View Poll Results: Who do you like better? JOb or Rick?

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  • Jim O'Brien

    23 39.66%
  • Rick Carlisle

    35 60.34%
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Thread: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

  1. #26
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    IAlso, I apologize if my expectations of this team are higher than 11 games under .500. I must be drinking too much of that sunshiner kool-aid. I just wonder, because I went back to the preseason prediction threads and saw that everybody predicted 29 or more wins - and the vast majority over 35 wins, why so many people claim to have expected us to be so bad. I mean, I know we lost Dunleavy, but who thinks this team is anything but underacheiving right now?
    Where's that thread? Pretty sure the "29" is mine, and it was caveated that as Rush and Hibbert worked through their learning curves, as I said several times this summer that we would win more games in March and April as they developed to get up to 29. Right now we are mathematically on pace to win 26, and need to get more out of those two rookies in February and March than we've gotten in November and December.

    I think they are right on pace, but right now a lot of people are playing "Revisionst history" with their preseason predictions. I was generally chastised around here for my "pessimism" over the summer, but now everyone seems to think that their "realism" aligned with my original view.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    And life itself, rushing over me
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  2. #27

    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I thought O'Brien was known for overacheiving with less talented teams. I mean, Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker to the Eastern Conference Finals...

    Also, I apologize if my expectations of this team are higher than 11 games under .500. I must be drinking too much of that sunshiner kool-aid. I just wonder, because I went back to the preseason prediction threads and saw that everybody predicted 29 or more wins - and the vast majority over 35 wins, why so many people claim to have expected us to be so bad. I mean, I know we lost Dunleavy, but who thinks this team is anything but underacheiving right now?

    Teams have won with less talent and teams have lost with more talent.

    To listen to some they think this team is overachieving with the players on this roster.

    Last year this team won 36 or 37 games with less talent playing. JO was injured numerous games, Tinsley was gone after a certain point in the season, Daniels was playing injured, Diener was the PG, Ike never found his game after he returned from injury, etc. Since last season, the PG spot was addressed with Ford and Jack, Rasho was acquired to allow Foster and Murphy to play their position of PF, and Rush and Hibbert was drafted to fill 2 positions of need, and Daniels is having a great season; and yet this team has only won "11" games with more playing talent.

    Why is that? I really don't need an answer b/c I've read all the excuses from the Sally Sunshiners. Expectations are so low from the Sunshiners that if the Pacers never won another game this season it would be excused away as ok. It's not ok, it's not the way it is b/c........ fill in excuse. This team has beaten the Lakers and Boston once and almost beat Boston a 2nd time. There is enough talent on this team to have a record that is better than what it has and better than what it was last year. If not, then Bird has failed in his job... plain and simple.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Jay,

    The difference is that your view assumed Dunleavy would be playing, hence why it was and continues to be pessimistic.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Jay,

    The difference is that your view assumed Dunleavy would be playing, hence why it was and continues to be pessimistic.
    Actually, I believe Jay and I both predicted that Dun would be playing but would regress, and neither of us expected the contributions Quis has given us. We're getting far more out of our SG spot than I anticipated, regardless of the player.
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSparko View Post
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    Who's available exactly that everyone's dying to have?

    I can't wait to see Eddie Jordan lead this same bunch of players to 50 wins next year.
    Exactly.

    The funny thing is that I wouldn't be surprised if Carlisle got another run once JOB's contract is up.
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  6. #31
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Eventually, Jimmy's scheme will prove unnecessary. It's not really a "Playoff" system. No one wins seven game-series (seres? serieses?) shooting 25 threes a night. But during our franchise's (hopeful) transition back into a legitimate NBA franchise with legitimate NBA talent, his gimmicky system is keeping us competitive. Sure the W/L record doesn't support that, but everyone from CP3 to John Hollinger is continually singing the song that we're much better than our record and that "that's a good team." When it comes to our players, I honestly don't think we're any better than 10-21. But I do think Jim O'Brien and his style is better than that. And it will have some effect on the W/L record before these 82 games are over.
    I agree with the whole thing but with this part especially.
    BillS

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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Actually, I believe Jay and I both predicted that Dun would be playing but would regress, and neither of us expected the contributions Quis has given us. We're getting far more out of our SG spot than I anticipated, regardless of the player.
    I doubt you predicted he would be giving the Pacers 0 mpg.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Jay,

    The difference is that your view assumed Dunleavy would be playing, hence why it was and continues to be pessimistic.
    Didn't we do that at the end of training camp? He was clearly going to be out "for a while" at that point.

