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Thread: What SI says about the Pacers...

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    Default What SI says about the Pacers...

    supposedly a pro scout breaks down all the teams, here is the pacers:

    An opposing team's scout sizes up the Pacers

    Not having Jamaal Tinsley around will be a huge addition by subtraction. In the last five years, you never knew whether he was going to play or not. It's hard enough as the opponent to wonder about his status; it's much harder for his own coach not to know from night to night whether he's going to have his point guard. His play hasn't been terrific, either, and then you add the bad influence he is on the young players in their locker room. As much as Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson were criticized for being the bad seeds of that franchise, I would argue that Tinsley has been worse.

    Now they're replacing Tinsley with T.J. Ford, whom they got in the trade with Toronto for Jermaine O'Neal. First, let's note that it was time for O'Neal to go. Even at his best he was not a franchise guy -- he needed to be your No. 2 guy -- because you couldn't throw the ball to him at the end of the game and he'd get you a basket. So the trade gives Indiana, among other things, an upper-echelon point guard in Ford. T.J. has his issues, but he's in the top half of the league among starting point guards, and I believe you can win in our league if you have an upper-echelon point guard and marginal talent at the other positions. You won't be a championship contender, but you can challenge for the playoffs.

    Ford's strength is his speed. He's one of the fastest players in the league with the ball in his hands. He puts pressure on the defense after misses and makes. He does get in trouble by beating everyone on his own team down court and missing on a 1-on-2 break, because he doesn't finish well in traffic. From a defensive standpoint, you don't want to see him beat his man, but if he does it's sometimes good to let him get all the way to the basket because you'd rather see him trying to finish inside than pull up with that little runner of his. Ford is not a great a shooter, he's just OK, but he's a guy who can score 25 points some nights, and on this team I won't be surprised to see him averaging 15 per game.

    Ford fits their style perfectly, which is a bit of a surprise because the up-tempo system Jim O'Brien used last year was not the way he has played in the past. I give him credit for adjusting to his players, and Ford will make them even better in the open floor. Plus, they've added Jarrett Jack, who among backup point guards is also among the upper half in the league. So they've gone from being weak at that position to being strong.

    The downside of this style is that they were awful defensively. But they might have helped themselves at that end by supplementing Jeff Foster up front with a pair of true centers in Rasho Nesterovic and rookie Roy Hibbert, who both arrived in the O'Neal trade. Nesterovic is a highly underrated player in the trade. In the second half of last season, he was a key contributor to Toronto with his defensive presence and rebounding.

    The improvement in Mike Dunleavy has everything to do with opportunity. He was playing in an up-and-down style that was perfect for him, and he had a lot of stuff being run for him with O'Brien encouraging him to take shots. I used to say Dunleavy was just OK as a shooter. In fact, he wasn't great at anything, but he was decent at a lot of things. He could handle, pass, shoot and drive. But last year, the style of play and his improved confidence helped him to improve his shooting, and that in turn helped him improve in all areas. He's still a poor defender, but this up-tempo style is maximizing his strengths.

    This will be a defining year for Danny Granger. We'll find out just how good he is. He is a threat to become an All-Star someday, but that isn't a shoo-in and I don't see him as being quite good enough to build your team around. Granger's biggest strength is his shooting. When you're taking close to 300 threes and making almost 40 percent of them as he did last year, then you're a good shooter. But he needs to improve his driving and ball handling and scoring off the dribble. If you force him to put the ball down, he'll miss more often than he makes. He needs to develop his post-up game and become a better defender. You put him together with Dunleavy and the Pacers have a solid pair of wings, but compared to what you see on other teams, they don't scare you.

    Troy Murphy is a standstill-shooting big man who can threaten on the offensive glass. He will battle, but he's not a good defender. He'll give you balance with his shooting to spread the floor.

    Overall, they're better than last year. They have a chance to win 40 or more games and challenge for the playoffs.



    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200.../10/22/pacers/

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    One of just a few decent reviews on the Pacers so far this year IMO.

    But, then again... this is SI and they usually know atleast a bit what they are talking about.
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200.../10/21/pacers/


    Indiana Pacers
    Projected Finish: 9th in Eastern Conference

    A fourth-year pro, Danny Granger is the Pacer with the best chance to develop into Indiana's franchise player.
    AP
    Fast Fact

    Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy each scored more than 1,500 points last year, becoming the first Pacers duo since Reggie Miller and Detlef Schrempf (in '92-93) to reach that mark in the same season.
    Last Season

    Record: 36-46 (9th in East)
    Points scored: 104.0 (7th in NBA)
    Points allowed: 105.4 (26th)

    The housecleaning nearly complete, they can get back to the business of winning games

    When the Pacers dealt Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto for point guard T.J. Ford in July, they became a franchise without a face -- or a single All-Star. "It certainly is a new world," says second-year coach Jim O'Brien. "But we have a terrific group of players, and people, who can lead at any given time. I'm not one to believe in the Great Man theory of leadership."

