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Thread: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

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    Default Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Pacers Granger loses 1 chore

    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com
    http://www.indystar.com/article/2008.../1088/SPORTS04

    Indiana Pacers swingman Danny Granger spent the first few years of his career chasing the opposing team's best perimeter scorer.

    Trying to defend stars such as LeBron James and Kobe Bryant affected Granger's offense. Or vice versa. Sometimes he struggled defensively if he focused too much on offense.

    That hasn't been a concern this season.

    Marquis Daniels is guarding the opponent's best perimeter player at the start of each game, which means Granger doesn't have to exert as much energy on both ends of the court.

    "It definitely helps a lot," Granger said. "I don't get tired as much as I used to. It's a hard job chasing those guys around. I still end up defending them at some point in the game."

    Granger's scoring has taken off since some of the defensive load has been lightened. He has scored at least 30 points three times in his nine appearances, including 34 on Tuesday against the Hawks, and he's averaging a career-high 24.3 points.

    "I don't want to have Danny get totally worn out playing guys like that," Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said. "Danny might be on them down the stretch. I think when you play guys like that, you have to alternate guys on them. Also, Danny is responsible for a lot of our scoring. I don't want to take his legs out of it."

    Rookie Brandon Rush and point guard Jarrett Jack also take their shot at slowing opposing scorers. Granger, the Pacers' best perimeter defender the past couple of seasons, attempts to play the role of defensive stopper during spurts.

    "They have to do it at a high level if you're going to have four people," O'Brien said.

    More points, Murph

    Forward Troy Murphy could end up averaging a career high in rebounds if he continues to attack the glass the way he has lately.

    Murphy got his fifth double-double of the season Tuesday against Atlanta: 10 points and 19 rebounds. The 19 boards were three shy of his career high, which came during the 2002-03 season.

    O'Brien, however, wants more scoring.

    "We're trying to get a couple of more dimensions out of Murph," O'Brien said. "He's been rebounding like crazy, but we want to utilize his offensive skills. Passing more, his ability to go down low and ability to space the court."

    Murphy is averaging 9.7 points on 42 percent shooting. He said he got too complacent on offense the past couple of seasons because he would mainly float around the 3-point line.

    "I've fallen into the trap the last couple of years because we had an inside presence with Jermaine (O'Neal). A lot of times my position was to be out on the perimeter," Murphy said. "This season with him not being here, we run more of an open offense and it gives me an opportunity to get down (in the post), and I have to take advantage of it."

    A defensive machine

    Their season is just 10 games old, but the Pacers are showing signs of turning the corner defensively.

    The Pacers are tied with Cleveland for third in the league in field goal defense at 42.3 percent. The only teams ahead of them are Boston and the Lakers, who played in the NBA Finals last season.

    Teams shot 46 percent against the Pacers last season.

    Additional Facts
    Magic at Pacers
    7 p.m. Friday, Fox Sports Indiana
    Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 11-20-2008 at 11:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    As for the first article, I'm concerned that we will lose this when Dunleavy comes back into the starting lineup. I don't see Jr. guarding the LBJ's and Kobe's of the league, let alone anyone else.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    This is why I hope Brandon can become a solid starting guard for us. He could hypothetically become our best defender, and take a lot of weight off of Danny.

    That would be a pretty sweet wing duo, defensively.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Maybe Dunleavy really is better for coming off the bench as offensive punch.

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    The more I watch us get out to big leads, the more I think it would be nice to see how Dunleavy works as a 6th man when he comes back, in effect "easing" him back in. We could really keep pressure on teams in the 1st half. And we know it's about finishing games anyway, which Dun Dun would be doing, and Danny would be guarding the best wing man

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Maybe Dunleavy really is better for coming off the bench as offensive punch.
    I'm beginning to think like this as well.

    Dunleavy will still get his share of 34 mpg....but I would hope that the majority of his playing time will be paired with the likes of Marquis/Jack/BRush at the SG spot and a minimum amount of time spent on the court with Granger.

    But I suspect that unless we play some more Small Ball where Granger or Dunleavy is playing some backup PF minutes and the other is shifted to the SF spot.....I'm guessing that BRush will likely get less minute when Dunleavy returns where BRush he will be playing behind Marquis in the SG rotation.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    This is why I hope Brandon can become a solid starting guard for us. He could hypothetically become our best defender, and take a lot of weight off of Danny.

    That would be a pretty sweet wing duo, defensively.
    If Roy and Rush can take over for Quis and Rasho next year, that obviously keeps the Pacers salary flexibility, but we'd take some hits in W's.

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Pacers Granger loses 1 chore

    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com
    http://www.indystar.com/article/2008.../1088/SPORTS04

    Indiana Pacers swingman Danny Granger spent the first few years of his career chasing the opposing team's best perimeter scorer.

