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Thread: When Mike comes back...

  1. #1

    Default When Mike comes back...

    First and foremost, I'm a lurker. I love reading what you guys have to say, but I don't really comment on things all that often.

    Secondly, I was at the game last night and it was incredible. Great atmosphere, excellent effort, etc. It was just a enjoyable game to attend!

    My question...just because I'm curious is to what you guys think about Dunleavy coming back...is whether or not he should start when he gets back.

    Before you throw my idea under the bus, consider that Daniels had about 10 deflections last night and played very well defensively against Ray Allen. I know Ray doesn't drive as much as he used to, but he does run his defenders all over the place. Anyhow, 'Quis, in my mind, is a stronger defender than Mike, and although Mike brings a whole unique element to our team, we all know about his defensive struggles. I saw Daniels live, and do think he's playing with a renewed fire (i.e., contract year), and he may be more effective against teams with quick 2's and 3's than Mike would. Saying this, if Mike came off the bench, he could add some scoring to our second unit and would still cause matchup problems of his own.

    I'm rambling...my apologies.

    Let's sum it up:

    When Mike gets back, does he immediately start or do we keep 'Quis in there and have Mike be Indiana's version of Barbosa?

    Go Pacers!

  2. #2

    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    I don't want to compromise what we have going on right now, so I don't think it would be a good idea to place Dun into the starting lineup, at least right away. Ideally for us, he'd be our sixth man anyway since we need to have defense from each of the starting five positions.

    But with how Murphy has stepped up defensively, I don't think Mike can't do the same. And if he does, that would be huge for us and he could definitely make a case for himself to be starter. Either way though, he's suited to be an SF and I'd like for him to come off the bench as such.

  3. #3
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    It's an interesting question... not only do you have to wonder who starts, but also what happens to the backup rotation. Quis gets backup minutes and Rush gets all pine? That will make bunches of people unhappy, and it's a pretty short-sighted approach when Rush sure looks like he's ready for PT.

    Danny responds best when the pressure is on him to score... if Mike comes back does Danny dial back his agressiveness?

    Last night's win and the fact that the Pistons game was close can both be attributed to our stellar perimeter D... would we have won those with Dun on the floor?

    Dunleavy's a great guy and I'm glad to have him on the team. I think all of my questions are legit, though.
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    All good points, makes me wonder if the Pacers are shopping Dunleavy.

    Before you throw that idea under the bus, realize that Mike just had a season that will probably be the best of his career and is at peak value right now even with the tendenitis. He shot abnormally well last year (for him) and it would not surprise me if he reverts back to 14 ppg type player.

    Typically that wouldn't bother me but with Rush waiting in the wings and seemingly able to play 25 mpg in the near future (like later this season) it wouldn't surprise me if the Pacers at least looked at moving Dunleavy around the trade deadline. It is an option they should at least look at.

    I love Dunleavy, he's definately a guy that wants to be here, but now may be the time to cash out on him.

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Maybe we put Danny at the power forward position for a while?

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    We can talk about this all we want, but I have little doubt that when Mike comes back Obrien will start him.

    The more relevant question to me is how the backup minutes are distributed, and I would like to see Brandon Rush in front of Marquis. Marquis does some nice things out there, but Brandon is better on both ends (at least potentially, he still needs some polish offensively). I just don't see Daniels as part of the future of this team and would not mind at all if he were benched.

    Most likely it will result in less minutes for Brandon with Marquis still getting a lot of the backup minutes though...
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    I think Rush will simply see more time at the 3 to allow Marquis to still play as the backup 2.

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    All good points, makes me wonder if the Pacers are shopping Dunleavy.

    Before you throw that idea under the bus, realize that Mike just had a season that will probably be the best of his career and is at peak value right now even with the tendenitis. He shot abnormally well last year (for him) and it would not surprise me if he reverts back to 14 ppg type player.

    Typically that wouldn't bother me but with Rush waiting in the wings and seemingly able to play 25 mpg in the near future (like later this season) it wouldn't surprise me if the Pacers at least looked at moving Dunleavy around the trade deadline. It is an option they should at least look at.

