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Thread: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

  1. #26
    Member Mr. Sobchak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Bottom ten then? Somewhere around there - certainly not in the top 15.

    Certainly you must be joking. Name 15 point guard rotations (starter and backup) that you would rather have than TJ and Jack.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Since when do we like Dunn at SG? I like Dunleavy as a player, but I cringe when he's playing SG.
    Explain this please. What do you hate about Dun playing 2?

  3. #28

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Peskoe97 View Post
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    Certainly you must be joking. Name 15 point guard rotations (starter and backup) that you would rather have than TJ and Jack.
    You're debating with someone who admittedly doesn't watch TJ play. Save your efforts.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    Explain this please. What do you hate about Dun playing 2?
    Too tall. Too slow. Especially on the defensive end. He's a natural SF, so it works okay on the wing offensively but I don't like the Granger/ Dunleavy tandem at the other end of the court. My take is that one of the two of them will have a big game, but its much less common for both of them to have a big game at the same time because they are too similar.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Peskoe97 View Post
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    Certainly you must be joking. Name 15 point guard rotations (starter and backup) that you would rather have than TJ and Jack.
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    You're debating with someone who admittedly doesn't watch TJ play. Save your efforts.
    TJ Ford's game is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. I just can't stand to watch him use his quickness to drive into trouble where he's too small to find either an open man or a decent shot. The one semi-advantage he's got (quickness in the open court ) turns into his #1 weakness (quickness in the half court). If I were defending him, I'd crowd the ball and prompt him to drive into the heart of the defense every time, because he rarely makes good plays happen in that situation.

    If he ever learns to stay out of the paint against a regular half-court defense, that would be better. Of course, I don't know what he'd do... just pass the ball along the perimeter I guess and any number of NBA PGs could do that.

    I can name 40 or 50 PGs I'd rather have starting. Including Jack and Tinsley. (There, I said it.)

    I'm okay with Jack as the backup.
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  6. #31

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I just can't agree with this notion at all. Talent can only get you so far. You are forgetting we pay these guys millions of dollars for a reason. If they are so much less talented then we should just shut down shop and save the money.

    I can't agree with Chicago J on almost anything. TJ Ford is the best point gaurd we've had in a while. I just don't see how you can hate him driving to the lane when he has done so well in doing so.

    Now as for JT, I already went on my limb and said we should be playing him again. Forgive and forget. I don't see what he did that was so wrong. If I rememer correctly, someone was trying to kill him, and a shoot out went down downtown Indy that was like the "old west." I also don't think I'd like to see TJ or Jack get less minutes so I'm stuck here.


    And to say that we have lost alot of talent with JO, Tinsley, Al, Jackson, Artest leaving is just absurd. JO was terrible for us. Everytime he got the ball he would destroy our offense. Yea he was a good defender, but I think Roy is already developing into a stronger defender than JO ever was. While Roy isn't as good as JO in his prime, he is better than the JO we had the last few years.Jackson was the worse shooter I've ever seen. Now I cringed everytime he shot the ball. Al was the most over rated guy I've ever seen. Just because he was a ball hog and he scored alot doesn't mean he is more talented. Murphy is having a better year here with us than Al has ever had. Artest is Artest but I still would take Granger 10 times out of 10.

    Only one left is JT. JT wasn't any better of a defender than Ford. He was also way worse at finishing at the basket, was way slower, couldn't create as much as TJ or Jack.

    So IMO, Roy>JO (not JO in hs prime or the rookie Roy, but at this point, I'm gald we have Roy and JO) Murphy or Foster>Harrington(Well Murphy in scoring/rebounds and Foster defense/rebounds), TJ>JT(this one isn't even close, anyone who thinks otherwise please pass that ****), Granger>Artest(in every aspect other than manning up the perimeter but I think Rush has the potential to be that) Dunleavy/Rush>Jackson(and it isn't even close).


    I just don't see where we are really dire for talent other than in the post and I don't think we are so much there since we are actually utilizing Roy. Throw in McRoberts and we are okay.

    We still pay these players millions of dollars and I think if we had a better record people would be saying the exact opposite about the talent thing.
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 12-20-2008 at 03:46 PM.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    TJ Ford's game is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. I just can't stand to watch him use his quickness to drive into trouble where he's too small to find either an open man or a decent shot. The one semi-advantage he's got (quickness in the open court ) turns into his #1 weakness (quickness in the half court). If I were defending him, I'd crowd the ball and prompt him to drive into the heart of the defense every time, because he rarely makes good plays happen in that situation.