    Trying to defend stars such as LeBron James and Kobe Bryant affected Granger's offense. Or vice versa. Sometimes he struggled defensively if he focused too much on offense.

    That hasn't been a concern this season.

    Marquis Daniels is guarding the opponent's best perimeter player at the start of each game, which means Granger doesn't have to exert as much energy on both ends of the court.

    "It definitely helps a lot," Granger said. "I don't get tired as much as I used to. It's a hard job chasing those guys around. I still end up defending them at some point in the game."

    Granger's scoring has taken off since some of the defensive load has been lightened. He has scored at least 30 points three times in his nine appearances, including 34 on Tuesday against the Hawks, and he's averaging a career-high 24.3 points.

    "I don't want to have Danny get totally worn out playing guys like that," Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said. "Danny might be on them down the stretch. I think when you play guys like that, you have to alternate guys on them. Also, Danny is responsible for a lot of our scoring. I don't want to take his legs out of it."

    Rookie Brandon Rush and point guard Jarrett Jack also take their shot at slowing opposing scorers. Granger, the Pacers' best perimeter defender the past couple of seasons, attempts to play the role of defensive stopper during spurts.

    "They have to do it at a high level if you're going to have four people," O'Brien said.

    More points, Murph

    Forward Troy Murphy could end up averaging a career high in rebounds if he continues to attack the glass the way he has lately.

    Murphy got his fifth double-double of the season Tuesday against Atlanta: 10 points and 19 rebounds. The 19 boards were three shy of his career high, which came during the 2002-03 season.

    O'Brien, however, wants more scoring.

    "We're trying to get a couple of more dimensions out of Murph," O'Brien said. "He's been rebounding like crazy, but we want to utilize his offensive skills. Passing more, his ability to go down low and ability to space the court."

    Murphy is averaging 9.7 points on 42 percent shooting. He said he got too complacent on offense the past couple of seasons because he would mainly float around the 3-point line.

    "I've fallen into the trap the last couple of years because we had an inside presence with Jermaine (O'Neal). A lot of times my position was to be out on the perimeter," Murphy said. "This season with him not being here, we run more of an open offense and it gives me an opportunity to get down (in the post), and I have to take advantage of it."

    A defensive machine

    Their season is just 10 games old, but the Pacers are showing signs of turning the corner defensively.

    The Pacers are tied with Cleveland for third in the league in field goal defense at 42.3 percent. The only teams ahead of them are Boston and the Lakers, who played in the NBA Finals last season.

    Teams shot 46 percent against the Pacers last season.

    Additional Facts
    Magic at Pacers
    7 p.m. Friday, Fox Sports Indiana
    :weep for joy: good to hear o'brien wants him to drive more. i think murphy's 3pt shooting ability is a nice weapon to have but one of the best parts of the atlanta game was seeing murphy drive more (and hopefully that will improve his craptastic FT% by getting to the line more).

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Maybe Dunleavy really is better for coming off the bench as offensive punch.
    JayRedd freaked a bit after the whole "Manu" concept was floated by a couple (including me) in a different thread. His perspective I think was that as we're not simply a piece away from a championship (like say the Spurs) it'd be ridiculous not to start someone as talented as Dunleavy. I agree with the idea that we're not a championship contender this year but I say the "Manu-like-role" thing more in terms of chemistry (mostly defensively). Dunleavy is a good team defender but a poor one-on-one defender... if he were to come off the bench and say spent more time on the floor with a backcourt combination of Jack (or BRush/Danny/Quis) instead of spending significant time with TJ (or Murphy) that just makes the most sense.

    Obviously this is all just theory as we have no idea how terrible that idea might be. Ultimately, I just think it'd be a good thing to try - especially when he first returns.
    Last edited by avoidingtheclowns; 11-20-2008 at 01:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Given that it looks like people are recognizing the need to have someone besides granger gaurd the opponents best player, bringing dunleavy off the bench may not be such a bad idea. I would still want him playing at least 30 minutes a game. This could probably erase those 2nd quarter slumps we have been dealing with.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by iPACER View Post
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    If Roy and Rush can take over for Quis and Rasho next year, that obviously keeps the Pacers salary flexibility, but we'd take some hits in W's.
    Its looking like this will be the case, in fact I would not be surprised to the see the team have a better regular season record this year than they will next year due to Hibbert/Rush adjusting to their new featured roles next season. However, I feel like both Rush and Hibbert have greater upsides than where quis and rasho are right now, so by that third year... watch out.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Regardless of who we throw at the superstars of this league.. they are still going to score 20-30 ppg. Even right now with quis guarding them and danny guarding them we are still be lit up by every team with a star.

    So to say Dun is going to bring this team down and cause it to collapse is silly. Lets give him a chance before we come to these crazy assumptions.

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Man, we have good problems these days.