    I love Dunleavy, he's definately a guy that wants to be here, but now may be the time to cash out on him.
    I think Dunleavy did well last year because he is just entering his prime (was 27 last season), has been allowed to gain some confidence, and the system fits him. Yes, he shot well...but the only reason he will not exceed 15ppg this year is if the scoring load is more evenly distributed. Since we have BOTH TJ Ford and Jarrett Jack scoring in double figures from the point, it is likely Dun's numbers drop...but I don't think it will have anything to do with whether he is capable to repeat a season similar to last season.

    As for trading him, I would trade Quis well before Dunleavy...only because I want Rush to replace Dunleavy as the starter....and have Dunleavy as the 6th man off the bench.

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    We can talk about this all we want, but I have little doubt that when Mike comes back Obrien will start him.
    I agree with this.

    Bird has said that Dunleavy is our best overall player and him and Granger co-exist perfectly. Granger will always guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team, and most teams only have one that we really need to worry about. So more than half the time Dunleavy will only have to defend a role player anyway. Deflections are nice, but better offensive play and more threats on the floor is nicer.

    When he gets back this should be the rotation

    TJ/Jack
    Dun/Daniels
    Granger/Rush
    Murphy/Foster
    Nesto/Hibbert

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Two things:

    First, Dunleavy is not a terrible defender. I would say he is average. Perhaps slightly below average one-on-one and substantially above average in the team defense in knowing where to be and when and how to rotate and help. So, I don't think the defense takes a big hit with Mike coming back.

    Second, my suspicion as far as playing time and rotations is that Jack won't play much 2 guard if any. I personally like having both pgs on the court together in certain situations, but for distributing minutes and not wearing the pgs out over the season, I would expect Rush and Daniels to get all the backup swingman minutes.

  11. #11
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    I agree with this.

    Bird has said that Dunleavy is our best overall player and him and Granger co-exist perfectly. Granger will always guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team, and most teams only have one that we really need to worry about. So more than half the time Dunleavy will only have to defend a role player anyway. Deflections are nice, but better offensive play and more threats on the floor is nicer.

    When he gets back this should be the rotation

    TJ/Jack
    Dun/Daniels
    Granger/Rush
    Murphy/Foster
    Nesto/Hibbert
    On offense, Dun and Granger co-exist very, very well. Defense is another matter...which was only one of our problems defending last year.

    When Granger is forced out to the perimeter, you lose his ability to block shots, rebound and play help defense. That is why a player like Brandon Rush, who can guard the perimeter and is extremely quick...definitely quicker than Danny, is a much better fit for Granger...allowing Danny to shift back to the 3 where he truly belongs. Rush has the potential, IMO, to be a better perimeter defender than anyone on the team.

  12. #12
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    I agree with this.

    Bird has said that Dunleavy is our best overall player and him and Granger co-exist perfectly. Granger will always guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team, and most teams only have one that we really need to worry about. So more than half the time Dunleavy will only have to defend a role player anyway. Deflections are nice, but better offensive play and more threats on the floor is nicer.

    When he gets back this should be the rotation

    TJ/Jack
    Dun/Daniels
    Granger/Rush
    Murphy/Foster
    Nesto/Hibbert

    Yeah that looks about right, Obie likes his 9 man rotations but getting the rookies out there needs to be a priority. This year is all about transitioning the rookies. Daniels and Rasho serve the purpose of being vet players who can help while we bring along the rooks this year... Next year they both expire and hopefully Brandon and Roy are ready for bigger roles.

    In the long run, I really hope a dun-rush-granger rotation on the wing can stick. Divide the minutes between those three with maybe occasional spot minutes for jack at the 2... I think its a pretty potent combo.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    I personally would prefer Dun to come off the bench, but as others have said I doubt it happens. Mike starting weakens the starters defensively and causes an imbalance offensively. IMO, Daniels and Fords penetration gives us a good balance with the shooting / scoring ability of DG, Murphy, and Rasho. Our second string is filled with good defenders and is a little more offensively challenged with Jack, Rush, Hibbert, and Foster. Having Dunleavy provide experience and fire power to that group would be a more natural fit.

    Ideally Marquis is only holding the starting 2 spot for Rush. Duns future on this team should be as a 6th man. Let's start seeing how that works. If it doesn't, then Dun's time here should be short. Having Dun guarding starting 2s or forcing Danny to always guard the teams best player is not the way to contention. I have no problem asking DG to guard someone for short periods, but you are asking alot to have him expend maximum energy all game in that way - not to mention risking foul trouble on your best player.

