View Poll Results: Who do you like better? JOb or Rick?

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  • Jim O'Brien

    23 39.66%
  • Rick Carlisle

    35 60.34%
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Thread: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

  1. #301
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Are you coming to our side? that is what I been saying all this time. good post.
    I'll give him a chance with the vets before I join in
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  2. #302
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    The strategy of playing our vets is a farce....not because of benching the young players...but because the difference between playing our vets and giving the younger guys some time is not much of a difference. Heck, we've already got the vets logging alot of minutes.

    The only thing that will make a substantive difference is if Mike Dunleavy gets in a groove. As long as he is less than 80%, this team will continue to lose.

    ...and like Gnome said, the likelihood of the Pacers missing the playoffs at this point is quite high. The worst case scenario for this team is missing the playoffs, missing developing our young guys and lowering our draft pick...all for the 10% chance of getting spanked by the Celtics in the playoffs.

    All things considered, it's not a good bet for several reasons.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    To be quite fair, as I've stated in another post, the Pacers have a semi-decent shot at making the playoffs. We've played the league's toughest schedule (SOS at .540), we've played 5 more games at home than away, we've lost many close games that could have gone either way, and a lot of the players were injured during the stretch, plus we had to rely on a bunch of below average players (Rush, Diener, Hibbert to name a few).

  4. #304
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    It just continues to shock me how "developing the young guys" is like a holy grail. If only we play Roy, Rush and Josh 15-20 minutes per game next year they will be superstars who will lead us to the promised land. But if we make them earn their minutes the Pacers will be terrible for the next 15 years - when in reality we have a star player in Granger - shouldn't we worry about building around him instead of force-feeding minutes to two middle first round draft pick and a second rounder. Those three will be as good as they are going to be in 2 years whether they play that much or not

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Well, the dilemma is that playing minutes rarely will hurt prospects, while not giving them minutes can stunt growth. Many busts would have not been busts if they had just been given more time on the court.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Well, the dilemma is that playing minutes rarely will hurt prospects, while not giving them minutes can stunt growth. Many busts would have not been busts if they had just been given more time on the court.
    I don't agree. Name me a player that would have been great if only he had played more. A player like JO might be an example - he got very few minutes in Portland - and yet he wouldn't have been any better in 2003 and 2004 if he had played a little more in Portland. On fact in his case, he would have been injury prone a few years earlier. I see a lot of players develop bad habbits because they are forced to play huge minutes when they aren't ready or get into the bad habbit of losing. See Durrant. Tinsley is also an example of someone who was never forced to aern his minutes - he was given too much too soon.

  7. #307
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    It just continues to shock me how "developing the young guys" is like a holy grail. If only we play Roy, Rush and Josh 15-20 minutes per game next year they will be superstars who will lead us to the promised land. But if we make them earn their minutes the Pacers will be terrible for the next 15 years - when in reality we have a star player in Granger - shouldn't we worry about building around him instead of force-feeding minutes to two middle first round draft pick and a second rounder. Those three will be as good as they are going to be in 2 years whether they play that much or not
    Granger got a decent share of minutes his first year and a half. He was forced into the starting role after we traded Harrington. Looking at it this way, force feeding minutes may not be the best idea in the world. Gradual progression and showing the coach that you work hard in practice, and stay consistent is the only way.

    He may be an exception, or the example.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't agree. Name me a player that would have been great if only he had played more. A player like JO might be an example - he got very few minutes in Portland - and yet he wouldn't have been any better in 2003 and 2004 if he had played a little more in Portland. On fact in his case, he would have been injury prone a few years earlier. I see a lot of players develop bad habbits because they are forced to play huge minutes when they aren't ready or get into the bad habbit of losing. See Durrant. Tinsley is also an example of someone who was never forced to aern his minutes - he was given too much too soon.
    Darko is an example of a player who's confidence was shot by not getting minutes early in his career. Billups and JJ are considered late bloomers, but they too only just needed some stability. Of course, my example is very hard to prove, as players who languish on the bench and have their growth stunted rarely turn out to be good players down the road, as they have too much to make up.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Darko is an example of a player who's confidence was shot by not getting minutes early in his career. Billups and JJ are considered late bloomers, but they too only just needed some stability. Of course, my example is very hard to prove, as players who languish on the bench and have their growth stunted rarely turn out to be good players down the road, as they have too much to make up.
    You play well, you get extra minutes.

  10. #310

    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    I hope you didn't just refer to me as a JOB supporter, because that couldn't be further from the truth.

