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Thread: Pacers best defensive lineup

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    Default Pacers best defensive lineup

    Having not seen the game last night I was interested to read what O'Brien thought was his best defensive lineup in last nights game.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1088/SPORTS04

    As was the case last season, O'Brien has no intention of playing favorites. He had Jack, Murphy, Granger, Hibbert and Rush on the court in the first part of the final quarter and the Pacers trailing by nine points.

    O'Brien's decision paid off, as the Pacers took the lead 87-84 when Murphy passed the ball to Rush for an open 3-pointer.

    "They were by far our best defensive team," O'Brien said. "That's why they got us back into it. Play defense and I'll keep them on the court. We came from minus 10; don't mess with a good thing." ..................


    "It doesn't necessarily matter who starts the game. It's who is in there at the end," O'Brien said "I thought the defense with Jarrett, Brandon, Danny, Roy -- until he went down -- and Troy was strong. I wanted them to finish the game."



    Interesting that two rookies were in that group. I think Brandon is going to be a terrific defender and although Troy's one-on-one defense is not good, his team defense is good. I wonder how often Jack will finish games instead of TJ

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    The Jack-Rush-Granger part of that lineup is fairly predictable. Roy makes sense because he's our best shot-blocker/alterer by far. I would say that Jeff and Rasho are better individual defenders than Troy and Roy. I would guess that Troy's inclusion has more to do with offense than defense, even though I agree that his team defense is good. With Foster in the game instead of Troy you'd essentially be playing 4 on 5 with Jack, Rush, Granger, and Hibbert, none of whom are great at creating for others.

    On another note, I hope that when he refers to Roy going down, he's talking about fouls and not an injury.

    Also, I noticed that we seem to have shortened the rotation and played guys for more minutes. Was last night a preview of the early season games?
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I wonder how often Jack will finish games instead of TJ
    I think this will depend mainly on the other teams PG. If we're playing a team like Detroit, Utah, New Orleans, etc. that has a big, talented PG that is the driving force in their offense, you'll probably see Jack. If we're playing a team like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Atlanta, New Jersey, etc. that has a PG who TJ matches up better with defensively, TJ will likely play.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Roy did get injured. I've never heard anyone refer to someone "going down" when that reason was foul trouble? He sprained his ankle.

    As for the defensive lineup, it makes sense except for Murphy, but maybe when you flank a guy like Murphy with those 4, it raises his defensive game.

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I wonder how often Jack will finish games instead of TJ
    Hell, I wonder how often Jack will start games instead of TJ...

    I like the idea of a Jack/ Rush/ Granger/ Murphy/ Hibbert lineup as the 'closer'. Of course, that would probably also be my starting lineup if I got to choose.

    One thing you can say about that lineup - all of those guys can shoot thier FTs.

    And I like the way that lineup can pressure the perimeter, protect the paint, and as said above, Murphy is a capable "team" defender because he moves his feet. He can't move them quick enough to play great one-on-one defense, but with Jim O'Brien, the team defense concept is more important than any single player's ability to play lockdown D.

    Here's what I continue to struggle with regarding Murphy. Prior to his joining the Pacers, I thought he was more rugged. Maybe I'm still jaded from that first visual of Murphy vs. Rasheed, but even now I'm still struggling with whether he's soft or tough?

    That's why I'm saying I'd rather be in a position to draft a Buck Williams type PF (or for Peck's sake, a Dale Davis + competent at the FT line type PF). I think we need a bit more ruggedness to go with Jack, Rush, Granger and Hibbert.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Jack
    Daniels
    Granger
    Foster
    Rasho or Hibbert

    Im surprised to hear about all this Murphy talk with respect to defense. Hes normally not know for his defensive skills
    Last edited by MillerTime; 10-22-2008 at 11:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    One thing you can say about that lineup - all of those guys can shoot thier FTs.

