View Poll Results: Who do you like better? JOb or Rick?

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  • Jim O'Brien

    23 39.66%
  • Rick Carlisle

    35 60.34%
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Thread: The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

  1. #76
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Describe, exactly, how it was mostly his fault.
    well heres a though. NY cut our 10 point lead down in the 4th, went on a 7-0 run and no timeout was called. A coach has to call a timeout to calm the crowd down and try to cool the other team down

    How about taking Hibbert off in the first quarter when he was 4-4 in 8 mins then give him a little mins in the 3rd then pull him out for the rest of the game. How does that make sense? Hibbert earned his mins today, and JOB didnt award him
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  2. #77
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Describe, exactly, how it was mostly his fault.
    He had **** poor subsitutions. Whenever the Knicks would go on a run, he wouldn't call a timeout, he'd let the crowd get into the game and the Knicks keep the momentum till a timeout off a turnover.

    He kept both Daniels and Ford in the game even when they'd miss shot, after shot, after shot. the best coaching decision he has made all season is to not call a timeout for our final shot, soley because his input surely woulda screwed us over.

    We had what, an 11 point lead going into the 4th, and managed to blow it to one of the least talented teams in the NBA. Our advantage of the game was height, I think Al Harrington might be the Knicks tallest active player, yet Hibbert who dominated when on the court, got subbed out for Foster who really didn't play all that well defensively, and Rasho, who could post up every player on the Knicks roster didn't play at all.

    Then, in the 4th, because Obie went small ball, Granger was forced to guard Harrington in the post. Harrington scored about 10, probably more, of his points in the 4th because Obie wouldn't put in a big to defend him. Possession after possession, he would just post up all the smaller guys who stood no chance, and Obie did nothing about it. If it wasn't for Jack, we would have gotten destroyed tonight.

  3. #78
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    Default Re: A piece of my mind

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    I dont have faith in it no more. Its good through out 3 quarters but after that we're just stagnant, the defense figures us our pretty easy. We have our Cs standing at the free throw line where other teams are just giving them 3-5 feet to do nothing
    How many games does it take for everyone to realize that his system does not wear well in the 4th quarter? Why anyone is wondering anymore is a mystery to me.

    We are 5th in the league in turnovers for a reason. That is a big reason why we are not playing well. Why do we have so many turnovers? Because the system is a mess OR the players simply are not good enough to execute it. We are NOT that young of a team, folks.

    Anyone remember how Rick Carlisle used to harp on turnovers? Well, Rick has more talent than Obie for sure, but has his team above .600 with an aging Jason Kidd. For some reason, I seriously doubt this team would be worse off with Rick Carlisle. JMHOAA.

  4. #79
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franchise55 View Post
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    He had **** poor subsitutions. Whenever the Knicks would go on a run, he wouldn't call a timeout, he'd let the crowd get into the game and the Knicks keep the momentum till a timeout off a turnover.

    He kept both Daniels and Ford in the game even when they'd miss shot, after shot, after shot. the best coaching decision he has made all season is to not call a timeout for our final shot, soley because his input surely woulda screwed us over.

    We had what, an 11 point lead going into the 4th, and managed to blow it to one of the least talented teams in the NBA. Our advantage of the game was height, I think Al Harrington might be the Knicks tallest active player, yet Hibbert who dominated when on the court, got subbed out for Foster who really didn't play all that well defensively, and Rasho, who could post up every player on the Knicks roster didn't play at all.

    Then, in the 4th, because Obie went small ball, Granger was forced to guard Harrington in the post. Harrington scored about 10, probably more, of his points in the 4th because Obie wouldn't put in a big to defend him. Possession after possession, he would just post up all the smaller guys who stood no chance, and Obie did nothing about it. If it wasn't for Jack, we would have gotten destroyed tonight.
    First, I do think Hibbert should've gotten more minutes, but don't necessarily think it was going to have a huge impact on the game. He was considerably less effective in the second half than he was in the first.

    Of course, he kept Daniels in the game. Who's he going to play? I'm no fan of Marquis, but he went 1 of 6 on good shots in the fourth quarter. He missed three 13 footers, a 19 footer, and a 5 footer. This is a guy who has shot over 50% on 2 point attempts this year.

    This win tonight over one of the "least talented teams in the league" cut their lead over us to 1 1/2 games. We are what our record says we are right now. There are no gimme victories, particularly on the road.