    There are a couple on this board if they ever lose there job they can become JO'B's pitch/PR man. It's ironical how O'Brien never does anything wrong in their eyes. I'm not for O'Brien being fired, I just want him to change a style of play that isn't working. If something ain't broke don't fix it, but this system is broken, it's obviously broken, so why not eat one's pride and fix it? How hard is that to understand? Or is it that I'm right and I'll force it to prove/show to all I'm right mentality? That's stubborness to the fault of stupidity. I once read on another forum where someone posted "ignorance can be corrected, but stupidity is forever." Come on O'Brien change the current style that is producing loss after loss giving up the points your system is giving up. It just ain't work'n fella.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    You play well, you get extra minutes.
    I don't really buy into that. Look around the league, you see players like Speights playing well but they are limited to 8 minutes a game or something.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    There are a couple on this board if they ever lose there job they can become JO'B's pitch/PR man. It's ironical how O'Brien never does anything wrong in their eyes. I'm not for O'Brien being fired, I just want him to change a style of play that isn't working. If something ain't broke don't fix it, but this system is broken, it's obviously broken, so why not eat one's pride and fix it? How hard is that to understand? Or is it that I'm right and I'll force it to prove/show to all I'm right mentality? That's stubborness to the fault of stupidity. I once read on another forum where someone posted "ignorance can be corrected, but stupidity is forever." Come on O'Brien change the current style that is producing loss after loss giving up the points your system is giving up. It just ain't work'n fella.
    I fail to see where the system is broken. Our offense was designed in the offseason to revolve around Granger/Dun to dominate the ball, and when we finally get Dun back we abandon the system? Our defense has been much better when we have veterans on the floor, the Pistons win had Ford-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster playing excellent defense down the stretch.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    I don't really buy into that. Look around the league, you see players like Speights playing well but they are limited to 8 minutes a game or something.
    I do. You earn your minutes.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    I fail to see where the system is broken. Our offense was designed in the offseason to revolve around Granger/Dun to dominate the ball, and when we finally get Dun back we abandon the system? Our defense has been much better when we have veterans on the floor, the Pistons win had Ford-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster playing excellent defense down the stretch.
    I can't find fault with our offensive philosophy. It's not my preference, but it utilizes the talents of the players we have, especially without a strong post scorer. We are putting up ample points.

    But whether we have veterans on the floor or not, one would have to question our defensive schemes. Or, at the very least, our execution of the defensive philosophy.

    I have never found our defensive execution to be "excellent" over any prolonged stretch of time, especially against better than average teams "down the stretch". From my perspective, a major problem that we have is that we are unable to get many defensive stops even when we are totally focused and absolutely have to have one.

    As for blame, I don't yet know where to place it. We certainly have a lack of talent. But is the philosophy just to complex for our players to consistently execute? Or is it the ability or willingness to execute the philosophy?

    But no matter who's fault it is, our defense consistently sucks.

  15. #315
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    It just continues to shock me how "developing the young guys" is like a holy grail.
    No moreso than the holy grail of making the playoffs with absolutely no chance of making any noise what-so-ever and with a team that will likely have several tweaks, a new system, and a new coach before they ever do make any noise in the playoffs. -Which means the experience argument of being in the playoffs rings fairly hollow to me.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't agree. Name me a player that would have been great if only he had played more. A player like JO might be an example - he got very few minutes in Portland - and yet he wouldn't have been any better in 2003 and 2004 if he had played a little more in Portland. On fact in his case, he would have been injury prone a few years earlier. I see a lot of players develop bad habbits because they are forced to play huge minutes when they aren't ready or get into the bad habbit of losing. See Durrant. Tinsley is also an example of someone who was never forced to aern his minutes - he was given too much too soon.
    Who is arguing for huge minutes? I'm just arguing not to glue them to the bench. I'm also saying our pace dictates we -need- the young guys to maintain it (not that I wouldn't be fine with reducing the pace tho).
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  17. #317

    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    I fail to see where the system is broken. Our offense was designed in the offseason to revolve around Granger/Dun to dominate the ball, and when we finally get Dun back we abandon the system? Our defense has been much better when we have veterans on the floor, the Pistons win had Ford-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster playing excellent defense down the stretch.

    You don't see where the system has failed? Maybe you need to checkout the following.

    What's the Pacers' record?

    What's the average amount of points the Pacers gave up on their recent 5 game out West road trip?

    What's the Pacers record when they give up 100 or more points to the opposition?

