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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

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There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

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When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

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Asking for a Raise...

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  • Asking for a Raise...

    Anyone have much experience when it comes to asking for a raise?

    I've never done it and usually just waited for the management to give the raise...but lately i've been feelin' like as if I've been doing a lot of things at the company and think its time for a raise....I was promoted back in July but my salary had not changed...i thought maybe if i prove that i can get the job done, then they won't have any reason to not increase my salary...

    however i feel weird asking for a raise...

    would it create a weird atmosphere between management and myself if they decide not to due to whatever reason?

    would they feel that i am no longer motivated to be working at the company?

    would they look for a cheaper alternative?

  • #2
    Re: Asking for a Raise...

    I've never asked for a raise myself but I know people who have in previous offices..

    I guess I'm kind of surprised they diden't give you a pay rise with your promotion..

    I guess a couple of pointers could be

    What are other people getting paid in different companys that do the same work with the same quals

    Are your collegues as harder worker as you ?

    I don't think it can harm you as such, if you present a solid factfull case advising managment of why you deserve an increase, the key is, provide some good support, documents, clients, projects..

    easy for me to say but you should try if your not happy, make an appointment, present your case and ask if they think it over...

    Just a starter...
    Ya Think Ya Used Enough Dynamite there Butch...

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Asking for a Raise...

      Butter your boss up as much as possible.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Asking for a Raise...

        I would never ask for a raise...that's really dumb.




        I WOULD DEMAND ONE!


        But seriously, if you can avoid directly asking, that would probably be best. I don't know how close you are to your boss, but I would try an indirect approach first.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Asking for a Raise...

          When I was living in Bloomington, I worked for two years at a crappy hotel. I took on far more responsibility than I needed to, I did everything I could to improve the place. and it was for $4.50 an hour.

          Finally, after two years, I asked for a raise and the boss was very happy to give me one. He raised my rate to $5/hour. My face looked like this:

          He was VERY quick to tell me that I was getting MORE than a 10% raise and I should be happy because that's more than anyone EVER gets.

          I looked for another job and found a job landscaping for $10. That's well over a 100% raise. I couldn't believe I wasted a whole 2 years of my working life at that other place. Now that's a HARD lesson that I learned very well.

          NEVER stop looking for a better paying job. NEVER stop looking to improve your situation. ALWAYS keep your options open.

          Do well at one job and use your experience to work for a competitor for 50% better pay. Tell the old boss to match the offer. They never do. But keep their number. They might hire you back for ANOTHER 50% more in a year or two.

          KEEP THIS IN MIND - I have NEVER asked for a raise since that crappy hotel job - The key to making more money is job-hopping. That's the best way to increase your pay at the fastest rate possible.

          Next thing you know, in order to get a better job, you'll need to be certified or a different degree. Hello education, hello even MORE pay.
          “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

          “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Asking for a Raise...

            I'm not one to job hop to increase pay, because sooner or later, short stints at multiple companies will be a very telling sign on your resume. As long as when you move on, you're moving up, you can defend it, but many moves will simply seem like you have no loyalty except to money and you will be seen as a flight risk. Just my opinion.

            I have worked as GIS Manager for 5 years now. I have been with my employer for just over 10 years. When I got the GIS Manager position, the previous person was making 42K. I was making 28K. They offered me the job at 33K. It was a pretty big step up, and I'd never been a department head before, so I took it. Negotiated to 34K, but that was all.

            I got minimal raises over the next few years, and am currently making 36.5K. I just got a fairly big certification that is equivalent to a four year degree in the GIS field. GIS is a new enough technology that there wasn't a degree program beyond Geography when I was in college. The GISP (GIS Professional) certification is the equivalent of a bachelor's degree, and usually demands a fairly good jump in pay.

            Working for a county government, one could imagine how tight the funding is, and substantial raises are pretty unheard of. Not only do you have limited revenue to work with, but that revenue is usually shrinking and the cost of goods and services is rising. Add to that the fact that those who control the purse strings aren't usually forthcoming with cutting other areas to accomodate salary increases. Just a fact of life in government.

            I never asked for a raise beyond what was offered as part of the budget process because I knew how the game worked, and I didn't have any specific reasoning, other than I wanted to make more money.

            After getting certified as a GISP, and noting the salary guidelines that accompany such certification, I decided to jump into finding all the ammunition possible, and my goal was to have such an airtight case, they would have no choice but to agree.

            I researched like positions in counties with comparable populations, in all counties, and across the country and the region. I compared salaries and job descriptions across the private sector as well. I took into account job experience, skillsets, and job responsibilities. I had three different websites that did comparisons and advised certain salaries. I compared those numbers to the numbers that I came up with from comparing the same position as mine in other counties. The numbers were close enough to make my case for me.

            I knew that even if I made the most compelling case, the easy out for them would be to say, "We agree with you, but we don't have the money." I decided to find another way to fund my entire salary, outside the county general fund that was hurting. Not only was I not further hurting the general fund with a raise, I would be SAVING the general fund the amount of my current salary, and giving them the ability to reward me with a salary I deserved, and could prove it.

