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Thread: When did Reggie become a great closer?

  1. #1
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Seeing that so much discussion lately revolves around wanting a player to make things happen for us at the end of games, I wanted to ask when exactly Reggie developed into this role—to see if any of our current players could grow into that kind of player.

    Was Reggie always Mister Clutch from UCLA onward?

    Was he clutch at UCLA, waiting in the wings for a few years, then came into his own as a Pacer? If so, how long did it take?

    I see two of our players who could potentially grow into this role: Ford and Granger. Does either have a track record in college of taking over games or scoring big baskets at the end?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Well Reggie didn't have the three point line in college until his senior year. But I remember a long three against Notre Dame that year to put UCLA ahead late, and I also remember that he scored 33 points in the second half against Louisville in the NCAA tournament. So I'd say that he was already working on his "Mr. Clutch" pedigree at UCLA.

    Jury is still out on Ford and Granger though.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    I remember him just killing IU in the 1985 NIT finals.

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Though I don't remember this when it happened, it's been reported that Person and other Pacers used to tease Reggie by calling him "Mister First Quarter." Evidently as a young NBA players, he was a stat maker early in games and got timid late.

    I know this is hard to imagine because of the length of his tenure in the NBA and the fact that his later deeds were so great that they outshined any reputation or event before them.

    Evidently he didn't develop the reputation as a closer until the heroics we all recall in the various 90's playoff series.

    Another thing that happened to Reggie was his transformation from big-mouthed, s*** talking braggart into the well respected and revered class act that retired.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    IMHO, Reggie was not a great closer but was a great shooter that required set plays to be run for him. He could not create his own shot.

    He was a typical shooter and was sure every shot was going in. He was the most reliable scorer we had and loved the role he played.

    I am not dissing Reggie, just saying he was not, in my estimation, a great closer but was a clutch shooter.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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    Get well PG! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck View Post
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    IMHO, Reggie was not a great closer but was a great shooter that required set plays to be run for him. He could not create his own shot.

    He was a typical shooter and was sure every shot was going in. He was the most reliable scorer we had and loved the role he played.

    I am not dissing Reggie, just saying he was not, in my estimation, a great closer but was a clutch shooter.

    So, how would you define a great closer? I'd say that you are a great closer if you hit when it counts, regardless of how you get the shots. Reggie wasn't likely to take you off the dribble, but there are few I would take over him down the stretch. Remember, not only were the screens set for Reggie, but he also had the reputation of being a great player moving without the ball. He knew how to get himself free for shots by manipulating the screens in a way that you rarely see today, except for maybe Rip Hamilton.
    Last edited by QuickRelease; 11-24-2008 at 08:07 AM.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    August 24, 1965.
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    So, how would you define a great closer? I'd say that you are a great closer if you hit when it counts, regardless of how you get the shots. Reggie wasn't likely to take you off the dribble, but there are few I would take over him down the stretch. Remember, not only were the screens set for Reggie, but he also had the reputation of being a great player moving without the ball. He knew how to get himself free for shots by manipulating the screens in a way that you rarely see today, except for maybe Rip Hamilton.
    Remember, the question was not a closer but a "great" closer. There were very few great closers, Jordan being the best. Everyone remembers the shots Reggie hit but very few remember the ones he missed and there were more missed than made.

    No disrespect but the term "great" should be saved for the very best.

    Just my opinion.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    1993

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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Killer Instinct is something you are born with.

  11. #11

    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    This whole debate over who is "clutch" and who isn't is so bizarre. The sample size of game-winning shots is so small.

    The best take I ever heard was Peyton after the 2006 AFC Championship game. Somebody asked something along the lines of whether that game had transformed him from someone who wasn't clutch to someone who was. Peyton's answer was roughly "If New England returns the last kickoff for a touchdown and we lose, does that suddenly make me not clutch again? Am I the same loser I've always been?"

    It was such a great answer because actually winning or losing a game has so much more to do with one shot or one play.

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    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    This whole debate over who is "clutch" and who isn't is so bizarre. The sample size of game-winning shots is so small.

    The best take I ever heard was Peyton after the 2006 AFC Championship game. Somebody asked something along the lines of whether that game had transformed him from someone who wasn't clutch to someone who was. Peyton's answer was roughly "If New England returns the last kickoff for a touchdown and we lose, does that suddenly make me not clutch again? Am I the same loser I've always been?"

    It was such a great answer because actually winning or losing a game has so much more to do with one shot or one play.
    clutch is more than scoring the last basket of the game.

    Clutch is being in the playoffs and scoring 22 in the fourth quarter to make sure your team doesnt lose. Clutch is knowing your shot is going in even though you have 2 defenders in your face with 2 seconds left.

  13. #13

    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    No no, don't get me wrong, I know Reggie was great at the end of games and was one of the best fourth quarter players ever, I'm not doubting that at all.

    I just find the discussion of who is clutch and who isn't says a lot more about the commenter than the player, the way the label "clutch" is used to downgrade some players and aggrandize others.