    What is the overall average of points in losses to other teams?

    Where is the Pacers ranked in the EC standings? Remember, this is the weaker conference.

    Where are the Pacers ranked in their division?

    I could continue, but I've made my point. The JO'B system of run n gun helterskelter play of score score score with little "D" is broken/flawed! How many teams has won a championship in the last 10 years using this type of play? How many championships has O'Brien won with his system? That should say it all.

  18. #318
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    No moreso than the holy grail of making the playoffs with absolutely no chance of making any noise what-so-ever and with a team that will likely have several tweaks, a new system, and a new coach before they ever do make any noise in the playoffs. -Which means the experience argument of being in the playoffs rings fairly hollow to me.
    I've actually said very little about making the playoffs - I think it is highly unlikely that they make the playoffs. I just think that playing to win every game, making players earn their minutes - is the holy grail. This is a competition and anytime you treat it as anything other than that - you get into trouble

  19. #319
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Darko is an example of a player who's confidence was shot by not getting minutes early in his career. Billups and JJ are considered late bloomers, but they too only just needed some stability. Of course, my example is very hard to prove, as players who languish on the bench and have their growth stunted rarely turn out to be good players down the road, as they have too much to make up.
    So Darko should have gotten minutes over Sheed, Ben Wallace, Dice, DD - I don't think so. No Darko didn't get minutes because he's not very good, he wasn't then and isn't now -

    If a player is good enough he'll get minutes - that is the case around 90%-95% of the time

  20. #320
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    There are a couple on this board if they ever lose there job they can become JO'B's pitch/PR man. It's ironical how O'Brien never does anything wrong in their eyes. I'm not for O'Brien being fired, I just want him to change a style of play that isn't working. If something ain't broke don't fix it, but this system is broken, it's obviously broken, so why not eat one's pride and fix it? How hard is that to understand? Or is it that I'm right and I'll force it to prove/show to all I'm right mentality? That's stubborness to the fault of stupidity. I once read on another forum where someone posted "ignorance can be corrected, but stupidity is forever." Come on O'Brien change the current style that is producing loss after loss giving up the points your system is giving up. It just ain't work'n fella.
    There is nothing wrong with this defensive system. Maybe you can blame the coaches for not getting the players to play it correctly with the mental and physical toughness necessary - but no matter what system you use if you don't play it aggressively it ain't going to work well

  21. #321
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    All season, I've been on Jim's side. I've felt that Jim O'Brien was doing fine for this team because we needed someone to usher in a rebuilding effort. Developing young players, changing the culture, instill professionalism by having these guys playing hard every minute they're on the floor and being prepared for the games in general. I thought that Jim did those things so well, that I over looked some of the things that he doesn't shine at in game, per se.

    Now, the word is... We are going to cease giving our young developing guys minutes to make a push for wins. Personally, I feel this is a grave mistake. I'm not calling for our developing guys to get major minutes, but they need consistent minutes instead of just garbage minutes.

    I just feel like our teams focus is turning towards one of O'Brien's weaknesses. I guess from here on out, If the focus is not getting our developing players consistent minutes... It is time to hold hold O'Brien accountable for how he manages a game. I personally will start to look at Jim with a more critical eye considering his focus isn't development.

    I do not discount the experience a team gets by going to the play-offs. I value that more then the crap-shoot known as the draft. In the end, I'm just afraid that eliminating the developing players minutes is going to get us a team that still finishes in 9th place in the East. To me, that is only a waste!
    Good post. About the only difference with me is that my questioning eye didn't come just now as this talk of 'win now' has happened but rather when I felt a line was getting crossed on our lack of defense and not addressing it. First, I thought we did play better D to begin the season. Then it's been a constant slide. Meanwhile, I do think players have gotten confidence in their offensive game and are playing hard. They are just lacking some direction, focus, preaching, coaching, whatever on the the defensive side. At a some point in the recent past that started to need addressed as part of the rebuilding process. Instead, OBrien was complimenting the bad defense and giddy over the Chinese Fire Drill offense.

    This felt much like the Phoenix game for me last year where I would've fired OBrien on the spot for allowing Tinsley to run amok like he did with no immediate repercussions. Not only did the team not need Tinsley's antics, the Pacers could ill-afford the PR hit to the dwindling fanbase that we took that night.