    Here's what I continue to struggle with regarding Murphy. Prior to his joining the Pacers, I thought he was more rugged. Maybe I'm still jaded from that first visual of Murphy vs. Rasheed, but even now I'm still struggling with whether he's soft or tough?
    I've actually been dissapointed with Roy's free throw shooting so far this preseason. That's the only aspect of his game that's displeased me, though, so I haven't really complained. I think it's definitely something he needs to work on. He seems to have decent form and touch, though, so I see no reason for him to not become a 70+% shooter.

    I think Troy is tough, but not strong enough to hold his own. He's got some fire in his gut and is not afraid of contact, but he's can't push guys around. I'd love to have a Dale Davis type PF, but those seem to be few and far between these days. I'm racking my brain right now trying to think of PF's that are both starter quality and play like Dale or Buck Williams. I'm not really coming up with anyone.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    U.B. did you get a chance to see the Pacers vs. Grizz on t.v.? I didn't see you at the game so I don't know if you saw it or not.

    But if you didn't see it, I can tell you that your mouth would have been watering from the defense that Rush and Jack were playing.

    They tore the griz perimeter players up.

    So it does not suprise me at all to read this. Murphy has always been overlooked on here. No, he is not a lockdown defender but he tries. If Foster could consistantly hit any kind of shot, even a layup, he would be in there but you have to be able to go both ways in O'Briens system or the entire system bogs down.

    I'm still not worried about wins/losses yet. But I am very glad to read that we made a comeback when it mattered.

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Lets suppose, we're up by 7 with one min left. Would you guys rather have Daniels or Rush playing defense at SG? I sense the overall consensus is Rush, but I havent seen Rush play at all this preseason, but Daniels has normally been a decent defender
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    U.B. did you get a chance to see the Pacers vs. Grizz on t.v.? I didn't see you at the game so I don't know if you saw it or not.

    But if you didn't see it, I can tell you that your mouth would have been watering from the defense that Rush and Jack were playing.

    They tore the griz perimeter players up.

    So it does not suprise me at all to read this. Murphy has always been overlooked on here. No, he is not a lockdown defender but he tries. If Foster could consistantly hit any kind of shot, even a layup, he would be in there but you have to be able to go both ways in O'Briens system or the entire system bogs down.

    I'm still not worried about wins/losses yet. But I am very glad to read that we made a comeback when it mattered.

    No, I didn't see it on TV and I couldn't make it to the game, but I read your odd thoughts thread and it sounded really good.

    The Hornets are a really good team that has yet to lose in the preseason and from reading the N.O. paper it sounded like they played a regular season rotation. So I was encouraged about the game last night.

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    No, I didn't see it on TV and I couldn't make it to the game, but I read your odd thoughts thread and it sounded really good.

    The Hornets are a really good team that has yet to lose in the preseason and from reading the N.O. paper it sounded like they played a regular season rotation. So I was encouraged about the game last night.
    and you should consider we didnt play our normal starting lineup because Dunleavy was sidelined
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Lets suppose, we're up by 7 with one min left. Would you guys rather have Daniels or Rush playing defense at SG? I sense the overall consensus is Rush, but I havent seen Rush play at all this preseason, but Daniels has normally been a decent defender
    It really depends on who the other team's shooting guard is. If it's someone they're going to give the ball to and let create, then I want Rush guarding them. If the SG is just going to stand around and wait for a kick out, I'll take Daniels. Rush is a better on ball defender while 'Quis is better at disrupting passing lanes and such.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    and you should consider we didnt play our normal starting lineup because Dunleavy was sidelined
    Yeah, I wonder if the lineup JOB was using at the end might change to:

    Jack
    Rush
    Dun
    Granger
    Hibbert

    Dun brings slightly more on offense and is slightly less of a defensive liability.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Well color me impressed. In the past I've been less than please with Murph's defense, but I didn't see the game so if Obie's happy I'm happy.

    I was actually under the impression that West had a pretty good night against Murphy, but like I said I didn't see the game.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Yeah, I wonder if the lineup JOB was using at the end might change to:

    Jack
    Rush
    Dun
    Granger
    Hibbert

    Dun brings slightly more on offense and is slightly less of a defensive liability.
    Not if we want a defensive line up, as this tread talks about. Theres no way Dunleavy would be in the lineup if we are in the need for defensive stops. Theres better players on teh roster than Dunleavy (at SF) that can bring the defensive intensity we'll need.