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    Get well PG! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck View Post
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    Remember, the question was not a closer but a "great" closer. There were very few great closers, Jordan being the best. Everyone remembers the shots Reggie hit but very few remember the ones he missed and there were more missed than made.

    No disrespect but the term "great" should be saved for the very best.

    Just my opinion.

    I agree wholeheartedly that the term 'GREAT' should be used in a very limited sense. And I guess I'm not really arguing that it should be used for Reggie. But if he wasn't great, Reggie was very, very good. Of course Reggie missed alot. I won't argue that. But I remember a quote from Jordan that said, "I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." Reggie Miller putting a ball in the air with the clock running down made EVERYONE hold their breath.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    I've gotten some thoughts on Reggie: always has been an end of the game great player--others say he grew into it around 93-94.

    But I still haven't gotten much of an opinion on the more relevant question: is it possible one of the guys currently on our roster could grow into this type of player, or is this something more innate than learned?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I've gotten some thoughts on Reggie: always has been an end of the game great player--others say he grew into it around 93-94.

    But I still haven't gotten much of an opinion on the more relevant question: is it possible one of the guys currently on our roster could grow into this type of player, or is this something more innate than learned?
    Granger could definitely be that type of player, he just needs the opportunities to show it. We won't know for sure until we get into the playoffs. TJ isn't scared of taking that last shot either.

    Neither of them have shown any lack of toughness or drive. They're the least of my worries about the Pacers.

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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    1993
    That's the right answer. Chuck was gone. And Detlef was given the chance and didn't really seize it.
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I've gotten some thoughts on Reggie: always has been an end of the game great player--others say he grew into it around 93-94.

    But I still haven't gotten much of an opinion on the more relevant question: is it possible one of the guys currently on our roster could grow into this type of player, or is this something more innate than learned?
    I think Brandon Rush could be very good in 3-4 years. He has size, athletic ability to go to the basket and a good outside shot.

    All he needs is experience and time takes care of that.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I've gotten some thoughts on Reggie: always has been an end of the game great player--others say he grew into it around 93-94.

    But I still haven't gotten much of an opinion on the more relevant question: is it possible one of the guys currently on our roster could grow into this type of player, or is this something more innate than learned?

    I think Granger could. Remember how he was playing after he got his teeth knocked out? He was all over the place. He had to much adrenalin though because he couldn't hit anything.

    I've wondered why we don't run him or someone else off screens like we did Reggie, that at least gives us a shot at the end.

  20. #20
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I've wondered why we don't run him or someone else off screens like we did Reggie, that at least gives us a shot at the end.
    Well, first you have to decide to USE the screen rather than bounce off of it or pass it too far away to brush off your man.
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  21. #21
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Right after he hired Brenda Lee Johnson.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    As the biggest Det fan around I will easily concede that he just didn't take to the role of closer for whatever reason.

    HOWEVER, it's not like Reggie took it over right away himself. How clutch could a guy be when the team was getting destroyed in first round playoff series?

    They had ONE good playoff series with Reggie and that was when PERSON went off vs Bird. Reggie had a great 4 along with Chuck, but that was Chuck's team to close out if he could.

    More importantly when they finally did get over the hump who did they beat and who hit that shot....

    that's right BYRON SCOTT beat the Magic. And they brought Scott in for a reason. You don't hire a guy like that if you've got Reggie going 8 in 8.9 every other day.

    It probably wasn't till that Knicks series that he really took over as the "get me the ball to win this thing" guy.

    And sure his rep lived on past his ability to make good on those moments, especially that final year, but for about 8-10 years I'd bet his made to missed ratio for CLOSER shots was pretty damn high.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Well, first you have to decide to USE the screen rather than bounce off of it or pass it too far away to brush off your man.
    Unfortunately too true. But you've got to admit that Danny's off-dribble game and going to the rim in traffic game is ridiculously better than it was last year even.

    Danny blew the Miami game with 2 horrible TO's that led directly to Miami dunks. But the time is getting closer when he won't fumble the ball there and instead he's going to finish going to the rim instead. That will probably be his final big step forward and won't happen till later this year or even into next season.


    BTW, I agree that Rush has similar capabilities. He's a kid who's shot just looks really close, his form isn't off and he can go hard or get the shot up quick. A little repetition and off-season work will have him just a bit behind Danny for that kind of scoring. He looks to be filling the void left by Shawne (well, Shawne's attitude is more like it).

    I disagree more on Ford. He tends to take really difficult shots and I think at the end of games you just can't count on those.

  24. #24

    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Reggie became much better at creating his own shots in isolation plays his later years.

    I love what he did to Lindsey Hunter in the 04 or 05 playoffs (I forget).

  25. #25
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: When did Reggie become a great closer?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    Reggie Miller putting a ball in the air with the clock running down made EVERYONE hold their breath.

    I remember several pictures of Reggie taking a last shot against other teams in their building and the crowd is ALWAYS standing, and people are holding their head and doing all sorts of things showing that they did not want him shooting. I think he was feared more than Jordan if there was just a second left on the clock.

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