    What to do with all these defenders?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    If Dunleavy returns don't hand him over the starting spot right away. Daniels seems 100% healthy finally and doing a good job so far next to Granger.

    With Dunleavy paired in the 2nd unit next to 2 strong defenders Jack and Rush thid gives us more balance with Mike setting up the offense (as Jack is more an off guard instead of a playmaker).
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Defense?? is that in basketball?

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    JayRedd freaked a bit after the whole "Manu" concept was floated by a couple (including me) in a different thread. His perspective I think was that as we're not simply a piece away from a championship (like say the Spurs) it'd be ridiculous not to start someone as talented as Dunleavy. I agree with the idea that we're not a championship contender this year but I say the "Manu-like-role" thing more in terms of chemistry (mostly defensively). Dunleavy is a good team defender but a poor one-on-one defender... if he were to come off the bench and say spent more time on the floor with a backcourt combination of Jack (or BRush/Danny/Quis) instead of spending significant time with TJ (or Murphy) that just makes the most sense.
    I agree. It could be good to start off the game with someone else guarding the other team's best palyer and settle into a crunch-time lineup of Dunleavy and Granger.

    Dunleavy would still get more minutes than Quis, he just wouldn't be starting. Perhaps we're not good enough to not start someone with Dun's offensive talent but the question when he comes back is going to be, are we good enough not to start someone with Quis's defensive talent?

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    JayRedd freaked a bit after the whole "Manu" concept was floated by a couple (including me) in a different thread. His perspective I think was that as we're not simply a piece away from a championship (like say the Spurs) it'd be ridiculous not to start someone as talented as Dunleavy. I agree with the idea that we're not a championship contender this year but I say the "Manu-like-role" thing more in terms of chemistry (mostly defensively). Dunleavy is a good team defender but a poor one-on-one defender... if he were to come off the bench and say spent more time on the floor with a backcourt combination of Jack (or BRush/Danny/Quis) instead of spending significant time with TJ (or Murphy) that just makes the most sense.

    Obviously this is all just theory as we have no idea how terrible that idea might be. Ultimately, I just think it'd be a good thing to try - especially when he first returns.
    Freaked out may be a little strong.

    As I recall, I presented that counter-argument fairly calmly and rationally...but, yeah, the point stands.

    Having Dunleavy on offense also takes a lot of pressure off of Danny to score since he can be the jumpshooter and a playmaker that Marquis isn't capable of. While we obviously lean on Danny more than ever before, it's not like he's at the point where we're just giving him the ball in the final five minutes and saying "Score." He's still getting his within the offense, and his driving lanes are being occupied by sagging defenders who have no fear of Quis or TJ's jumper.

    You stick Dun out there instead of Marquis and the energy he has to exert offensively isn't as much, so it's sorta six of one, half-dozen of the other.

    And for the record, half of yall would be throwing fits if a dude like Jack or JO public stated that they were enjoying having to try less on defense. It's worth noting. The zero-sum energy paradox of offense vs. defense is real...so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him saying that -- it's true. But the perception when golden boy Danny says it is a lot different than the reactions I can recall to similar statements about Paul Pierce, AI or TMac.

    And meanwhile, Naptime, I can't recall Pippen ever saying "Yeah...I don't wanna guard Bird tonight. Sure, I'm the most capable guy on our team -- both physically and mentally to do so -- but I'm tryna keep that average up over 23 ppg, so, you know, let's let Horace chase his *** around all night."

    But aside from all that tongue-in-cheek ribbing...My only point here is that I still believe our best perimeter lineup is TJ/MDJ/Danny if they're all healthy, no matter the exact role of everyone involved.

    And I don't believe it's close.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Perhaps we're not good enough to not start someone with Dun's offensive talent but the question when he comes back is going to be, are we good enough not to start someone with Quis's defensive talent?
    "Someone with Quis' defensive talent"?

    He's been pretty good -- did real good stuff on Joe Johnson the other night, in fact.

    But come on...Quis isn't The Glove. He aint even Raja Bell. He's probably Larry Hughes -- right down to the jumper. Regardless of the exact comparison, he's certainly not "Must Start" material from a defensive standpoint at the NBA level.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    And for the record, half of yall would be throwing fits if a dude like Jack or JO public stated that they were enjoying having to try less on defense. It's worth noting. The zero-sum energy paradox of offense vs. defense is real...so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him saying that -- it's true. But the perception when golden boy Danny says it is a lot different than the reactions I can recall to similar statements about Paul Pierce, AI or TMac.
    The difference being that in his first couple of years, Danny clearly showed his willingness to make D his priority and be willing to be featured less on the more glamorous offensive side of the court.