    So, if the 6'8" 225lb Danny Granger is too small to guard the 6'9" 230lb Al Harrington, please tell me what "big" we were going to use to guard him. Are you suggesting Hibbert or Rasho or Murphy or Foster? With the possible exception of Foster, that just looks like a parade to the foul line to me.

    As to the time outs, that's always a judgment call. The Pacers responded to the first 7-0 run by pushing the lead back to seven without calling a timeout. An automatic time out is not always the answer. The only real answer to a run is a bucket and a stop.

    EDIT: I am not saying that O'Brien is perfect, and I don't agree with everything that he does. I simply don't buy that everything is his fault. The players on the floor have to execute and hit shots. The team as a whole isn't very good, and there are very few, if any, coaches who would post a much better record than they have now. If O'Brien were fired today, I have a high degree of confidence that it would be fewer than 30 games into the next permanent coach's tenure that this incessant *****ing started all over again.
    Last edited by count55; 01-03-2009 at 01:00 AM.

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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    I don't like the hate for JOB.

    How about the thought that Hibbert was winded in such a fast paced game like this? We know when big men get winded they start to reach, and that leads to fouls, putting our team in the penalty. Add the fact we have the second of a back to back tomorrow vs the Kings, where Roy might be more effective.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a timeout right before the Knicks had the ball? Maybe JOB told them ahead of time, this is what we do on defense and this is what we do when we get the ball back. Don't call a timeout and let them set up, give it to Jack because he's feeling it, and clear it out. If he makes it we win, if he misses it's a good shot because he's carrying us all quarter. Jack has to love the trust JOB put in him.

  6. #81
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    First, I do think Hibbert should've gotten more minutes, but don't necessarily think it was going to have a huge impact on the game. He was considerably less effective in the second half than he was in the first.

    Of course, he kept Daniels in the game. Who's he going to play? I'm no fan of Marquis, but he went 1 of 6 on good shots in the fourth quarter. He missed three 13 footers, a 19 footer, and a 5 footer. This is a guy who has shot over 50% on 2 point attempts this year.

    This win tonight over one of the "least talented teams in the league" cut their lead over us to 1 1/2 games. We are what our record says we are right now. There are no gimme victories, particularly on the road.

    So, if the 6'8" 225lb Danny Granger is too small to guard the 6'9" 230lb Al Harrington, please tell me what "big" we were going to use to guard him. Are you suggesting Hibbert or Rasho or Murphy or Foster? With the possible exception of Foster, that just looks like a parade to the foul line to me.

    As to the time outs, that's always a judgment call. The Pacers responded to the first 7-0 run by pushing the lead back to seven without calling a timeout. An automatic time out is not always the answer. The only real answer to a run is a bucket and a stop.

    EDIT: I am not saying that O'Brien is perfect, and I don't agree with everything that he does. I simply don't buy that everything is his fault. The players on the floor have to execute and hit shots. The team as a whole isn't very good, and there are very few, if any, coaches who would post a much better record than they have now. If O'Brien were fired today, I have a high degree of confidence that it would be fewer than 30 games into the next permanent coach's tenure that this incessant *****ing started all over again.
    Hibbert may not have been cold in the second half if he played more than 7 minutes in the 1st. Harrington looked a lot bigger than Granger on the court, I think he is closer to 6'10 though, and he seems longer - either way, Granger can't guard him in the post. I would have been fine with subbing Ford out, who was 1 of 9 shooting, with more TO's than assists, and putting McRoberts in to guard Harrington.

    I don't think everything is the coaches fault either, but when you blow 4th quarter leads every game, and every game he makes very questionable subsitutions to the point that other teams announcers are calling him out on it, then something is wrong. I for one, believe this team is more talented than a lot of people on this site think. I don't think we are great by any means, but we would be a lot better if Obie didn't sub out players when they are hot, never call timeouts when other teams are making huge runs, and actually drew up plays that work. Have you noticed that about 75% of the time, when he draws up a play, right out of the timeout, we turn it over or get a terrible shot. His plays have never worked, pay attention next time and you'll see.

    This Pacers team has proven to have the talent, by being in games in the 4th. Its the coaches job to draw up good players to finish them out. The other day, we were in a game, I forget who we were playing, but early in the 3rd or 4th the other team got into foul trouble. I mean like 4 minutes into the quarter we were in the bonus. For 5 straight minutes we took nothing but jumpers. Obie needs to yell at the guys to drive to the hoop and get to the line, we had a huge advantage and he didn't get our players into the game. Frankly, they should have known to do that also, but its the coaches job to make sure they do, when they don't. He didn't do that.