    I don't think I'm a pessimist, I just don't like our backcourt, except for Rush, or our frontcourt, except for Granger and Hibbert.



    Lastly, while nobody likes to see a player get injured, I think that many of the predictions every year are inflated because they assume no major, unforseen injury. Even if we could not have predicted that Dunleavy would miss every game so far (except for what, 10 minutes of one preseason game and he still wasn't even practicing when that occurred?), there should be some expectation of occasional injuries to rotation players and even a long-term injury to a rotation player. Everybody has to face that issue.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  9. #34
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Further, while I like Dunleavy, I don't know that his presence contributes to many incremental wins. Marquis Daniels is no Dunleavy, but he's stepped up in a big way to fill most of the gap statistically (as our team PPG and opponent's PPG are both down slightly from last year). How many more games would this team have won with Dunleavy instead of Daniels? A couple? That's still a 29/30 win pace.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #35
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Marquis Daniels is no Dunleavy, but he's stepped up in a big way to fill most of the gap statistically
    "Statistically" isn't our problem. Anyone can put up numbers in this system. It's a wide-open, freelancing, offensive players wet dream.

    It's Dunleavy's presence as a reliable ball-handler and offense initiator that we're missing. I'm not going to put a W/L value on what the absence of his presence has caused because I'd obviously just be making it up...But Daniels is what he is: A finisher. He doesn't make anything happen aside from his own points. I'm not criticizing him for that -- it's a fantastic and much-needed component for this team.

    But the "closer" and "finishing out games" problem is not something that is helped greatly by Marquis Daniels. His main role in this offense is to find holes in the defense and exploit them. Whether that is through his own penetration or his uncanny ability to make subtle cuts that make him seemingly appear out of nowhere in open space in the paint, it's not something that is a reliable late-game weapon. His skills in finding space could be more of a weapon if we had more able ball-handlers who could dribble and make things happen on the perimeter and then find people adeptly and instantaneously when they found that space, but we really don't. TJ really isn't that guy and seems to have trouble creating passing angles. Danny's improved in that area, but certainly more accustomed to making offense for himself than others still -- and is really still in a catch-and-shoot mindset much of the time. Jack is not a traditional PG and can seemingly only go "north/south" to the hoop and not do any "east/west" stuff that makes the defense react and create new attack angles (he's head of steam to the basket or swing pass to the wing, basically).

    Mike, on the other hand, is that guy.

    When he gets the ball on the perimeter, he dribbles side to side. He attacks with two dribbles, then pulls back. He slowly meanders above the top of the key then makes two hard dribbles right and throws a ball reversal back to the top of the key. He dribbles to the elbow, picks up his dribble, pivots twice, then finds a guy cutting baseline.

    In short, he does a boat load of stuff with the ball in his hands that allows -- nay, forces -- offensive player movement and defender reactions. He "changes the chess board" of where everyone is standing.

    No one we have right now playing does any of those things at anywhere nearly the same level. All our offense is perimeter passing and drives/kick-outs. It's predictable and all our ball-handlers are redundant when they try to make something happen -- (1) drive hard at the hoop and either pull up or try to finish at the rim, or (2) get stopped by a second help defender and kick out to the perimeter. No one does the nuanced, stop-and-go, shifty stuff that MDJ does, all of which is stuff that freezes defenders and allows our guys to exploit the space and stagnation that this creates.

    If MDJ was here, our end game lineup would almost certainly be TJ/Dun/Quis/Danny/Murphy (or Foster/Rasho at C). Not only would it force teams to play our little man game late, but it would give us two good ball-handlers in TJ and Dun on the perimeter to make things happen, plus Danny and Quis who could each "make something happen for themselves" when things start breaking down, along with Murph/Granger/Dun always spreading the floor for TJ/Daniels penetration or Daniels to find open space for a nice pass/quick finish from (most likely) Dunleavy.