  14. #14
    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Well think about this.

    Quis gives you 10 ppg starting. If he comes off the bench I could still see him giving you 5-10 ppg.

    Dun Dun. Is going to give you 20 PPG while shooting close to 45 percent from the 3.

    You give up a little defense but gain offense not only for dun but also for granger because it is going to open that lane up that much more because the sg will no longer be able to try to double team down on granger.

    Say what you want but it is not a good idea to bench one of your best scorers and highest basketball IQ guy.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoddage View Post
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    I don't want to compromise what we have going on right now, so I don't think it would be a good idea to place Dun into the starting lineup, at least right away.
    Compromise what we have going on? We won a game.

    Dunleavy is our second best player overall and, IMO, was the best player on our team last year.

    He starts.
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Compromise what we have going on? We won a game.

    Dunleavy is our second best player overall and, IMO, was the best player on our team last year.

    He starts.
    Exactly for the reason we won a game (against the champions, at that), I don't want to compromise what we have going on. Pretty simple, actually.

  17. #17

    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by justinDOHMAN View Post
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    You give up a little defense but gain offense not only for dun but also for granger because it is going to open that lane up that much more because the sg will no longer be able to try to double team down on granger.
    I love Dunleavy, but he's a huge defensive liability. He might be the worst defensive SG in the league behind Redick, Korver, Brent Barry, and Matt Carroll.

    He's certainly invaluable to the offense, but I won't go as far as saying he's an average defender.

    I think the dilemma in starting him is having him and Murphy together in the starting lineup. I don't think they should play together because of defense, but I think they both add a very important component to the offense.

    Someone (who shouldn't) is going to lose a lot of minutes.

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    The Dude Abides MrSparko's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    We're two games in to the season, and people know what the Pacers have going on for them?
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSparko View Post
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    We're two games in to the season, and people know what the Pacers have going on for them?
    You learn from each game.

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I think the dilemma in starting him is having him and Murphy together in the starting lineup. I don't think they should play together because of defense, but I think they both add a very important component to the offense.

    Someone (who shouldn't) is going to lose a lot of minutes.
    I'd like to think that Roy could solve this problem.

    Roy's presence (even moreso than Foster) brings a defensive force that can compensate for Troy and provide serious backup to anything that gets by Dun.

    I'm not saying the combo of Dun-Troy is golden, but it's pretty cool offensively, and maybe a developed Roy later in the year can make that squad tolerable on defense.
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    The Dude Abides MrSparko's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Wouldn't it be prudent to at least wait to see how they play when Conseco is a morgue again?

    Young teams thrive on that energy more than a veteran team would I think. They're also more likely to be hurt by a....well Conseco crowd.
    Last edited by MrSparko; 11-02-2008 at 07:18 PM.
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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    All good points, makes me wonder if the Pacers are shopping Dunleavy.
    There is no way they are shopping him. Bird loves him and OB loves him.
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  23. #23
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Anyone remember how bad our defense was last year? What have we done to improve that? Sending JO north certainly did not help it.

    Jarrett Jack and Brandon Rush? Yes. TJ Ford? Hardly. Quis getting more minutes? Maybe.

    When Mike comes back I expect our defense to begin to suffer. Not because of Mike necessarily but because of the combination of players who will be on the floor with him. Quis, Jack and Rush have been getting the minutes Dunleavy will be getting. We may very well score an extra 10 points a game, but I expect we will give up an extra 15. Again, this is not Mike as much as the combination of players on the floor.

    The bottom line is, as long as Dunleavy and Murphy remain on the floor together, our defense will not be good and there is no reason to expect better results than last year.

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    There is no way they are shopping him. Bird loves him and OB loves him.
    Yes, Mike is not going anywhere. Notwithstanding my previous post, he is a very good and valuable player. We should keep him long term IMO...

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    Default Re: When Mike comes back...

    Between Quis and Rush I think offensive and defensive matchups will have a lot to do with who get's more minutes on a given night. One thing to consider about Dunleavy is that the ball movement is much smoother when he's in the game, and that could help cut down on the turnovers we've seen in the first 2 games. I guess I'm saying better defense by smarter offense. It's entirely possible that by us having 2 point guards that can actually keep their man in front of them, Murphy playing better D, and having 2 centers that have a defensive mentality, Dunleavy might look a lot better than advertised defensively this year.

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