    I have never thought a basketball coach lost games until Obie. I have never criticized a basketball coach until Obie. He is the only basketball coach that I have ever seen, that makes decisions like that and keeps his job. Jim O'Brien is the perfect hire for teams looking to lose. I promise you that if we had Avery Johnson as our coach we would be a much better team.

  7. #82
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Hibbert was taken out when he had it going...and then he went cold after being benched. I suppose when they play Harrington and Lee it's a bad matchup for us, but Granger (and even worse, Brandon Rush) should never have guarded the 245lb Al Harrington. That should have been Foster's job. David Lee is not tiny, but he's also not as physical on the block. Granger should have been on Lee and Foster on Harrington. McBob did not play well for the few minutes he was in, but 4 minutes is not enough time to even warm up. In a game against a team playing David Lee and Harrington, McBob should have been given more minutes.

    As for the Knicks record, it's better than ours because of our schedule in November and most of December. We beat them because we are better even without Dunleavy.

    As for the time-out, that would require an in-game adjustment. I do believe most coaches would have called a time-out, but the fact it was not called kind of fits JOb's style. It is what it is.

  8. #83
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Just because your favorite player isn't getting 48 MPG doesn't make the coach bad. JOB has some weird rotations and it does seem that 50% (?) of the last second shots to end any of the four corners are taken by the same guy who dribbles the ball down the court.

    JOB called the play "2-2-6" whatever that may be from the sidelines after the Pacers secured the rebound for the last play. He even had to yell it a few times to somebody. I was in the basement of my house in Indy and knew the play. It's safe to assume the 5 guys on the court did as well. No need for a timeout..... they had a play.


    With all of that said I also hate JOB as the coach but some of you's need to calmicus downicus.

  9. #84
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    Default Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    Ok, here we have a contrast in styles, to put it lightly.

    Which system/style do you prefer? Neither? Certainly not both.

    Have at it.


    Edit: Ricky supposedly is running more now. If anyone knows to what extent, please inform...
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 01-03-2009 at 01:54 AM.

  10. #85
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Just because your favorite player isn't getting 48 MPG doesn't make the coach bad. JOB has some weird rotations and it does seem that 50% (?) of the last second shots to end any of the four corners are taken by the same guy who dribbles the ball down the court.

    JOB called the play "2-2-6" whatever that may be from the sidelines after the Pacers secured the rebound for the last play. He even had to yell it a few times to somebody. I was in the basement of my house in Indy and knew the play. It's safe to assume the 5 guys on the court did as well. No need for a timeout..... they had a play.


    With all of that said I also hate JOB as the coach but some of you's need to calmicus downicus.
    I have taken a chill pill.

    So, he barked a play out while people were racing around the court, totally out of position? I wondered why it was so difficult for this team to execute in the 4th quarter.

  11. #86
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    ****, I meant to vote for O'Brien. I like Carlisle I was just getting tired of the "I'm gonna open things up and let the players play talk" then he'd continue to call every single play. Don't really have strong opinions on either. Now both Larrys were great coaches.

  12. #87
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    I think a couple of things are being overlooked.

    There are 14 real Pacers this year. 9 of them have never been on a winning NBA team. Danny played more minutes in his second season than 6 of them have in their entire careers (includes the rooks).

    Only three players on this team have ever been past the first round of the playoffs (all were reserve/role players) and only two others (one was Danny's rookie season) have ever even been there. This is not a team of proven winners at this level.

    Don't like JOB but let's be realistic.

  13. #88
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    I like winning. Rick has only 1 losing season. He's got 2 ECFs, 2 second rounds and other first round season, and now he's clearly headed for yet another winning season and possibly some advancement into the playoffs. And he has Dallas back to playing defense.

    But on my list of Pacers coaches JOB is closer to the top than the bottom. Guys below him - Isiah, Hill, Versace all spring to mind. Rick, Bird and Brown are the main guys ahead of him. And Slick of course.

  14. #89
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    Rick. Not even close.

  15. #90
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    Rickkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    this comparison is an insult to carlisle.

  17. #92
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    Voting RC b/c I prefer his overall approach. However, I honestly don't think he'd be doing anymore than JOB with what's in the cupboard here.

