is a pecking order in the locker room just as in any business. Sometimes it's experience level...sometimes relational/friendships...sometimes financial....sometimes it's a matter of respect for elders. Many times, the young dog is the smarter one but does not lead the pack because doing so would show a lack of respect for the old dog. The chemistry in the locker room is most definitely affected in different ways when rookies start taking the jobs of older players. Many older players don't think they are as done as they are (See JO). One guy with a huge contract has the argument that he's better simply because his contract is bigger. That argument will win the day at times. If a rookie is quiet (like AJ Price) and the vet is an extrovert, the coach may be careful or he will poison the stew.

    Coaching is as much about psychology as it is X's and O's...

  23. #494
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    This is the part a lot of people don't get. Especially young people with limited experience in the business world. Here is how it works:

    In the NBA if you have a rookie and a vet who bring basically the same thing to the game, the coach is motivated to play the vet for several reasons:

    1) If the vet sits, the owner has less room to negotiate a trade. It may not change the perceived value in the market, but it can change the negotiating positions of the parties anyway. One man's junk is another man's treasure. If you treat it like junk, it is less likely you can claim it's valuable. Thus, you hurt your negotiating position.

    2) If the rookie plays well, it will be more difficult and costly to re-sign him. It may also make the vet look worse at the negotiating table. Sometimes it's a matter of timing with contracts. Millions of dollars are at stake and more is going on here than pure basketball decisions. It's complicated and I don't think anyone here is privy to the details.

    3) The boss forked out millions on the vet. If the coach sticks his neck out and sits the vet and the rookie performs poorly, the coach is entirely to blame. If he plays the vet, he takes less heat. It's an easy decision by a risk averse coach. ...especially one who has been fired before like Jim O'Brien.

    4) This is rare, but I think happens. If the rookie plays well, there are some instances where it might make the owner look foolish for investing so much in the vet. This is not the case with our players, but I do think this is a factor at times.

    5) There is a pecking order in the locker room just as in any business. Sometimes it's experience level...sometimes relational/friendships...sometimes financial....sometimes it's a matter of respect for elders. Many times, the young dog is the smarter one but does not lead the pack because doing so would show a lack of respect for the old dog. The chemistry in the locker room is most definitely affected in different ways when rookies start taking the jobs of older players. Many older players don't think they are as done as they are (See JO). One guy with a huge contract has the argument that he's better simply because his contract is bigger. That argument will win the day at times. If a rookie is quiet (like AJ Price) and the vet is an extrovert, the coach may be careful or he will poison the stew.

    Coaching is as much about psychology as it is X's and O's...
    Don't underestimate me just because I'm young. As well just because someone has more experience doesn't mean they know better. Conventional wisdom may not always be right, it is only the best thing people were able to come up with at the time for those times. I will admit there are some times win playing the vet is better for business, but the Pacers aren't in that situation.

    I know why a coach is motivated to play the vets over the young guys my argument isn't that there isn't motivation, my argument is that the motivation is often times stupid.

    1) I understand this point of view, but this can be accomplished without complete disregard to the younger players like it has been seen on the Pacers.

    2) If the young player is better than the vet and will help to bring more wins to the team, most likely the team will benefit far more monetarily in the long run from the players success than they will by playing the vet. I won't argue with playing the vet more if the vet and young player are similar in skill or the vet is better. I have a problem when the young player is obviously better like we have constantly seen with the Pacers the past 2 seasons.

    3) This comes back to ego of those in power. As well this comes with recognizing that young players, especially rookies need to be handled with a delicate hand. The coach shouldn't just blinding give the young player minutes. The coach needs to play him more when he is playing well, and less when he isn't.

    4) In fact I believe that is exactly the case. McRoberts made the investment in Murphy look foolish almost every time he stepped on the floor over the past 3 seasons. Price made the decision to play Ford over him this year look foolish by how he played last year and in pre-season.

    5) A locker room hierarchy should not always be the same as the on floor hierarchy. In fact I would argue that 90% of the time it should in no way correlate to the floor. I understand that player management is just as important for a coach as the X's and O's, but if it is costing you wins at a certain point you have to put in his place. If he can't accept it you shouldn't want him on your team anyways. Typically the best vets aren't the Allen Iversons of the world, but the those who are willing to accept they only have a bigger contract because at the time they signed it they were better and/or more proven than the young player and they are willing to accept a lesser role.


    I wouldn't have half the problem with playing vets over young guys on this team if the vets were actually better than the younger players. That is why I don't mind Dunleavy playing over George. At the same time though I recognize that George can potentially be 20 times better than Dunleavy today when the stars align, and when that happens he needs to play. The problem is he hasn't been given that chance after Rush's suspension was over.

    Honestly I would say this team did a better job tanking by playing the veterans than they would have playing the young guys. So maybe it is better to play the vets.

  24. #495
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  26. #496
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    OK guys let's close this thread for good, good job to all those guys that made this possible

  27. #497

    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    mission accomplished

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