    As for Granger at PF, he is a good defender, but he is definately not the best PF defender we have. We'll probably have to go with Foster there
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Not if we want a defensive line up, as this tread talks about. Theres no way Dunleavy would be in the lineup if we are in the need for defensive stops. Theres better players on teh roster than Dunleavy (at SF) that can bring the defensive intensity we'll need.

    As for Granger at PF, he is a good defender, but he is definately not the best PF defender we have. We'll probably have to go with Foster there
    I understand your point, but if JOB plans to use a PURELY defensive lineup at the end, he would have had Foster in last night, not Murph.

    That's why I wonder if the closing five might actually end up with Dun at three and Danny at the four.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    The best defensive lineup has less to do with how good the players are individually, than it does with how well the players complement each other in the team defense.

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    The best defensive lineup has less to do with how good the players are individually, than it does with how well the players complement each other in the team defense.
    You didn't say this but I'm asking: do you think, then, that Murph makes our team better defensively, teamwise, than Foster?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You didn't say this but I'm asking: do you think, then, that Murph makes our team better defensively, teamwise, than Foster?
    Initial instinct would be, "No", but I didn't see them play...them being the unit mentioned specifically.

    My only point was that it was conceivable that inserting Foster (the better individual defender) for Murphy did not necessarily mean that the defense would get better as a whole.

    It's difficult to prove one way or the other, but you could make an argument that if you were to put Artest on those late '90's teams, replacing either Rose or Mullin, the team defense could get worse. Artest was a spectacular individual player, but he tended to go on his own hook. While this may be effective against his player, it could expose the weakness of the other players on the floor, making the defense less effective.

    If Foster would weaken the team concept, the exposure of the other players could outweigh his own personal advantage. I'm in no way saying that this is definitely true, and I'm not implying that Foster (in this instance) would be selfish or a bad teammate. I'm simply saying that some players' styles fit better with others.

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I understand your point, but if JOB plans to use a PURELY defensive lineup at the end, he would have had Foster in last night, not Murph.

    That's why I wonder if the closing five might actually end up with Dun at three and Danny at the four.
    werent we actually losing last night near the end of the game? I think you would want your best defensive lineup when youre not concerned about putting points up, but rather making sure that the opponent doesnt score anymore points.
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    The best defensive lineup has less to do with how good the players are individually, than it does with how well the players complement each other in the team defense.
    Nice theory. Maybe this group is just the right mix:

    Sarunas - PG
    Flip - SG
    Dun - SF
    Murph - PF
    John Edwards - C

    I know, I know. They are not very good individual defenders, but as Bird would say "you just never know...maybe they will be lockdown as a team".

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    werent we actually losing last night near the end of the game? I think you would want your best defensive lineup when youre not concerned about putting points up, but rather making sure that the opponent doesnt score anymore points.
    Your switching up on me.

    Let's try it this way:

    At the end of games, are we better with Dun and Granger at the 3 and 4 or with Granger and Murph?

    I'm saying Dun and Granger would be better.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Your switching up on me.

    Let's try it this way:

    At the end of games, are we better with Dun and Granger at the 3 and 4 or with Granger and Murph?

    I'm saying Dun and Granger would be better.
    What Im trying to get at here is, if we need points on the board (if we're trailing) then we might want to have Dunleavy on. If we're winning the game by a few points and need key defensive stops, Dunleavy should not be on becaues theres guys on the roster that can play better defense than him
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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    What Im trying to get at here is, if we need points on the board (if we're trailing) then we might want to have Dunleavy on. If we're winning the game by a few points and need key defensive stops, Dunleavy should not be on becaues theres guys on the roster that can play better defense than him
    Like Murphy?

    Or not?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers best defensive lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Like Murphy?

    Or not?
    I'd perfer Foster over Murphy at PF, if we didnt need any more points and just needed defensive stops to close out a game
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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