    That's the reality as I see it. We miss a lot of the stuff that Mike Dunleavy did for our team. He was our "point forward" all last season. You can talk all you want about how "we have more talent cause we had Diener at point and now have TJ and Jack," but, in actuality, we had Dunleavy and Diener running the offense last year and now we just have one of either TJ or Jack, neither of whom seems to really "get it" yet (not to mention the fact that our talent deficient perimeter often forces them to play together with Jack as SG.)

    I'd love to hear what types of plays people think JO'B should be calling in end-game situations when he has TJ/Jack/Quis/Danny/Murph on the floor. Cause, as much as yall want the unproven legend that is Josh McRoberts out there, that's our best lineup. And it's indeed gross. It's mismatched and none of those guys games really complement one another well.

    The way I see it is that this offense is built around Mike Dunleavy being prominent. Him and Daniels are not interchangeable and Daniels inspired play this season does not make what MDJ does expendable. They are two players who do completely different things as basketball players.* (These three sentences are really the only main point of this entire thing. if anyone is still reading.)

    And even though Danny has evolved over the past 30 games to a point that he's undeniably "better" than Mike Dunleavy ever has been or could be, it still doesn't make a person magically appear on our roster who can do the things that Mike Dunleavy did last season. Frankly, we just don't have one.

    So our end game play is the exact same as our mid-2nd Quarter play. We have no "go to" plays. We just play the same way we've been playing all game and hope it works out -- hope someone "makes a play." Danny has shown some ability to lead a pick-and-roll, but not really enough to make it a last play strategy. We've got nothing to go to -- because the only thing we do consistently well is run this offensive system and hope shots go down and drives to the hoop surface. Sometimes it works (Houston, Lakers, Philly) and often it makes us look helpless (pick one).

    But I really think it's the best chance we have to win. Unless you wanna start running TJ/Murphy screen/rolls, go to Rasho in the post or clear out 1-4 low for Danny.

    And sorry this got retardly long.





    * Much like Danny and Pippen, Naptime.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 12-31-2008 at 03:21 PM. Reason: typos
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  11. #36
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I doubt you predicted he would be giving the Pacers 0 mpg.
    I figured Quis would be giving us 0 mpg and Dun would be giving us 30+.
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  12. #37
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I figured Quis would be giving us 0 mpg and Dun would be giving us 30+.
    Knowin JOB, just wait until Mike is healthy. That will be the story...lol

  13. #38
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    "Statistically" isn't our problem. Anyone can put up numbers in this system. It's a wide-open, freelancing, offensive players wet dream.

    It's Dunleavy's presence as a reliable ball-handler and offense initiator that we're missing. I'm not going to put a W/L value on what the absence of his presence has caused because I'd obviously just be making it up...But Daniels is what he is: A finisher. He doesn't make anything happen aside from his own points. I'm not criticizing him for that -- it's a fantastic and much-needed component for this team.

    But the "closer" and "finishing out games" problem is not something that is helped greatly by Marquis Daniels. His main role in this offense is to find holes in the defense and exploit them. Whether that is through his own penetration or his uncanny ability to make subtle cuts that make him seemingly appear out of nowhere in open space in the paint, it's not something that is a reliable late-game weapon. His skills in finding space could be more of a weapon if we had more able ball-handlers who could dribble and make things happen on the perimeter and then find people adeptly and instantaneously when they found that space, but we really don't. TJ really isn't that guy and seems to have trouble creating passing angles. Danny's improved in that area, but certainly more accustomed to making offense for himself than others still -- and is really still in a catch-and-shoot mindset much of the time. Jack is not a traditional PG and can seemingly only go "north/south" to the hoop and not do any "east/west" stuff that makes the defense react and create new attack angles (he's head of steam to the basket or swing pass to the wing, basically).

    Mike, on the other hand, is that guy.

    When he gets the ball on the perimeter, he dribbles side to side. He attacks with two dribbles, then pulls back. He slowly meanders above the top of the key then makes two hard dribbles right and throws a ball reversal back to the top of the key. He dribbles to the elbow, picks up his dribble, pivots twice, then finds a guy cutting baseline.

    In short, he does a boat load of stuff with the ball in his hands that allows -- nay, forces -- offensive player movement and defender reactions. He "changes the chess board" of where everyone is standing.