    In fact, he might actually do less with our guys. The one area I was never impressed with about RC was his sideline demeanor and ability to relate to players.

    True he had some real zingers to relate to (and I couldn't see behind the scenes), but I think JOB is probably better in tis area with a younger bunch. RC definitely rolls better with a more veteran squad.
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  18. #93
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Ok, here we have a contrast in styles, to put it lightly.

    Which system/style do you prefer? Neither? Certainly not both.

    Have at it.


    Edit: Ricky supposedly is running more now. If anyone knows to what extent, please inform...
    Dallas' "Pace Factor" (estimate of possessions per 48 minutes) is 91.6, which is slightly below the league average of 91.7 and ranks 17th this season.

    It is lower than Rick's final year here, when the Pacers had a Pace factor of 92.7, which was 10th in the league and above the 91.9 league average. His earlier seasons with the Pacers (in chronological order) were 87.5 (26th), 87.2 (29th), and 89.7 (20th).

    So, he's not slogging it out the way he was the first two years here, but he's not exactly running an up-tempo offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I like winning. Rick has only 1 losing season. He's got 2 ECFs, 2 second rounds and other first round season, and now he's clearly headed for yet another winning season and possibly some advancement into the playoffs. And he has Dallas back to playing defense.

    But on my list of Pacers coaches JOB is closer to the top than the bottom. Guys below him - Isiah, Hill, Versace all spring to mind. Rick, Bird and Brown are the main guys ahead of him. And Slick of course.
    And if Rick were still here, he'd likely be working on his third losing season. O'Brien has one ECF appearance, and currently only one full losing season. Using winning as a barometer assumes the same talent levels, which is certainly not accurate.

    I basically consider Rick and Obie about equal in terms of quality. Both have good traits, and both have flaws. Rick is a little too set-piece for me, and O'Brien is a little too loose, offensively, for my taste. Neither is going to overcome a talent deficit, neither will greatly hamper good talent.

    And, one more thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Seth
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    And he has Dallas back to playing defense.
    Your information is about five years out of date. The 96.7 points they're giving up this season is the highest since the 2005 season, when Nellie coached for half the year before Avery took over. The .437 FG% is the best in that time frame, but the previous four years were (chronologically) .438, .443, .447, and .443.

    Using Defensive Rating (points per 100 possessions), this season's 104.6 is the second best in the last five years, with 2007 being 103.2. They are currently 9th in this category, which is where they were last year. Dallas was 5th in 2007, 11th in 2006, and 9th in 2005.

    Rick did not take over Nellie's Mavs, and his defense is basically on a par with where Avery Johnson had it for the last four years.

  19. #94
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Voting RC b/c I prefer his overall approach. However, I honestly don't think he'd be doing anymore than JOB with what's in the cupboard here.

    In fact, he might actually do less with our guys. The one area I was never impressed with about RC was his sideline demeanor and ability to relate to players.

    True he had some real zingers to relate to (and I couldn't see behind the scenes), but I think JOB is probably better in tis area with a younger bunch. RC definitely rolls better with a more veteran squad.
    More to the point, I don't relish trying to run a set-piece, heavily play-calling, half-court offense with this personnel.

    We may or may not be a better defensive team with Rick as coach, but I am sure we would be a worse offensive team. (And I don't think we're particularly good offensively right now.)

  20. #95
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    I see a Pacers team that comes out and plays hard (pretty much) every game.

    A team where the players actually seem to care about winning games, even if they lose.

    I hear about a team that practices hard, and actually works on basketball fundementals - picks, footwork, "jump stops".

    I see a team that actually does play as a team, as so much you can in the NBA.

    I see players that seems to care about each other, and are happy when they do well.

    I see a team that I actually care about, and like to watch. As opposed to last year.

    No doubt our personnel changes have had something to do with that, but you have to give JOB some of the credit as well.

    Most of the coach's work is done in practice and preparation, not in games. Think of the 'tip of the iceberg' cliche. You only see what's above water.

    And IMO, JOB is an excellent practice coach. He is a solid, no-nonsense professional coach. And that is exactly what this team needed at this stage of their development.
    Last edited by Doug; 01-03-2009 at 10:23 AM.
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  21. #96
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
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    I see a Pacers team that comes out and plays hard (pretty much) every game.

    A team where the players actually seem to care about winning games, even if they lose.

    I hear about a team that practices hard, and actually works on basketball fundementals - picks, footwork, "jump stops".