    Not that O'Brien has much choice. All the big names that fans grew accustomed to seeing at Conseco Fieldhouse are now gone; only three players survive from the team involved in the infamous 2004 brawl in Detroit. (Troubled point guard Jamaal Tinsley is actively being shopped and is expected to be traded shortly.) Says O'Brien, "The ownership and [team president] Larry Bird just felt that they could no longer tolerate anything but the highest character."

    Those left are young (nine are under 28) and promising, if not too imposing. Mike Dunleavy and Danny Granger have the skills to match any swingman's in the league. The No. 3 pick in the 2002 draft, Dunleavy, 28, was considered a bust before arriving from Golden State in a January '07 trade. "I really like the freedom here on the offensive end," he says. "I'm still on a high." Granger, 25, may be the team's best offensive and best defensive player. "He has a chance to be special," says O'Brien.

    With Ford pushing the ball and another talented wing in rookie Brandon Rush from Kansas, the Pacers will play a fast-paced style that will win back fans. But they still need a low-post presence -- like, say, Jermaine O'Neal -- to make headway in the improving East. -- Pablo S. Torre


    Bad choice of words.

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Ford's strength is his speed. He's one of the fastest players in the league with the ball in his hands. He puts pressure on the defense after misses and makes. He does get in trouble by beating everyone on his own team down court and missing on a 1-on-2 break, because he doesn't finish well in traffic. From a defensive standpoint, you don't want to see him beat his man, but if he does it's sometimes good to let him get all the way to the basket because you'd rather see him trying to finish inside than pull up with that little runner of his.
    Hmmm... maybe I'm not crazy.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    PROUD 2 B A PACERS FAN! xtacy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    One of just a few decent reviews on the Pacers so far this year IMO.
    def agreed.

    we are not getting any good reviews from supposedly nba experts lately.

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Hmmm... maybe I'm not crazy.
    As long as he's no better to you than Best or Edny, you, sir, are crazy.

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by xtacy View Post
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    we are not getting any good reviews from supposedly nba experts lately.
    Is a review good if it's accurate or good if it's positive?

    In other words... What if they're right?
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    It's nice to hear some positive reviews. They are too few these days.
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    As long as he's no better to you than Best or Edny, you, sir, are crazy.
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Is a review good if it's accurate or good if it's positive?

    In other words... What if they're right?
    I know what you are saying. I can hardly be considered on the Sunshine Brigade myself, but I do think some of the other reviews look more at like this:

    "The Pacers lost multiple ALL-STAR FORWARD JERMAINE O'NEAL and got tiny t.j. ford back". The fact that JO wasn't his former self and had been having atleast 3 years with so many injuries and the brawl still lingering from the past weren't seen as factors apparantly. I also think they fell into the never trade big-for-small thing and made it sort of a clichee.

    So, no, a positive review is not necessarily a good review, but I liked the way this one was worded and went further then the standard 'bla-bla' comments from someone who didn't seem to have watched the Pacers the last couple of seasons and wasn't in anyway connected to the Pacers, otherwise they would have atleast felt that JO just HAD to be traded for both his and the Pacers sake.

    Just my

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Hmmm... maybe I'm not crazy.
    Not crazy. Just wrong and misinformed, unable or unwilling to read the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sports Illustrated View Post
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    So the trade gives Indiana, among other things, an upper-echelon point guard in Ford. T.J. has his issues, but he's in the top half of the league among starting point guards
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Is a review good if it's accurate or good if it's positive?
    it's good if it does tell a team's not only weaknesses but also strenghts. all the reviews lately are pointing out our weaknesses and telling how miserably we will be playing. i even seen some expert saying we are one of the two candidates for first draft pick next year with memphis. i know we are not going to make a miracle this season but saying this team will come last in the nba is not logical.

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Is a review good if it's accurate or good if it's positive?
    Actually, in the general usage, a "good" review is a positive review. Though grammatacally, the adjective "good" is a modifier for "review", contextually in generally is referring to the type of review and the news it gives about the reviewee, rather than the quality (read: accuracy, fairness) of the review.

    In other words... What if they're right?
    Depends on they. Keep in mind, both the unnamed scout and SI basically say the Pacers are flawed team that no longer is on a downbound train. They put us hovering around the fringes of the playoffs in a weak conference. This hardly qualifies unfettered optimism.

    The problem is that there's not a great deal of difference in the East between the teams at the bottom of the playoffs and the teams that will end up 12th or 13th.

