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Thread: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    This topic has been addressed in several different threads over the past week or two.

    My question is this, taking the Pacers team right now, without Dunleavy, with Rush and Roy being rookies just how talented is this team right now. Don't get into the potential of Rush & Roy - look at the players as they are right now. Name for me any teams that have less talent than the Pacers.

    What brought this to my mind right now is the game tonight with the Clippers. The Clippers have IMO a lot more talent. Baron Davis, Zach Randolph, Camby, Al Thornton, Eric Gordon - that is a better and more talented team than what we have.

    The Kings, maybe the T-Wolves, Thunder, Wiz without Gil - that is about it. I think the Bobcats have more talent, Bucks have more talent, Griz have more.

    Pacers really shouldn't win anymore than 35 games and if they do - I would say great coaching job. And let me repeat a remark I've made before - effort and coaching can keep a less talented team in games - but in order to win close games it takes talented players.

    I think we need to be aware of where this franchise is and what it has been through the past 4 seaons. I call it a talent purge - that is what has left here, JO, JT, Ronnie, Jax, Al......that is a lot to leave without too much to show for it
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-19-2008 at 02:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    You hit it right on the head, there. But I think this team has talent. And I don't just mean Danny Granger.

    T.J. Ford has been a great help, and has been putting up good numbers here and there. Marquis has been that player that has been an effective scorer. We have Troy Murphy that is just a beast on the boards.

    I can go on, this team has talent, it just hasn't been where we've expected.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I don't know that we are bottom 5 in terms of talent, would have to go through every team and really think about that one.

    We have what I call very solid players. Ford, Jack, Marquis, Rasho, Jeff and Troy all have some experience and will give us some good minutes. If we get Dunleavy back he will give us some help talent wise on offense but we really need another talent like Danny Granger to get us to that next level.

    I think we should win over 30 games this year. It won't be easy and this team has gone through some tough games this year but they have shown that they can play at a high level.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I don't think that the Grizzles or Bobcats have more talent. I think you could argue that looking across the board the Pacers have more talent than the Heat or Knicks. It's pretty close though.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I think Pacers are more talented than the Raps.

    Ford > Calderon
    Quis > Parker
    Granger > Bragnani
    Murphy < Bosh
    Rasho < JO

    Bench (players that Matter):
    Jack = Kapono
    Rush > Joey Graham
    Foster > Humpries
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    JT
    Wait a sec, Buck just admitted that Jamaal Tinsley is talented?!

    :faint:
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    If you just average our talent out, I think we do pretty well as we have quite a few really solid players. Our problem is that we only have one very good-to-great starter (Granger). That wont come close to getting the job done.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Wait a sec, Buck just admitted that Jamaal Tinsley is talented?!

    :faint:
    JT is very talented. He just doesnt have the heart to play ball. Reggie Miller used to tell him that if he managed to keep his head into the game he would be a top 5 PG in the league
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I call it a talent purge - that is what has left here, JO, JT, Ronnie, Jax, Al......that is a lot to leave without too much to show for it
    Really disagree with this statement. Only JO is more talented than whoever you name of the Pacers big men, and since we are talking about right now even that's questionable. For sure JO isn't better than Foster for the way we play now.


    Murphy < Al
    Daniels = Jax
    Granger = Ron
    Ford < JT
    JO < Foster or Rasho.

  10. #10
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Talent will only get you so far. Most Important the Pacers need to gel as a team. The season is young the Colts were 3-4 @ one point this season and are currently on an eight game win streak. If we can put some W's together we could sneak in the playoffs. We might have a chance of knocking off Detroit/Orlando/Atlanta. Boston & Cleveland are just superior to us right now and will be all season.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Wait a sec, Buck just admitted that Jamaal Tinsley is talented?!

    :faint:
    JT is talented. I mean he has NBA point guard talent. (but the poiint is we lost him for nothing in return - of course it is probably addition by subtraction, but we still lost a talented player in the transaction) So that was a net minus on the talent scale

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    This topic has been addressed in several different threads over the past week or two.

    My question is this, taking the Pacers team right now, without Dunleavy, with Rush and Roy being rookies just how talented is this team right now. Don't get into the potential of Rush & Roy - look at the players as they are right now. Name for me any teams that have less talent than the Pacers.

    What brought this to my mind right now is the game tonight with the Clippers. The Clippers have IMO a lot more talent. Baron Davis, Zach Randolph, Camby, Al Thornton, Eric Gordon - that is a better and more talented team than what we have.

    The Kings, maybe the T-Wolves, Thunder, Wiz without Gil - that is about it. I think the Bobcats have more talent, Bucks have more talent, Griz have more.

    Pacers really shouldn't win anymore than 35 games and if they do - I would say great coaching job. And let me repeat a remark I've made before - effort and coaching can keep a less talented team in games - but in order to win close games it takes talented players.

    I think we need to be aware of where this franchise is and what it has been through the past 4 seaons. I call it a talent purge - that is what has left here, JO, JT, Ronnie, Jax, Al......that is a lot to leave without too much to show for it
    That's tough to gauge relative to the entire league without taking the time to really study it. I would guestimate us around the cut off between the middle third and bottom third of the league give or take a little bit.

    I think this is a very intersting game in that the Clips are traditionally seen as a beatable team and their record isn't too great so far this season, but they have the pieces to be very tough overall if they can play together and have some good development in the area of intangibles.

    A win tonight I think would actually be fairly impressive precisely due to the talent level of opponent that you point out. This is not a gimmie or one we should expect to win. However a victory would be important to our team psyche.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I didn't even mention Peja leaving for nothing

  14. #14

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    We were able to sign-and-trade for Al with the exception we got after trading Peja.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I'd say we're in the bottom half at this point but not necessarily in the bottom 5.

