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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    This topic has been addressed in several different threads over the past week or two.

    My question is this, taking the Pacers team right now, without Dunleavy, with Rush and Roy being rookies just how talented is this team right now. Don't get into the potential of Rush & Roy - look at the players as they are right now. Name for me any teams that have less talent than the Pacers.

    What brought this to my mind right now is the game tonight with the Clippers. The Clippers have IMO a lot more talent. Baron Davis, Zach Randolph, Camby, Al Thornton, Eric Gordon - that is a better and more talented team than what we have.

    The Kings, maybe the T-Wolves, Thunder, Wiz without Gil - that is about it. I think the Bobcats have more talent, Bucks have more talent, Griz have more.

    Pacers really shouldn't win anymore than 35 games and if they do - I would say great coaching job. And let me repeat a remark I've made before - effort and coaching can keep a less talented team in games - but in order to win close games it takes talented players.

    I think we need to be aware of where this franchise is and what it has been through the past 4 seaons. I call it a talent purge - that is what has left here, JO, JT, Ronnie, Jax, Al......that is a lot to leave without too much to show for it
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-19-2008 at 01:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    You hit it right on the head, there. But I think this team has talent. And I don't just mean Danny Granger.

    T.J. Ford has been a great help, and has been putting up good numbers here and there. Marquis has been that player that has been an effective scorer. We have Troy Murphy that is just a beast on the boards.

    I can go on, this team has talent, it just hasn't been where we've expected.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I don't know that we are bottom 5 in terms of talent, would have to go through every team and really think about that one.

    We have what I call very solid players. Ford, Jack, Marquis, Rasho, Jeff and Troy all have some experience and will give us some good minutes. If we get Dunleavy back he will give us some help talent wise on offense but we really need another talent like Danny Granger to get us to that next level.

    I think we should win over 30 games this year. It won't be easy and this team has gone through some tough games this year but they have shown that they can play at a high level.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I don't think that the Grizzles or Bobcats have more talent. I think you could argue that looking across the board the Pacers have more talent than the Heat or Knicks. It's pretty close though.

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    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Talent will only get you so far. Most Important the Pacers need to gel as a team. The season is young the Colts were 3-4 @ one point this season and are currently on an eight game win streak. If we can put some W's together we could sneak in the playoffs. We might have a chance of knocking off Detroit/Orlando/Atlanta. Boston & Cleveland are just superior to us right now and will be all season.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Talent will only get you so far. Most Important the Pacers need to gel as a team. The season is young the Colts were 3-4 @ one point this season and are currently on an eight game win streak. If we can put some W's together we could sneak in the playoffs. We might have a chance of knocking off Detroit/Orlando/Atlanta. Boston & Cleveland are just superior to us right now and will be all season.
    Please don't use the Colts as a reference for what the Pacers can do. 2 completely different situations, and this thread just shows off that point. Pacers are in the bottom 5 in the league arguably in talent. Certainly in the bottom 10. The Colts are on the opposite end of that argument, probably the top 5 in the NFL, and they also have arguably the best (and hottest) player at the most important position in the game (QB).

    I see no Pacer player being anywhere near the best player at his own position, let alone one that is nearly as important as the QB is to football. I see one guy who could be top 5 in his position (Granger) and a bunch of guys who wouldn't even start on a lot of other teams.

    That was just a bad, bad point to try to make.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    Please don't use the Colts as a reference for what the Pacers can do. 2 completely different situations, and this thread just shows off that point. Pacers are in the bottom 5 in the league arguably in talent. Certainly in the bottom 10. The Colts are on the opposite end of that argument, probably the top 5 in the NFL, and they also have arguably the best (and hottest) player at the most important position in the game (QB).

    I see no Pacer player being anywhere near the best player at his own position, let alone one that is nearly as important as the QB is to football. I see one guy who could be top 5 in his position (Granger) and a bunch of guys who wouldn't even start on a lot of other teams.

    That was just a bad, bad point to try to make.