            I presented my entire budget to my three bosses, and then just told them, matter-of-factly, that I had requested a substantial pay increase and was prepared to defend my reasoning for doing so. They wanted to discuss it, so I laid out all the figures for them in a professional presentation and answered every question they had. For the record, I added 2K to the number that I wanted, so that I could come down and still be happy with my new salary.

            After reviewing my research, asking me questions, and being intrigued by the idea of changing HOW they paid my salary, they excused me from the room and talked about it for about 10 minutes. They called me back in and offered me a grand MORE than I asked for. Not only did I not have to come down the extra 2K I put in for, I got an extra grand.

            My salary for 2009 will be 26% higher than what I make right now.

            Three more stinking pays until I finally make what I'm worth.

            After all that, my advice is to do the research yourself, be brutally honest with yourself while you do, and if the numbers support you, go in with guns blazing. Be professional, not aggressive. Be insistent without being offensive. There is a way to demand a raise without being demanding.

            Got me what I wanted. Good luck!



            RESIDENT COUNTING THREAD PHILOSOPHIZER

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Asking for a Raise...

              I understand the "flight risk" argument. In a world where the employer holds the power, and there is a good deal of competition in terms of other people who can do the job, well everyone wants to make sure that the relationship will last a long time.

              But in my line of work, flight risk is something that very much works in my favor.

              3 a.m. phone calls. over 72 hours without sleep. Willing to drop my life, get on a plane in less than 6 hours and be gone for a month. Willing to take *literal* abuse from demanding clients. (I've been screamed at and sent home from jobs so many times it would make your head spin. I've had clients throw things. I've had team members with 10 and 20 years experience break down in tears.)

              And I do it all with minimal complaint and the do some of the highest quality work in my industry.

              Flight risk? You're damn right I'm a flight risk. If I'm not happy, I'm gone. And there's only one thing that makes me happy at my job. High-paying billable hours.
              “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

              “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Asking for a Raise...

                Originally posted by heywoode View Post
                I'm not one to job hop to increase pay, because sooner or later, short stints at multiple companies will be a very telling sign on your resume. As long as when you move on, you're moving up, you can defend it, but many moves will simply seem like you have no loyalty except to money and you will be seen as a flight risk. Just my opinion.

                I have worked as GIS Manager for 5 years now. I have been with my employer for just over 10 years. When I got the GIS Manager position, the previous person was making 42K. I was making 28K. They offered me the job at 33K. It was a pretty big step up, and I'd never been a department head before, so I took it. Negotiated to 34K, but that was all.

                I got minimal raises over the next few years, and am currently making 36.5K. I just got a fairly big certification that is equivalent to a four year degree in the GIS field. GIS is a new enough technology that there wasn't a degree program beyond Geography when I was in college. The GISP (GIS Professional) certification is the equivalent of a bachelor's degree, and usually demands a fairly good jump in pay.

                Working for a county government, one could imagine how tight the funding is, and substantial raises are pretty unheard of. Not only do you have limited revenue to work with, but that revenue is usually shrinking and the cost of goods and services is rising. Add to that the fact that those who control the purse strings aren't usually forthcoming with cutting other areas to accomodate salary increases. Just a fact of life in government.

                I never asked for a raise beyond what was offered as part of the budget process because I knew how the game worked, and I didn't have any specific reasoning, other than I wanted to make more money.

                After getting certified as a GISP, and noting the salary guidelines that accompany such certification, I decided to jump into finding all the ammunition possible, and my goal was to have such an airtight case, they would have no choice but to agree.

                I researched like positions in counties with comparable populations, in all counties, and across the country and the region. I compared salaries and job descriptions across the private sector as well. I took into account job experience, skillsets, and job responsibilities. I had three different websites that did comparisons and advised certain salaries. I compared those numbers to the numbers that I came up with from comparing the same position as mine in other counties. The numbers were close enough to make my case for me.

                I knew that even if I made the most compelling case, the easy out for them would be to say, "We agree with you, but we don't have the money." I decided to find another way to fund my entire salary, outside the county general fund that was hurting. Not only was I not further hurting the general fund with a raise, I would be SAVING the general fund the amount of my current salary, and giving them the ability to reward me with a salary I deserved, and could prove it.

                I presented my entire budget to my three bosses, and then just told them, matter-of-factly, that I had requested a substantial pay increase and was prepared to defend my reasoning for doing so. They wanted to discuss it, so I laid out all the figures for them in a professional presentation and answered every question they had. For the record, I added 2K to the number that I wanted, so that I could come down and still be happy with my new salary.

                After reviewing my research, asking me questions, and being intrigued by the idea of changing HOW they paid my salary, they excused me from the room and talked about it for about 10 minutes. They called me back in and offered me a grand MORE than I asked for. Not only did I not have to come down the extra 2K I put in for, I got an extra grand.

                My salary for 2009 will be 26% higher than what I make right now.

                Three more stinking pays until I finally make what I'm worth.

                After all that, my advice is to do the research yourself, be brutally honest with yourself while you do, and if the numbers support you, go in with guns blazing. Be professional, not aggressive. Be insistent without being offensive. There is a way to demand a raise without being demanding.