    If he ever learns to stay out of the paint against a regular half-court defense, that would be better. Of course, I don't know what he'd do... just pass the ball along the perimeter I guess and any number of NBA PGs could do that.

    I can name 40 or 50 PGs I'd rather have starting. Including Jack and Tinsley. (There, I said it.)

    I'm okay with Jack as the backup.
    (Did I read that someone said that you dont even watch the Pacers that much, or some such statement.)

    One thing about your statement that struck me is that your description of TJ's game is exactly what seems to be the common trend in the NBA today. The Nets are basing their system on doing the same thing. Same for the Bulls with Rose. The Spurs with Parker, Paul in New Orleans.

    I'm curious, and maybe others can tell me, do you just have something against TJ? I'm not his biggest fan, but your opinion of him seems more than a bit extreme.
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  8. #33
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Peskoe97 View Post
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    Name 15 point guard rotations (starter and backup) that you would rather have than TJ and Jack.
    CP3/my grandma
    Deron/my grandma
    Frenchie/my grandma
    Nash/my grandma
    Chauncey/my grandma
    Rajon/my grandma
    Gilbert/my grandma
    Rose/my grandma
    Devin/my grandma
    Baron/my grandma
    JKidd/Barea
    Bibby/Law
    Mo Will/Boobie/Delonte
    Fish/Farmar
    Jameer/AJ

    and quite possibly

    Rafer/Brooks
    Felton/Augustin
    Conley/Lowry

    We're in a Renaissance Golden Age of PGs and neither of ours is getting it done consistently right now.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 12-20-2008 at 04:02 PM.
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  9. #34
    Member Mr. Sobchak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    CP3/my grandma
    Deron/my grandma
    Frenchie/my grandma
    Nash/my grandma
    Chauncey/my grandma
    Rajon/my grandma
    Gilbert/my grandma
    Rose/my grandma
    Devin/my grandma
    Baron/my grandma
    JKidd/Barea
    Bibby/Law
    Mo Will/Boobie/Delonte
    Fish/Farmar
    Jameer/AJ

    and quite possibly

    Rafer/Brooks
    Felton/Augustin
    Conley/Lowry

    We're in a Renaissance Golden Age of PGs and neither of ours is getting it done consistently right now.



    Mo Williams was a terrible defender and a cancer with Milaukee whos talent was comparable to ours last year. TJ would look great playing next to Lebron too. Put TJ on Orlando and he is an all star.

    All I'm saying is that if you put half of those guys on our team they would struggle.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Of JayRedd's list, I'd take Paul, D. Williams, Parker, Nash, Billups, Rondo, Rose, Harris, Davis, and maybe Fisher over TJ. Fisher not for his talent, but for what are his talents relative to TJ's talents. I prefer Fisher's defense and shooting over TJ's speed and quickness. I'm undecided on M. Williams. Depends on if he's a good defender or not. I'm of the opinion that Kidd is a shell of himself now.

    So I guess this means I view TJ Ford as a top 10 to top 12 PG, albiet towards the bottom of either list.

  11. #36

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Talent will only get you so far. Most Important the Pacers need to gel as a team. The season is young the Colts were 3-4 @ one point this season and are currently on an eight game win streak. If we can put some W's together we could sneak in the playoffs. We might have a chance of knocking off Detroit/Orlando/Atlanta. Boston & Cleveland are just superior to us right now and will be all season.
    Please don't use the Colts as a reference for what the Pacers can do. 2 completely different situations, and this thread just shows off that point. Pacers are in the bottom 5 in the league arguably in talent. Certainly in the bottom 10. The Colts are on the opposite end of that argument, probably the top 5 in the NFL, and they also have arguably the best (and hottest) player at the most important position in the game (QB).

    I see no Pacer player being anywhere near the best player at his own position, let alone one that is nearly as important as the QB is to football. I see one guy who could be top 5 in his position (Granger) and a bunch of guys who wouldn't even start on a lot of other teams.

    That was just a bad, bad point to try to make.

    -- Steve --

  12. #37

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    Please don't use the Colts as a reference for what the Pacers can do. 2 completely different situations, and this thread just shows off that point. Pacers are in the bottom 5 in the league arguably in talent. Certainly in the bottom 10. The Colts are on the opposite end of that argument, probably the top 5 in the NFL, and they also have arguably the best (and hottest) player at the most important position in the game (QB).