    Even at that, if we added a strong post-up hard-finishing PF would we suddenly be surprised at the talent on the team? Is it that we have little talent or is it that the talent we have is not completely complementary?
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Less talented teams than the Pacers (8):

    New Jersey
    Washington (-Arenas)
    Charlotte
    Memphis
    OKC
    Minnesota
    Golden State
    Sacramento

    Teams on par with the Pacers (6):

    Toronto
    New York
    Chicago
    Milwaukee
    Miami
    LA Clippers

    I don't feel like explaining every choice. That's just a first blush impression of who we should be better than and who we should be competitive with. This places us firmly in the bottom half of the league talent wise, even if you think we're better than all of my 'on par' teams.

    The interesting question to me is, if and when Dunleavy comes back, does he make us demonstrably more talented than the teams on my second list? I like Dun a lot, but I don't quite know how to answer that question.

    What's more, I firmly believe that once Dun gets back, this year's team is more talented than last year's. The fact that we made a playoff push with Diener and Murray as our PG's is all I need to know that O'Brien is a good coach.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoddage View Post
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    We were able to sign-and-trade for Al with the exception we got after trading Peja.
    And a #11 pick.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Quis View Post
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    If you just average our talent out, I think we do pretty well as we have quite a few really solid players. Our problem is that we only have one very good-to-great starter (Granger). That wont come close to getting the job done.
    I kept writing and re-writing responses, but Quis basically summed it up, to me. I think we ARE in the bottom five talent-wise. We have almost an entire roster of mediocre, but amenable to being coached, players. NO glaring weaknesses. No overt strengths. (Danny and TJ excluded.) We're kinf of a blank slate.

    I think of teams less talented than us like the Kings (Too raw, with wierd age disparities from starters to bench guys), OKLA (Self explanatory), Miami (Are they a little like us? Just sub Wade and Marion for TJ and Granger as impact players.)..Bobcats...Minnesota..Washington and I see a collection of players.

    At least with us, I see the pieces in place. We just need to plop that one superstar in training in the midst. We need to pluck another Jermaine off someone's bench. Or draft another Reggie Or Kellogg. I thin our table is set. We have players with pretty clearly defined abilities. We just need a stud (other than Danny) to build them around.

    I'm of the same mindset as Bill S. Insert a powerful PF presence and I think this team really takes off. I haven't sweated this season becasue I see the pieces in place. I think a lot is contingent on Roy's development and us getting a bruiser of some type. Not that he's a bruiser, but I wonder how an Amir Johnson type would perk this squad up.

    I personally hpe we don't win too much. That would set the table for TPTB to not have as strong a sense of urgency on making further deals.

    Let's create a well rounded squad of coachable players, showcase everone...and wait to triger that truly a deal for that truly complimentary player who'll help bump us to the next level.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    Let's create a well rounded squad of coachable players, showcase everone...and wait to triger that truly a deal for that truly complimentary player who'll help bump us to the next level.
    The Boston strategy.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    No way are we that high if we have to think of Rush and Hibbert as rookies making a difficult transition. Bottom-five is too generous.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Pacers have a better record than 7 other teams in the league, so they are not bottom
    five. The Pacer's record is who they are and that is not very good and a lottery team.
    With Dunleavy healthy they would be in the playoffs. But he is not thus you see the results.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    Pacers have a better record than 7 other teams in the league, so they are not bottom
    five. The Pacer's record is who they are and that is not very good and a lottery team.
    With Dunleavy healthy they would be in the playoffs. But he is not thus you see the results.
    Considering the Pacers have had one of the most difficult schedules in the league...they are playing at a level that is closer to average than the bottom of the league.

    Maybe they do have a low talent level and maybe they do overachieve a little, but I think that view comes more from watching a bunch of sour puss players over the last 4 years. We are simply not used to watching all the players give 100% effort. They are probably lower on the talent scale than all but 7 or 8 teams would be my guess.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I just don't see us in the bottom five. To base it off of talent we have to look at our injured guys as well and envision them as healthy. Our PG's are not bottom five talent, when Dun is there our 2 guard spot is not lower talented, put Danny at the three and there's no question, put Murph in the four and he's not a bottom feeder but he is not an all-star either. Add Rasho at the 5 spot and he's in the mid pack of centers in the league. Our bench is a bit of a different story. We are a bit thin in the bench, but as our rooks get more experienced the bench talent level will rise by the end of the season.

    Add to the fact that these guys are new to each other for the most part and they just need time to gel. I have already chalked up this year as the year to get them to gel and come together as a team. So that is not really a talent issue, but more a team issue.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    I think Pacers are more talented than the Raps.

    Ford > Calderon
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffg-body View Post
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    Our PG's are not bottom five talent,
    Bottom ten then? Somewhere around there - certainly not in the top 15.

    when Dun is there our 2 guard spot is not lower talented,
    Since when do we like Dunn at SG? I like Dunleavy as a player, but I cringe when he's playing SG.

    put Danny at the three and there's no question,
    He's top-15, and maybe top-10, and he's improving. Have two top-15 SFs is not the greatest of rebuilding strategies, unless one of these guys will be happy as the sixth man next year when Rush is ready to be a full-time starter (hopefully Dunleavy welcomes that role.)

    put Murph in the four and he's not a bottom feeder but he is not an all-star either.
    He might be top-twenty. But probably not. He might be between 20 and 25, but only under Jim O'Brien. I don't think there are many coaches in the NBA that would start Murphy.

    Add Rasho at the 5 spot and he's in the mid pack of centers in the league.
    Now, I like the idea of having Rasho around to teach Roy. Rasho has fundamentals and a head for the game, and he plays the right way. But he was barely a top-15 center in his prime.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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