    Even though there's no clear "Phoenix game" for me to be the line in the sand, I do think we're there. It's time this team focused on their defense. The scoring is there. Maybe we have to sacrifice some of it for the defense. Maybe find a different balance. Whatever... the rebuilding of the offense and confidence is complete (or as far as it needs to go right now). We're not losing because we can't score, we're losing because we cannot stop anyone... and our attempts are failures. Those failures have to be addressed. IMHO we CAN do better... it's just that OBrien is not demanding better.
    Last edited by Bball; 01-16-2009 at 01:30 PM.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  22. #322
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I've actually said very little about making the playoffs - I think it is highly unlikely that they make the playoffs. I just think that playing to win every game, making players earn their minutes - is the holy grail. This is a competition and anytime you treat it as anything other than that - you get into trouble
    Th funny thing is... I agree with what you just said there. I'm not advocating big minutes to the younger players, but I am advocating minutes. Especially when the vets aren't playing fundamentally sound "D". I'm willing to live with a small amount of error from the young players as they learn and gain experience in structured minutes over seeing the vets play lazy "D". Plus, I think this silly pace demands that the young players get some burn to keep the vets fresh. You can tighten the rotations as the playoffs come up. A team not making the playoffs doesn't generally need to worry about tightening the rotations anytime.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    -John Wooden

  23. #323
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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    There is nothing wrong with this defensive system. Maybe you can blame the coaches for not getting the players to play it correctly with the mental and physical toughness necessary - but no matter what system you use if you don't play it aggressively it ain't going to work well

    If the system isn't communicated properly, or it can't be done correctly by the players, then the system is wrong.

    Basketball games aren't played on paper, or in the minds of what should happen, it's played in reality. If your players can't do it, or you can't effectively coach it, then it needs to be changed to something you can coach, or they can do.

    It's a horrible system, because it clearly is not working for this squad.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If the system isn't communicated properly, or it can't be done correctly by the players, then the system is wrong.

    Basketball games aren't played on paper, or in the minds of what should happen, it's played in reality. If your players can't do it, or you can't effectively coach it, then it needs to be changed to something you can coach, or they can do.

    It's a horrible system, because it clearly is not working for this squad.

    Thank you for this post!

    You more that adequately stated the obvious.... the system is wrong. It NEEDS to be fixed.

    The worse part is I don't think it will be fixed. That's sad! After the Utah loss I just decided this season isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. I have to quit letting the losses get to me. Just focus on the team playing better together, get this team to some how learn to play DEFENSE, and get adequate PT for McBob, Hibbert, and Rush to be able to be real contributors next season.

    When I thinking about this, the Pacers were the 7th worst team in the league, and I felt these were things if worked on and accomplished would bring about step forward in the right direction for the team next season. BUT if O'Brien doesn't change what's wrong it's not going to happen.

    Some of the core rotational players aren't going to be here next year, so if they don't work on these things for the betterment of the players that will they are going to be in the same boat next year bailing out water in order to stay afloat. Bird has to step in and take charge for things to change. If he doesn't, he's giving the green light that everything is fine, and that's a poor GM statement.

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    Default Re: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You don't see where the system has failed? Maybe you need to checkout the following.

    What's the Pacers' record?
    14-25, our strength of schedule leads the league at .538, and we have played 5 more road games than home games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    What's the average amount of points the Pacers gave up on their recent 5 game out West road trip?

    What's the Pacers record when they give up 100 or more points to the opposition?
    Not going to bother to look up these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    What is the overall average of points in losses to other teams?
    for the season our margin is 2.14 points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Where is the Pacers ranked in the EC standings? Remember, this is the weaker conference.
    14th, but again, we have had the toughest schedule in the league, we haven't had many home games, and our team has been injured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Where are the Pacers ranked in their division?
    Top of my head, last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I could continue, but I've made my point. The JO'B system of run n gun helterskelter play of score score score with little "D" is broken/flawed! How many teams has won a championship in the last 10 years using this type of play? How many championships has O'Brien won with his system? That should say it all.
    No you haven't made your point actually. We have the 16th best offense in the league and 23rd best defense in the league, pace adjusted. This is with two medicore wing defenders and a rash of injuries, the defense will get better. This is also with us playing a poor defensive center for 12 minutes a game, and playing Jack at SF for a few minutes at a time. I am absolutely not worried about our defense, which was ranked I believe 16th last year, pace adjusted.

    As for championships, we could play the championship style (grind it out, half court, slow paced game) that the past champs have played, but quite frankly we don't have the players to pull it off. If were playing a halfcourt with straight man, we'd be giving up more points. Dun and Murphy excell in the current defense we have installed.

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