    I see no Pacer player being anywhere near the best player at his own position, let alone one that is nearly as important as the QB is to football. I see one guy who could be top 5 in his position (Granger) and a bunch of guys who wouldn't even start on a lot of other teams.

    That was just a bad, bad point to try to make.

    -- Steve --
    The Colts have UDFAs that come in and play all the time. They send first, second, and sixth round draft picks to the Pro Bowl. The argument is always there for Manning being one of the best ever. It is kinda like having a Jordan or a Shaq in basketball. They don't come around everyday. If you analyze the Colts though Manning can't win the games by himself. Having possibly the best QB of all time can't win you the SB(Marino.) Or maybe the best SG behind Jordan, Reggie. If you look at the Pacers of old what players could you put in the top 5 at their position? Maybe Reggie, and Mark Jackson? I'm struggling to think of anyone else...We need only one player to build around. We have something special with Granger, and alot of talent around him IMO. Give it time...
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 12-21-2008 at 03:56 AM.

  13. #38

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Oh and another thing. Everytime I get a chance to catch a game, I never feel like the other team has so much more "talent" than we do. I feel like we have been playing well this year given the hardest schedule in the NBA. Only in the low post have we been dominated. I like starting Hibbert. If he can get 5 blocks again and again I'll feel alot more confident in the future. We will see where we are after February and have a better idea...

  14. #39
    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I dont think that its the entire pacers that are far less talented. I honestly feel its just our big men. We are probally the very worst team in the league when it comes to talent in our 4 and 5 positions. We do not have a post up player. Our best post defender is not a starter, and our most paid guy would rather sit at the 3 point line rather than mix it up.

    Our 1-3 positions are actually very stacked imo. We have 2 quality PG's a high engery SG in daniels, a All star in the making in Granger a very very good sg/sf backup in dun and then you throw in rush who play some great D and that makes a good 1-3 team.

    We just need to work on getting a big man that can score 10-15 points a game in the post and also get us 7 boards and we would be a MUCH better team.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by justinDOHMAN View Post
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    I dont think that its the entire pacers that are far less talented. I honestly feel its just our big men. We are probally the very worst team in the league when it comes to talent in our 4 and 5 positions. We do not have a post up player. Our best post defender is not a starter, and our most paid guy would rather sit at the 3 point line rather than mix it up.

    Our 1-3 positions are actually very stacked imo. We have 2 quality PG's a high engery SG in daniels, a All star in the making in Granger a very very good sg/sf backup in dun and then you throw in rush who play some great D and that makes a good 1-3 team.

    We just need to work on getting a big man that can score 10-15 points a game in the post and also get us 7 boards and we would be a MUCH better team.

    I totally agree with the 1-3 thing. We are set here IMO. Daniels is playing great. Dunleavy returning would be a huge plus. If we can work a trade for some low post help I'm all for it. But at all cost I want Hibbert and McRoberts to remain. I'd rather see Jeff and Troy stay than Rasho. Could we pull off a Tinsley/Rasho trade for a solid PF or C?(I guess only in dreams. LOL.)

    It seems like all we need is one dominant beast in the low post and coach to have faith in McRoberts and Hibbert and we could be stacked here too with McRoberts/Hibbert/Foster/Murphy/(insert beast). I don't know if that trade happens but if I know Larry he will work something. Hopefully he doesn't give up too much.

  16. #41

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    The Colts have UDFAs that come in and play all the time. They send first, second, and sixth round draft picks to the Pro Bowl. The argument is always there for Manning being one of the best ever. It is kinda like having a Jordan or a Shaq in basketball. They don't come around everyday. If you analyze the Colts though Manning can't win the games by himself. Having possibly the best QB of all time can't win you the SB(Marino.) Or maybe the best SG behind Jordan, Reggie. If you look at the Pacers of old what players could you put in the top 5 at their position? Maybe Reggie, and Mark Jackson? I'm struggling to think of anyone else...We need only one player to build around. We have something special with Granger, and alot of talent around him IMO. Give it time...

    It's the NFL. Every team sends first, second, and sixth round picks out on the field and to the Pro Bowl. *cough*Tom Brady*cough* That does not make the relevance any better.