    -- Steve --
    The Colts have UDFAs that come in and play all the time. They send first, second, and sixth round draft picks to the Pro Bowl. The argument is always there for Manning being one of the best ever. It is kinda like having a Jordan or a Shaq in basketball. They don't come around everyday. If you analyze the Colts though Manning can't win the games by himself. Having possibly the best QB of all time can't win you the SB(Marino.) Or maybe the best SG behind Jordan, Reggie. If you look at the Pacers of old what players could you put in the top 5 at their position? Maybe Reggie, and Mark Jackson? I'm struggling to think of anyone else...We need only one player to build around. We have something special with Granger, and alot of talent around him IMO. Give it time...
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 12-21-2008 at 02:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Oh and another thing. Everytime I get a chance to catch a game, I never feel like the other team has so much more "talent" than we do. I feel like we have been playing well this year given the hardest schedule in the NBA. Only in the low post have we been dominated. I like starting Hibbert. If he can get 5 blocks again and again I'll feel alot more confident in the future. We will see where we are after February and have a better idea...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    The Colts have UDFAs that come in and play all the time. They send first, second, and sixth round draft picks to the Pro Bowl. The argument is always there for Manning being one of the best ever. It is kinda like having a Jordan or a Shaq in basketball. They don't come around everyday. If you analyze the Colts though Manning can't win the games by himself. Having possibly the best QB of all time can't win you the SB(Marino.) Or maybe the best SG behind Jordan, Reggie. If you look at the Pacers of old what players could you put in the top 5 at their position? Maybe Reggie, and Mark Jackson? I'm struggling to think of anyone else...We need only one player to build around. We have something special with Granger, and alot of talent around him IMO. Give it time...

    It's the NFL. Every team sends first, second, and sixth round picks out on the field and to the Pro Bowl. *cough*Tom Brady*cough* That does not make the relevance any better.

    Point is, at their positions Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, Wayne, Clark, Manning, and Saturday are all at, or near the top of the heap when it comes to how good they are at their job. You can focus on Manning all day like you just did, but you contradicted yourself. You're right, Manning CAN'T win all by himself. He has a CAST of talented players. Something the Pacers do not have.

    Exactly the point I was trying to make, and you're agreeing with it, but still trying to make a debate contrary. I don't know how that can work, honestly.

    -- Steve --

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I think Pacers are more talented than the Raps.

    Ford > Calderon
    Quis > Parker
    Granger > Bragnani
    Murphy < Bosh
    Rasho < JO

    Bench (players that Matter):
    Jack = Kapono
    Rush > Joey Graham
    Foster > Humpries
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    I think Pacers are more talented than the Raps.

    Ford > Calderon
    the entire Raptors organization disagrees
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    JT
    Wait a sec, Buck just admitted that Jamaal Tinsley is talented?!

    :faint:
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    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Wait a sec, Buck just admitted that Jamaal Tinsley is talented?!

    :faint:
    JT is very talented. He just doesnt have the heart to play ball. Reggie Miller used to tell him that if he managed to keep his head into the game he would be a top 5 PG in the league
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  14. #14
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Wait a sec, Buck just admitted that Jamaal Tinsley is talented?!

    :faint:
    JT is talented. I mean he has NBA point guard talent. (but the poiint is we lost him for nothing in return - of course it is probably addition by subtraction, but we still lost a talented player in the transaction) So that was a net minus on the talent scale

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    If you just average our talent out, I think we do pretty well as we have quite a few really solid players. Our problem is that we only have one very good-to-great starter (Granger). That wont come close to getting the job done.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Quis View Post
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    If you just average our talent out, I think we do pretty well as we have quite a few really solid players. Our problem is that we only have one very good-to-great starter (Granger). That wont come close to getting the job done.
    I kept writing and re-writing responses, but Quis basically summed it up, to me. I think we ARE in the bottom five talent-wise. We have almost an entire roster of mediocre, but amenable to being coached, players. NO glaring weaknesses. No overt strengths. (Danny and TJ excluded.) We're kinf of a blank slate.

    I think of teams less talented than us like the Kings (Too raw, with wierd age disparities from starters to bench guys), OKLA (Self explanatory), Miami (Are they a little like us? Just sub Wade and Marion for TJ and Granger as impact players.)..Bobcats...Minnesota..Washington and I see a collection of players.

    At least with us, I see the pieces in place. We just need to plop that one superstar in training in the midst. We need to pluck another Jermaine off someone's bench. Or draft another Reggie Or Kellogg. I thin our table is set. We have players with pretty clearly defined abilities. We just need a stud (other than Danny) to build them around.