    No one we have right now playing does any of those things at anywhere nearly the same level. All our offense is perimeter passing and drives/kick-outs. It's predictable and all our ball-handlers are redundant when they try to make something happen -- (1) drive hard at the hoop and either pull up or try to finish at the rim, or (2) get stopped by a second help defender and kick out to the perimeter. No one does the nuanced, stop-and-go, shifty stuff that MDJ does, all of which is stuff that freezes defenders and allows our guys to exploit the space and stagnation that this creates.

    If MDJ was here, our end game lineup would almost certainly be TJ/Dun/Quis/Danny/Murphy (or Foster/Rasho at C). Not only would it force teams to play our little man game late, but it would give us two good ball-handlers in TJ and Dun on the perimeter to make things happen, plus Danny and Quis who could each "make something happen for themselves" when things start breaking down, along with Murph/Granger/Dun always spreading the floor for TJ/Daniels penetration or Daniels to find open space for a nice pass/quick finish from (most likely) Dunleavy.

    That's the reality as I see it. We miss a lot of the stuff that Mike Dunleavy did for our team. He was our "point forward" all last season. You can talk all you want about how "we have more talent cause we had Diener at point and now have TJ and Jack," but, in actuality, we had Dunleavy and Diener running the offense last year and now we just have one of either TJ or Jack, neither of whom seems to really "get it" yet (not to mention the fact that our talent deficient perimeter often forces them to play together with Jack as SG.)

    I'd love to hear what types of plays people think JO'B should be calling in end-game situations when he has TJ/Jack/Quis/Danny/Murph on the floor. Cause, as much as yall want the unproven legend that is Josh McRoberts out there, that's our best lineup. And it's indeed gross. It's mismatched and none of those guys games really complement one another well.

    The way I see it is that this offense is built around Mike Dunleavy being prominent. Him and Daniels are not interchangeable and Daniels inspired play this season does not make what MDJ does expendable. They are two players who do completely different things as basketball players.* (These three sentences are really the only main point of this entire thing. if anyone is still reading.)

    And even though Danny has evolved over the past 30 games to a point that he's undeniably "better" than Mike Dunleavy ever has been or could be, it still doesn't make a person magically appear on our roster who can do the things that Mike Dunleavy did last season. Frankly, we just don't have one.

    So our end game play is the exact same as our mid-2nd Quarter play. We have no "go to" plays. We just play the same way we've been playing all game and hope it works out -- hope someone "makes a play." Danny has shown some ability to lead a pick-and-roll, but not really enough to make it a last play strategy. We've got nothing to go to -- because the only thing we do consistently well is run this offensive system and hope shots go down and drives to the hoop surface. Sometimes it works (Houston, Lakers, Philly) and often it makes us look helpless (pick one).

    But I really think it's the best chance we have to win. Unless you wanna start running TJ/Murphy screen/rolls, go to Rasho in the post or clear out 1-4 low for Danny.

    And sorry this got retardly long.





    * Much like Danny and Pippen, Naptime.
    Brilliant

  14. #39

    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    JayRedd's post is a credit to his insight, and makes me proud to be a Both Teamster. But this sentence makes me wonder:

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    I'm not going to put a W/L value on what the absence of his presence has caused because I'd obviously just be making it up.
    Isn't making up the won / lost values of imaginary scenarios what you do for a living? Either way, Henry James would have approved of that phrasology ("the absence of his presence").
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    travmil if we fire JOB we give up on this season is all. Who takes over?
    Larry Bird.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I just wonder, because I went back to the preseason prediction threads and saw that everybody predicted 29 or more wins - and the vast majority over 35 wins, why so many people claim to have expected us to be so bad.
    I can't find that thread, can you bump it? I wanted to see it too.
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by xtacy View Post
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    couldn't agree more.
    agreed

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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    He doesn't have talent my butt. Yeah they're not gonna win a title but they have enough talent to be better than they are. I don't even post on this board anymore because of this stupid JOB love affair that some of you have. JOB isn't even average as a coach. Calling JOB average is a complete insult to average coaches everywhere. His mind boggling decisions and late game substitutions are a joke. He doesn't have a go to play that will get you a bucket out of a timeout, and even if he did he'd draw it up for Jarrett Jack. He gives minutes to players that don't deserve them. I've made it clear that in my opinion JOB isn't even fit to coach in a YMCA youth league, and I've seen nothing out of him this season to change my mind.
    agreed. he only makes plays for the point guards to go one vs one, do you guys remember tinsley last year at the end of games?