    My guess is that fans just have more trust in Danny that these decisions are being made for the best interests of the team w/o much personal agenda mixed in.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Ya, I think Dun should come off the bench as well.. He can be our Manu Ginobili.. Weird he doesn't start, but he gives them a huge boost when he comes onto the floor. I would rather him be in there with the not as good scoring guys then have him and granger and the rest of the starting gang in there with a less effective defense.
    Last edited by Ownagedood; 11-20-2008 at 07:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Another important thing to remember is that we're not trying to keep our world-beating, uber-clutch, "take the ball and win us the game," 30-year-old SG with an injury history fresh for his fifth-straight 100-game season (plus another dozen or two Olympics/World Championships games in the summer).

    Obviously, the new info about Junior's knee needs to be factored in for likely the rest of the season -- but I'm talking about a healthy Dunleavy in principle.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Barkley named Ginobli as the best player in the NBA.

    It means nothing in terms of prestige whether you start or come in off the bench. It does matter if you finish.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Freaked out may be a little strong.

    As I recall, I presented that counter-argument fairly calmly and rationally...but, yeah, the point stands.

    Having Dunleavy on offense also takes a lot of pressure off of Danny to score since he can be the jumpshooter and a playmaker that Marquis isn't capable of. While we obviously lean on Danny more than ever before, it's not like he's at the point where we're just giving him the ball in the final five minutes and saying "Score." He's still getting his within the offense, and his driving lanes are being occupied by sagging defenders who have no fear of Quis or TJ's jumper.

    You stick Dun out there instead of Marquis and the energy he has to exert offensively isn't as much, so it's sorta six of one, half-dozen of the other.

    And for the record, half of yall would be throwing fits if a dude like Jack or JO public stated that they were enjoying having to try less on defense. It's worth noting. The zero-sum energy paradox of offense vs. defense is real...so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him saying that -- it's true. But the perception when golden boy Danny says it is a lot different than the reactions I can recall to similar statements about Paul Pierce, AI or TMac.

    And meanwhile, Naptime, I can't recall Pippen ever saying "Yeah...I don't wanna guard Bird tonight. Sure, I'm the most capable guy on our team -- both physically and mentally to do so -- but I'm tryna keep that average up over 23 ppg, so, you know, let's let Horace chase his *** around all night."

    But aside from all that tongue-in-cheek ribbing...My only point here is that I still believe our best perimeter lineup is TJ/MDJ/Danny if they're all healthy, no matter the exact role of everyone involved.

    And I don't believe it's close.
    Isn't the opposite also true?

    Although you can help alleviate Granger of some Scoring pressure by putting Dunleavy in.....wouldn't the opposite be true on the defensive end where Granger now has to ( likely ) exert effort/energy on the defensive end ( something that he probably won't have to do as much if Marquis/BRush/Jack was on the floor ) since Dunleavy isn't going to be defending the other teams top perimeter scorer?

    I see your point....and in the end of the game....both Granger and Dunelavy will be on the floor to close out games.....but I don't see why they have to share the majority of their time together on the floor for the majority of the 3 QTRs.
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    My main point in the other thread is that we need to have our best team on the floor to start the game.

    We're not the Spurs. We're not the 55-win Detroit teams who's biggest criticism was that they would "turn it on, and turn it off" too much. Yes, they did that. But they had the talent to make it work -- at least in the regular season.

    Despite our bi-polar spikes and lulls in scoring every other 12 minutes, we can't expect to regularly end the first quarter down 28-17 and have a decent opportunity to win the game. Our guys are too young, too unfamiliar with each other and, in some cases, too shell-shocked to be expected to overcome significant early-game deficits to good teams.

    It's November now, and a lot of weird things happen -- and have happened -- in November...But if you think we're gonna be down 29-18 in March to Cleveland and have much chance of being within striking distance in the final 3 minutes of the 4th, I believe you're sorely mistaken.

    So, in short, we need to always get off to the best starts we possibly can. Ergo, our best players need to be on the floor at tip-off. Since a healthy MDJ is clearly our 2nd best player, he needs to be one of the five.
    Read my Pacers blog:
    8points9seconds.com

    Follow my twitter:

    @8pts9secs


  24. #24
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    Btw, starting is completely irrelevant. I just mentioned it because I thought having Quis defending their top guy might keep Danny fresh for late in the game. Also, Dunleavy might be a good scoring punch off the bench, which we often lack. And the Spurs didn't bring Manu off the bench to keep him fresh. It was a strategy to have him a scoring punch off the bench - which is what ATC was referring to in the first place. It's not like Tony-Manu-Bowen-Duncan weren't on the court the most.

  25. #25
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Danny loses 1 chore {Indy Star}

    I don't think that anyone remembers the impact Mike had against Memphis his only game in the preseason. In his limited play, playing hurt, he was a beast on both ends of the floor.

    I really hope Mike starts off the bench to get back into the game. He is worth being a starter, and from what I understand he should be better defensively as well.

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