    I see a team that actually does play as a team, as so much you can in the NBA.

    I see players that seems to care about each other, and are happy when they do well.

    I see a team that I actually care about, and like to watch. As opposed to last year.

    No doubt our personnel changes have had something to do with that, but you have to give JOB some of the credit as well.

    Most of the coach's work is done in practice and preparation, not in games. Think of the 'tip of the iceberg' cliche. You only see what's above water.

    And IMO, JOB is an excellent practice coach. He is a solid, no-nonsense professional coach. And that is exactly what this team needed at this stage of their development.
    Seconded.

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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
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    I see a Pacers team that comes out and plays hard (pretty much) every game.

    A team where the players actually seem to care about winning games, even if they lose.

    I hear about a team that practices hard, and actually works on basketball fundementals - picks, footwork, "jump stops".

    I see a team that actually does play as a team, as so much you can in the NBA.

    I see players that seems to care about each other, and are happy when they do well.

    I see a team that I actually care about, and like to watch. As opposed to last year.

    No doubt our personnel changes have had something to do with that, but you have to give JOB some of the credit as well.

    Most of the coach's work is done in practice and preparation, not in games. Think of the 'tip of the iceberg' cliche. You only see what's above water.

    And IMO, JOB is an excellent practice coach. He is a solid, no-nonsense professional coach. And that is exactly what this team needed at this stage of their development.

    Thank you for a well thought out, but also a post with a great deal of perspective great to read

  23. #98
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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    I like them both a lot.

    I do laugh now that so many think Rick is a great coach, where were many of you two and thre years ago

  24. #99
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    Default Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
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    I see a Pacers team that comes out and plays hard (pretty much) every game.

    A team where the players actually seem to care about winning games, even if they lose.

    I hear about a team that practices hard, and actually works on basketball fundementals - picks, footwork, "jump stops".

    I see a team that actually does play as a team, as so much you can in the NBA.

    I see players that seems to care about each other, and are happy when they do well.

    I see a team that I actually care about, and like to watch. As opposed to last year.

    No doubt our personnel changes have had something to do with that, but you have to give JOB some of the credit as well.

    Most of the coach's work is done in practice and preparation, not in games. Think of the 'tip of the iceberg' cliche. You only see what's above water.

    And IMO, JOB is an excellent practice coach. He is a solid, no-nonsense professional coach. And that is exactly what this team needed at this stage of their development.
    I just want to echo this. I really, really like Obie for this team.

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    Default Re: Rick Carlisle vs Jim O'Brien

    Carlsle for head coach with OB as assistant coach / offensive coordinator and Harter as defensive coordinator would be fine by me. Yes, Carlisle didn't have the people skills to relate to the players. If O'Brien does better in that regard then we would have the best of both worlds. However, both coaches have stubborn streaks and would not likely be able to coexist on the same sideline.

    From a tactical standpoint Carlisle is better as a structured system coach, everyone knows that. Everyone also knows that our near championship caliber athletic team with all of our former troublemakers much preferred to be allowed to freelance and follow their own agendas. Perhaps O'Brien would have been the more appropriate coach for that group when compared to Carlisle. Maybe he would have coddled the players in a different fashion than Carlisle by allowing them to determine their own touches by simply staying out of their way. Maybe O'Brien would have stopped us from hearing the complaints out of the players that we were too predictable which made us easier to defend than we should have been. What better way to coach a group of guys who Reggie immediately labeled upon his departure as the deepest team in the league by far, but that also had too many guys with their own agendas to make it all the way?

    The last thing that O'Brien would do would be to stop players from freelancing. He encourages it, in fact, which leads to our inconsistency. When we are hot, it is very difficult to contain us offensively. However, we tend to implode at inopportune times due to fatigue and carelessness borne of a feeling of desperation that as an individual the player with the ball feels like he must make something happen before it is too late. This is a contributing factor in the lack of effective ball movement in late game situations, leading to our guards taking (and more often than not MISSING, despite last nights win) last possession shots that are not often quality looks.

    Coaches like Sloan, Poppovich, Stan Van Gundy, Carlisle, Brown, etc. always can be counted on to gather their players and set up situations in the huddle down the stretch that creates a sense of structure, forcing their players to concentrate more on the task at hand than the score, and calling plays that either lead to high quality looks with proper execution or, if the opponents stop the primary play, leads to a viable secondary scoring option to kick to. Freelancing does not provide any of this. Disciplined leadership does.

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