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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    I don't see the point in firing JOB and I don't see Bird going there anytime soon. Not this season anyways. I agree with those who say he is a placeholder coach and while I probably don't think of him quite as highly as Uncle Buck does, I do think he is a decent NBA coach.

    The Pacers are rebuilding and I don't think we will really see the fruits of that rebuilding for another couple years. I do like most of Bird's moves in the past off season and I believe one more solid off season like that will transform the P's back into a legit playoff team in the East. Right now we simply are not a playoff team. We are painfully close though and that is what frustrates the fans here and I do understand that. Being close in the 4th quarter of at least 2/3 of our losses, that just plain sucks. But I really do believe this team is compensating for an overall lack of talent/experience by playing some damn good team basketball and I think you have to give JOB credit for them playing well enough to hang with the likes of Boston, Cleveland and Los Angeles when quite frankly those teams should mop the floor with us.

    Now I guess my point of view will be labeled as "making excuses" or being Sally Sunshine but really that isn't the way I think of it. I just feel it is a realistic assessment of the situation. For the first time since the post brawl playoff run in 2005, I feel good about the Pacers. The W/L record isn't there yet but I feel a sense of hope that we are working towards something bigger and better now.........whereas the last 3 years or so, I felt like not even watching a single game because it was the same old crap from the same old cast of bad characters......and I'm talking on the court too, not just off the court stuff.

    So there is my nickel, I think I exceeded two cents.

  20. #45

    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    In my opinion, JOB is probably not a championship caliber coach...however, I think he is excellent with our young players, teaching them solid fundamentals, getting them into an uptempo game which is the only way they have a chance to win, and it seems every game they play hard and do all they can to win. Sitting on the bench with JOB is Coach Harter, allegedly a defensive specialist...why aren't you calling for his head? JOB is getting everything out of these guys that they have to give....remember, three months ago most of the guys had never played a game together...let alone having to adjust to coachs run and gun style. Finally, look how long it's taken Cleveland, Atlanta, Boston, and Orlando to climb to the top of the Eastern conference...most of their teams were much worse than ours...downright awful...during their rebuilding years. Whether from trades or the draft, we're just one or two strong new players away from getting back to elite status. I think the core of our current team is pretty good and worth keeping.

  21. #46
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart


    Can Pacers improve mental toughness in 2009?

    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com

    The Indiana Pacers see themselves as being several late-game miscues and key injuries from hovering around the .500 mark.

    Some on the outside see a team with its worst record at the end of December since the 1988-89 season, when they wrapped up the calendar year 5-22.

    The Pacers (10-21) take a four-game losing streak into Friday's game at the New York Knicks.

    Fingers usually start pointing as the losses mount, often in the direction of the coach, which helps explain why six already have been fired around the NBA this season.

    The Pacers say coach Jim O'Brien can't be blamed for their lack of execution and mental toughness in key moments of close games.

    "That's not fair because that's rarely the case," forward Danny Granger said. "In the NBA, you have so many coaching changes. It's easier to put it on the coach when a lot of times it's the players. That's how the situation is here. It's the players, not the coach."

    O'Brien said earlier that he is not worried about his job status because he wasn't expected to immediately lead the Pacers to 50 victories when he was hired in May 2007. Team president Larry Bird praised O'Brien's preparation and desire to improve the team last weekend.

    Support from management, however, hasn't softened what has happened so far.

    "Obviously it's tough on all of us, and I think he's done a pretty good job considering the circumstances," forward Jeff Foster said. "(Thirty-one) games where you're coming down to the wire and we're just making mistakes that the coaching staff has coached us not to make. We're having mental breakdowns.

    "He's doing as well as can be expected, trying to stay positive and reinforce the things we're messing up on."

    O'Brien doesn't easily accept losing, regardless of the opponent or circumstances. His postgame news conferences are engaging and personable when the Pacers win. His responses are usually short and bland when they lose.