    Point is, at their positions Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, Wayne, Clark, Manning, and Saturday are all at, or near the top of the heap when it comes to how good they are at their job. You can focus on Manning all day like you just did, but you contradicted yourself. You're right, Manning CAN'T win all by himself. He has a CAST of talented players. Something the Pacers do not have.

    Exactly the point I was trying to make, and you're agreeing with it, but still trying to make a debate contrary. I don't know how that can work, honestly.

    -- Steve --

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    CP3/my grandma
    Deron/my grandma
    Frenchie/my grandma
    Nash/my grandma
    Chauncey/my grandma
    Rajon/my grandma
    Gilbert/my grandma
    Rose/my grandma
    Devin/my grandma
    Baron/my grandma
    JKidd/Barea
    Bibby/Law
    Mo Will/Boobie/Delonte
    Fish/Farmar
    Jameer/AJ

    and quite possibly

    Rafer/Brooks
    Felton/Augustin
    Conley/Lowry

    We're in a Renaissance Golden Age of PGs and neither of ours is getting it done consistently right now.
    You sort of ignored the real challenge. The last time I checked, yo grandma didn't play in the NBA.

    DWill > TJ but Jack > Knight
    Parker > TJ but Jack > Hill
    Nash > TJ but Jack > anybody they put at the point.
    Chauncey > TJ but Jack > ACarter
    Rajon>TJ but Jack > House
    Gilbert's not even playing so scratch that one out.
    Rose = TJ (maybe in a year he'll be better but not yet) and Jack > Hinrich

    I'm not even going to go through the rest of them because the Pacers TANDEM is better than them all with the exception of Kidd and Barea. Whether or not you think that makes them better overall is a completely different question that no one asked.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  18. #43
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I don't think Rajon is better than TJ.

    Call me a hater.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Not to say Rondo isn't becoming a very good player, but he did get a dream job for any young point guard.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I don't think Rajon is better than TJ.

    Call me a hater.
    Seconded. Rondo is vastly overated because he plays with the big three, which helps his stats immensely.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Rondo is a debatable one, but when I consider he's a few inches taller (TJ is more like 5'10 than 6'), is a much better defender (and I say that before I consider he gets twice as many steals), is just about as fast/quick, and hits almost 10% more of his shots (with neither being much of an outside shooter), it's hard for me to say no if the Celtics offered to trade them for one another straight up.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    For me, it's the handles. I think Rondo is a much better ball handler in traffic.

    He'd be an upgrade in my opinion, and I like TJ a lot.
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  23. #48
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I'll admit I haven't watched many Celtics games this year. It hurts... it's like they're in a whole different league. But if you'd really trade him straight up for TJ then the Shawne draft looks even worse. Plenty of us were clamoring for Rondo instead of another SF.
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  24. #49

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    You sort of ignored the real challenge. The last time I checked, yo grandma didn't play in the NBA.

    DWill > TJ but Jack > Knight
    Parker > TJ but Jack > Hill
    Nash > TJ but Jack > anybody they put at the point.
    Chauncey > TJ but Jack > ACarter
    Rajon>TJ but Jack > House
    Gilbert's not even playing so scratch that one out.
    Rose = TJ (maybe in a year he'll be better but not yet) and Jack > Hinrich

    I'm not even going to go through the rest of them because the Pacers TANDEM is better than them all with the exception of Kidd and Barea. Whether or not you think that makes them better overall is a completely different question that no one asked.
    Wow, this is truly some horrific logic. So, if another teams starter is better .... we're better off because our backup is better? I'm sorry, the starter plays 35+ minutes, and the backup will cover the rest of the ... oh ... whole 13 minutes. That's uh .... not really even, is it? Let alone suddenly pushing the whole debate in the Pacers favor.

    And how is having a 'better tandem' different than being 'better overall'?! That logic escapes me as well. You're really grasping for anything to make this go your way. I'm not seeing it at all.

    Oh, and I like TJ to be honest .... but I would have taken Derrick Rose from LAST YEAR over him. There's just something special about the guy and yes, he's clearly better than TJ right now.

    -- Steve --

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I'll admit I haven't watched many Celtics games this year. It hurts... it's like they're in a whole different league. But if you'd really trade him straight up for TJ then the Shawne draft looks even worse. Plenty of us were clamoring for Rondo instead of another SF.
    Not the same argument. At the time of that draft, we still had He Who Shall Not Be On The Bench. Complicates the discussion - doesn't necessarily make Shawne over Rondo a better decision, but adds a lot more factors.
    BillS

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