    I'm of the same mindset as Bill S. Insert a powerful PF presence and I think this team really takes off. I haven't sweated this season becasue I see the pieces in place. I think a lot is contingent on Roy's development and us getting a bruiser of some type. Not that he's a bruiser, but I wonder how an Amir Johnson type would perk this squad up.

    I personally hpe we don't win too much. That would set the table for TPTB to not have as strong a sense of urgency on making further deals.

    Let's create a well rounded squad of coachable players, showcase everone...and wait to triger that truly a deal for that truly complimentary player who'll help bump us to the next level.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    Let's create a well rounded squad of coachable players, showcase everone...and wait to triger that truly a deal for that truly complimentary player who'll help bump us to the next level.
    The Boston strategy.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I call it a talent purge - that is what has left here, JO, JT, Ronnie, Jax, Al......that is a lot to leave without too much to show for it
    Really disagree with this statement. Only JO is more talented than whoever you name of the Pacers big men, and since we are talking about right now even that's questionable. For sure JO isn't better than Foster for the way we play now.


    Murphy < Al
    Daniels = Jax
    Granger = Ron
    Ford < JT
    JO < Foster or Rasho.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    This topic has been addressed in several different threads over the past week or two.

    My question is this, taking the Pacers team right now, without Dunleavy, with Rush and Roy being rookies just how talented is this team right now. Don't get into the potential of Rush & Roy - look at the players as they are right now. Name for me any teams that have less talent than the Pacers.

    What brought this to my mind right now is the game tonight with the Clippers. The Clippers have IMO a lot more talent. Baron Davis, Zach Randolph, Camby, Al Thornton, Eric Gordon - that is a better and more talented team than what we have.

    The Kings, maybe the T-Wolves, Thunder, Wiz without Gil - that is about it. I think the Bobcats have more talent, Bucks have more talent, Griz have more.

    Pacers really shouldn't win anymore than 35 games and if they do - I would say great coaching job. And let me repeat a remark I've made before - effort and coaching can keep a less talented team in games - but in order to win close games it takes talented players.

    I think we need to be aware of where this franchise is and what it has been through the past 4 seaons. I call it a talent purge - that is what has left here, JO, JT, Ronnie, Jax, Al......that is a lot to leave without too much to show for it
    That's tough to gauge relative to the entire league without taking the time to really study it. I would guestimate us around the cut off between the middle third and bottom third of the league give or take a little bit.

    I think this is a very intersting game in that the Clips are traditionally seen as a beatable team and their record isn't too great so far this season, but they have the pieces to be very tough overall if they can play together and have some good development in the area of intangibles.

    A win tonight I think would actually be fairly impressive precisely due to the talent level of opponent that you point out. This is not a gimmie or one we should expect to win. However a victory would be important to our team psyche.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I didn't even mention Peja leaving for nothing

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    We were able to sign-and-trade for Al with the exception we got after trading Peja.

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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoddage View Post
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    We were able to sign-and-trade for Al with the exception we got after trading Peja.
    And a #11 pick.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    I'd say we're in the bottom half at this point but not necessarily in the bottom 5.

    Even at that, if we added a strong post-up hard-finishing PF would we suddenly be surprised at the talent on the team? Is it that we have little talent or is it that the talent we have is not completely complementary?
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    Less talented teams than the Pacers (8):

    New Jersey
    Washington (-Arenas)
    Charlotte
    Memphis
    OKC
    Minnesota
    Golden State
    Sacramento

    Teams on par with the Pacers (6):

    Toronto
    New York
    Chicago
    Milwaukee
    Miami
    LA Clippers

    I don't feel like explaining every choice. That's just a first blush impression of who we should be better than and who we should be competitive with. This places us firmly in the bottom half of the league talent wise, even if you think we're better than all of my 'on par' teams.

    The interesting question to me is, if and when Dunleavy comes back, does he make us demonstrably more talented than the teams on my second list? I like Dun a lot, but I don't quite know how to answer that question.

    What's more, I firmly believe that once Dun gets back, this year's team is more talented than last year's. The fact that we made a playoff push with Diener and Murray as our PG's is all I need to know that O'Brien is a good coach.
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    Default Re: Pacers talent level is in the bottom 5 right now

    No way are we that high if we have to think of Rush and Hibbert as rookies making a difficult transition. Bottom-five is too generous.
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