    O'Brien has remained detailed in his preparation. He often puts players through lengthy film sessions before practicing after losses. He treats game-day shootarounds like regular practices, meaning players tape up and scrimmage.

    "Every loss is difficult until you have a chance to break down the video and look at what has happened and then you figure out how you can improve and what your teaching plan is going to be for the next practice," O'Brien said. "You get on with your life and you forget about what happened in the past."

    The Pacers' effort, a key element that kept many fans away from Conseco Fieldhouse the past couple of years, can't be questioned.

    They have beaten Houston, Boston and the Los Angeles Lakers. Only six of their 21 losses have been by more than 10 points. Their past four losses have been by a total of 12 points.

    It's how they lose -- a league-high nine double-digit blown leads -- and who beat them that cause concern.

    "I think this is a great opportunity to help a franchise turn things around," O'Brien said. "I think we're headed in the right direction and I believe there will be dramatic improvements throughout 2009. I think my whole focus on an hourly basis is to make sure that happens."

    Saturday's game at 6 p.m.

    The Pacers moved up their game Saturday against Sacramento to 6 p.m. so fans wouldn't miss the Indianapolis Colts' playoff game that starts at 8 p.m.

  22. #47
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    In light of the results so far, the team is being prepared correctly for most games. We play well enough to win nearly every game. Good job by O'Brien and his staff on that front.

    What is not being done is a rotation of players with a higher level of recognition by the coaches of which players are actually playing well at a given point in the game, and not just substituting according to a set formula. This is often difficult to balance with the need for going deeper into the bench on a consistent basis.

    Also, during games there needs to be a better sense on the part of the coaching staff of when things are getting out of control and why, with better timing of timeouts and any associated substitutions. As our players get gassed, they tend to make more mental errors and play with more of a sense of desperation. The players are also becoming less confident and more tentative at times as our streak has continued, and understandably so.

    In a nutshell, we have a good coaching staff for game preparation. What we need for getting over the hump is a coaching staff that can manage substitutions and call timeouts for the purposes of controlling our players better and changing game momentum.

    We have been spoiled over the years with Larry Brown, Larry Bird / (Rick Carlisle), and Rick Carlisle himself who were good both at game preparation and game management. Control freaks? Yes. Was it the time for each to go when they did? Yes. Do we need someone like them to rebuild more effectively than we currently seem to be? I believe so. Who would that be? That would be a tough one to answer. Best candidate as a former Pacer? If he would come out of broadcasting (which I doubt), Clark Kellogg has a thorough understanding of the game, which is what leads to his effectiveness as a broadcaster. I believe that our exposure to Clark over the years has enhanced the understanding of basketball both in our state and across the nation from both his Pacers and his NCAA broadcasts. Would he want to become a coach? Unlikely at this point, and if he did he might choose THE Ohio State University, his alma mater.

    Will O'Brien last here? Likely. Will we continue our Groundhog Day performances? Hopefully not. Can we win more games than we have? Without a doubt! Go Pacers!!!!!!!!

  23. #48
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    I've always been of the belief if you have a 'talent deficit' speeding up the game is the last thing you want to do. I'm seeing comments like the above where people are saying that an uptempo game is their only chance to win. So which is it?

    That said, I don't care how much of the shot clock you use as long as you get a good shot AND that you play the situation (IOW sometimes I DO care how much of the shot clock you use). If you have a lead that is starting to dwindle, you don't want to allow an opposing team to totally grab the momentum by wasting a possession and taking a quick shot... It also doesn't hurt just to burn some clock in that situation. You don't want steamrolled. Value each possession and understand the game situation. I don't think we always do a good job of that.

    ...and play defense....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  24. #49
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    Larry Bird.
    That would make sense but is Bird capable to handle both positions right now this early in career as a GM? I say NO!

  25. #50

    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    Larry Bird.

    I'd love to see Bird have to coach the team he has assembled... just like Zeke had to with the Knicks! We all know how that turned out.


    For those that have forgotten or don't know, Bird basically let Carlisle coach the offense and Dick Harter coach the defense. Bird said numerous times over the years they did the coaching. He was successful as a coach because of it.

    Bird will never coach again, and my guess is after his GM days with the Pacers are done he'll never be a GM again either.
    Last edited by Justin Tyme; 01-01-2009 at 05:34 PM.

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