    The only teams that I think are definitively worse than the Pacers are New York, New Jersey, and Charlotte. However, the only teams that I think are lead pipe cinches to be better than the Pacers are Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, and Orlando. Everybody else could be better or could be worse, with varying degrees of probability either way. Teams like Philly and Toronto, and maybe Washington should be better, while Milwaukee, Miami, Chicago, and Atlanta could go wildly either way.

    One big thing that could impact the Pacers is just a brutal early schedule. If they can get through that in tact, hovering close to .500, then the playoffs will be in play. If not...

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Not crazy. Just wrong and misinformed, unable or unwilling to read the following:
    And we're getting rid of a top-10 PG with injury and attitude problems for a top-15 PG with injury risk. I still don't see the "big upgrade."
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    As long as he's no better to you than Best or Edny, you, sir, are crazy.
    I'm sure he's better, overall, than Best or Edny. However, my point is that his game has the same fatal flaw that they had/ have. Becuase of this, we'll be looking for an upgrade at PG eventually. Some of you may just take longer to realize that than others.

    If we agree that he's somewhere around top-15 (which is the median) and top-20 (which is below the median) for starting PGs in the league then we're still a long way from upper echelon (which I've never considered "upper echelon" and median to be the same. Maybe the next time one of my work reports uses a median P/E multiple I'll refer to it as "upper echelon" and use Sports Illustrated's twisted definition as my source.)

    Edny, Best, and Ford could all look good in certain situations and in short bursts, and there are certain matchups they can exploit and dominate. But for every matchup they can exploit, there are 2x or 3x as many where they get exploited.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    I think making comparisons between TJ Ford and Travis Best's games is unfair to TJ. TJ Ford is a better player AND a better PG than Travis Best.

    Ford is no Tinsley, but he's a lot better than Travis at sharing the ball and getting other players involved....and I don't think his game has a fatal flaw. I think some forget how bad of a playmaker Best was. He had absolutely no court vision. Ford does not have that problem. Again, he is no Tinsley or Mark Jackson at seeing the court, but very few PG's are that good in that one category. Anyway, Ford's assist totals show he is capable of distributing the ball, along with driving to the bucket.

    Travis' career assist average was 2.7 per game. That's no surprise because Travis' game was dribbling the ball and scoring, not finding guys open. Ford's career assist average is 6.9 and at 25 years old he's not even close to his prime. People seem to forget that Ford is Granger's age, for goodness sakes.

    Travis' "best" scoring year (which scoring of course was his best attribute) is lower than any of Ford's years except Ford's rookie year. This year will be no exception. In fact, no other year will be until TJ is 35.

    Is it possible that TJ Ford becomes an even better PG? Sure, why not? He's only 25. Best improved as he entered his prime too....yet never became as good as TJ Ford is at the present time.

    ...and as for a Tinsley comparison, yes Tinsley in theory could be a more valuable PG than Ford. He simply has a better skill set for the position than Ford. But that just emphasizes how big of a disappointment Jamaal Tinsley has been. What a waste of talent!
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 10-25-2008 at 12:57 PM.

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Exactly. Tinsley usually wasted his talent, TJ doesn't. He was a potential top-10 PG who actually got there for all of a fraction of a season or two. Whooptie do. It didn't work out, so let's stop pretending that we just kicked Mark Jackson off the team.

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    When Ford is healthy and on the floor he has something that gives him an advantage against almost any PG he faces, his speed. Tinsley even when healthy and motivated never had an attribute that gave him that advantage.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Tinsley's legend grows as he sits at home. Now I'm seeing Tinsley compared favorably with Mark Jackson.

    Tinsley gave us some tantalizing glimpses that he MIGHT someday be a PG worthy of that comparison but ultimately he took a crap on that vision of his potential and ceiling and instead showed us he never was going to be Mark Jackson in terms of play on the court, professionalism, or leadership.... let alone off the court.

    Tinsley's consistency was woeful. His pouting and drama disconcerting. His injury history (or what was reported as injury history) is just the icing on a very stale cake.

    Tinsley's court vision is overrated. More times than not he simply focused on one (or two players) or thought of himself.

    Yes, he had a few good games... he also had some real stinkers... and plenty where he watched in street clothes.

    Tinsley is no Mark Jackson. Never was... never will be...
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman View Post
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    It's nice to hear some positive reviews. They are too few these days.
    Who's fault is that, the writers or the team? I'm no hater but like Anthem was alluding to it's worth listening to outsiders since they see something different and should be bringing no bias to the table.

    Now I will give you this, too often we get bad reviews in that positive or negative they just seem to be talking about a totally different set of players. Maybe "Granger's great passing" or "Murphy's interior defense" shows up in a review and you think .