                Got me what I wanted. Good luck!
                GIS is awesome and a great skill to have. I learned basic GIS in college and it is offered as a minor at my alma mater (George Washington University) and every student who takes any geography class at least learns a little bit of it. It is actually pretty fun!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Asking for a Raise...

                  Originally posted by dcpacersfan View Post
                  GIS is awesome and a great skill to have. I learned basic GIS in college and it is offered as a minor at my alma mater (George Washington University) and every student who takes any geography class at least learns a little bit of it. It is actually pretty fun!
                  It is very rewarding for me. I hope at some point in their lives, everyone has a job that they love, they are proud of, and that they know contributes to so many different levels of society.

                  I say often that I was born to do this job. I mean it. I will never work in another industry for the rest of my life.

                  If you can minor in GIS, dc, I would do it. If you think it is fun to learn in college, you should try it in the real world where the work you do makes a WORLD of difference. I can't describe the feeling I feel when people tell me they couldn't survive without GIS and what I do every day. Sure makes it easy to get out of bed in the morning!

                  LA, that is awesome! I would say that my argument about flight risk does not apply to you. I'm sure there are some niches out there that fall in the same category as you. That is excellent that you are the kind of person who can deal with the negatives in your job and use it to your advantage. Good man!



                  RESIDENT COUNTING THREAD PHILOSOPHIZER

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Asking for a Raise...

                    Heywoode I would love to have your job. I love geography.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Asking for a Raise...

                      That is one damn impressive way to get a raise Heywoode. Excellent approach.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Asking for a Raise...

                        I have been at two different jobs and asked for raises. My current job I asked for a raise when the national minimum wage increased to be compensated on the same scale and they couldnt argue so I got the raise.

                        The other job I started a $12 an hour, worked for a few months and told them I wanted $15. Took a day for the boss to talk to the higher ups but it was approved, then I was moved to a different department and i told them that I would want a raise to $18 for doing the extra work and they put me on a one month probation and when I finished the month I went back in and asked for the $18 and it was approved.

                        The job I am at now I should be making more and I know I should, but it is a hassle to ask for more, plus I just like being forgotten about at my company so that they dont ask me to do more. And I will be leaving this job in the new year and they know it so I think that if I ask for a raise now they will either 1) say no 2) say no and look for someone else to work my shift. I should be making at least $2/hour more than what I am. In fact this rant is making me want to do something about it.

                        I will check the managers schedules and email one of them about it. Done and done.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Asking for a Raise...

                          A RAISE....a RAISE??? We're talking about a raise?

                          Most peole I talk with want me to cut my rate from 7% to 6%(just for them wink wink).....a reduction of 14.3 %. That 7% hasn't gone up in 12,000 years and yet my gas charge sure the #+$$ does, as does advertising, etc.

                          And a bank just arbitrarily cut my deal from 6 to 5% and told us there was no negotiation on that. It's a short sale home so there is no one to argue against the bank...and the bank doesn't give a dern. (Yeah, I just love bailing them out)
                          Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Asking for a Raise...

                            If anyone wants to see examples of excellent GIS websites, go here: http://beacon.schneidercorp.com/

                            My site is Huntington County, IN.

                            Wayne County, IN has their oblique aerial photography linked through Microsoft Virtual Earth's web interface and into their beacon site. Microsoft hasn't added Huntington County's obliques that we just flew this spring, but it is coming....slowly.


                            Originally posted by intridcold View Post
                            Heywoode I would love to have your job. I love geography.
                            The field is wide open, dude! Get some training and some experience doing some intern work, and I guarantee you can find a GIS Analyst position in almost any city with a population over 250,000 in America. Pay is reasonable too...


                            Originally posted by Gyron View Post
                            That is one damn impressive way to get a raise Heywoode. Excellent approach.
                            Thank you. Thank you very much.


                            Originally posted by indygeezer View Post
                            A RAISE....a RAISE??? We're talking about a raise?

                            Most peole I talk with want me to cut my rate from 7% to 6%(just for them wink wink).....a reduction of 14.3 %. That 7% hasn't gone up in 12,000 years and yet my gas charge sure the #+$$ does, as does advertising, etc.

                            And a bank just arbitrarily cut my deal from 6 to 5% and told us there was no negotiation on that. It's a short sale home so there is no one to argue against the bank...and the bank doesn't give a dern. (Yeah, I just love bailing them out)
                            Well, the actual PERCENTAGE hasn't increased, but home prices have....considerably...Although they are coming back down now...

                            Sorry...
                            Last edited by heywoode; 11-14-2008, 02:27 PM.



                            RESIDENT COUNTING THREAD PHILOSOPHIZER

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                            • #15
                              Re: Asking for a Raise...

                              I've learned that the only way to really get "a raise" beyond the 3-5% is to change companies.

                              I've changed companies three times since 2004 and now make almost 50% more than I was making in 2004. Of course I was out of work for about 9 months. But in the end it worked out. Finally feel I'm making what I am worth

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