    This one seems to be on track and suggests a range of wins from 35-40 I'd guess. Seems high to me but not crazy.


    Jay is right about Ford's game, but his flaw and his overall game are much higher than Best/Edny and that's the key. Lots of strong players have flaws in their games. Reggie wasn't all that great going off the dribble and was often only an adequate defender at best, but he wasn't Del Curry either.

    I think Ford is far less of a pounding-nails dribbler than Best was, even if both of them like to push for weak layup attempts in traffic. I think Ford gets to his decision point much quicker and this will keep the offense moving much better than Best did. The problem with Travis was that his overdribbling went nowhere and killed the offensive flow, plus his court vision sucked.

    I can admit that Ford might not be the final answer at PG, but I'd say fixing SG and PF remain the priorities by far now. Dun is too slow for SG and they just don't have a true threat at PF. I love Foster, but his game is role player. Unless Rasho/Hibbert can really start to carry the load Jeff is not going to be enough at PF.

    By the time those issues are fixed (along with the financials of Dun/Troy) then will be able to deal with the PG situation if it still needs upgrading. Heck, if the rest of the team becomes good enough it won't matter anyway.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I can admit that Ford might not be the final answer at PG, but I'd say fixing SG and PF remain the priorities by far now. Dun is too slow for SG and they just don't have a true threat at PF. I love Foster, but his game is role player. Unless Rasho/Hibbert can really start to carry the load Jeff is not going to be enough at PF.

    By the time those issues are fixed (along with the financials of Dun/Troy) then will be able to deal with the PG situation if it still needs upgrading. Heck, if the rest of the team becomes good enough it won't matter anyway.
    Yes, Ford is not the final answer at PG. This team only has one final answer at one position and that's Danny at SF. The rest of the team is pretty good, but none of these players except for maybe Rush and Hibbert will be starting on a serious contender. Maybe Foster could, but he'd not be the piece you would want in the middle. That's why this team will be around .500 at best.

    Anyway, I'm just pleased Diener is not running the point this year. The upgrade at PG is worth a solid 5-8 additional wins. That's why I expect us to be much closer to .500 than last year.

    ....but depending on how things go, Ford may be our starter for awhile. That's not a bad thing because he will help this team make the playoffs.

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Tinsley's legend grows as he sits at home. Now I'm seeing Tinsley compared favorably with Mark Jackson.

    Tinsley gave us some tantalizing glimpses that he MIGHT someday be a PG worthy of that comparison but ultimately he took a crap on that vision of his potential and ceiling and instead showed us he never was going to be Mark Jackson in terms of play on the court, professionalism, or leadership.... let alone off the court.

    Tinsley's consistency was woeful. His pouting and drama disconcerting. His injury history (or what was reported as injury history) is just the icing on a very stale cake.

    Tinsley's court vision is overrated. More times than not he simply focused on one (or two players) or thought of himself.

    Yes, he had a few good games... he also had some real stinkers... and plenty where he watched in street clothes.

    Tinsley is no Mark Jackson. Never was... never will be...
    There are not many players that had court vision like Mark Jackson. Jason Kidd obviously had it. Steve Nash. Magic. It's a short list of freaks. I don't even think Stockton had it and I don't think CP3 has it...but they turned out ok. Tinsley does not make that list either of course, but he's well above many decent NBA PG's in that particular category. He also has some skills that Mark did not have...particularly the ability to penetrate with his solid handle. The truth is, Tinsley's biggest obstacle to becoming a Mark Jackson level PG is not the skills his creator handed to him, it's his attitude, maturity and leadership ability.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    I'd like to think Ford is the final answer for us at pg, if he remains healthy.

    I'd like to think it's possible that the tendency to shoot first too often was related to his job insecurity in Toronto. If that is not as big as issue here, I see lots of evidence during preseason that T.J. is willing and able to distribute like a longterm, excellent point guard.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Hmmm... maybe I'm not crazy.
    IMHO in no way can a player beating everyone else down the floor be a bad thing. It does two things. One, puts pressure on the defense thus drawing fouls at least half the time. Two, encourages his teammates (whether they can or not) to at least put forth the effort to get their butts down the floor with him.
    "No one else can see the preservation of the martyr in me" -- Corey Taylor

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    Default Re: What SI says about the Pacers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    When Ford is healthy and on the floor he has something that gives him an advantage against almost any PG he faces, his speed. Tinsley even when healthy and motivated never had an attribute that gave him that advantage.
    I always felt like Tinsleys strengths are his ball handling and passing skills. That, of course, only applies when he keeps it out of the realms of street ball. Had he been healthy, motivated, and straight headed this team wouldn't need a TJ Ford.
    "No one else can see the preservation of the martyr in me" -- Corey Taylor

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