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Thread: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Ok, this will probably be a short one as I have to be up in a few hours.

    Before I talk about the game, I want to deal with the post game call in show.

    Look guys, before anybody calls me out for going back on my words about not talking about things from the past I want to say this. Both Denari and Kevin Lee were making a point to say this stuff so I think it is more than newsworthy.

    For the Jermaine O'Neal fans in the audiance you might want to skip over this.

    BTW, this was not from callers prodding this. They both spoke about this and at differant times.

    When Kevin was discussing who the Pacers would let go vs. keep the topic came up of Austin. I'll spare you the specifics of his thoughts on this, but at one point in time he hypothisized about Austin being kept around for leadership.

    Kevin Lee then made it a point to say, unprovoked, that this time around Austin could be a leader because the last time he was here Jermaine O'Neal was the SELF annointed leader of the team and would not allow for Austin to be a leader. He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that (& this is the part I found fascinating) MANY of the players resented this.

    Denari was on later talking about his conversation with Roy Hibbert. He stated that Roy said that he felt obligated to play well because both Rasho and Jeff had gone out of their way to help him be a better player and that neither of them were resentfull or competing with him for min. on the floor. BTW, this converastion say's a lot (& I mean a LOT) about Foster & Rasho not to mention Roy.

    Then Denari goes on to make this statement (again unproked from a caller). He said that this is the single biggest change he has seen from the team over the past couple of years. You have players playing for each other and helping each other get better and that there is no hidden agenda's or some players trying to keep other players down.

    You can take that as you want to, however listening to the conversation the context certainly screamed Jermain O'Neal to me.

    I said on here about 4-5 years ago that when he was gone people would start to hear about some of the behind the scenes shinnanigans he was pulling. I think this is just the beginning and believe me from what I've heard over the years this is just the tip of the ice berg.

    Ok, now back to the game.

    I'll say it right now.

    Every min. that Marquis Daniels is on the floor this season, is a min. that should go to Brandon Rush.

    Look I don't know the guy from Adam because I don't follow college ball. But I think I know a pro basketball player when I see one and certainly during that game I saw a pro basketball player.

    Uncle Buck wasn't at this game so he missed out on what surely would have been one of his favorite things. Defense being played on the wings.

    Look we can all gush over Hibbert all we want, and believe me I will, but let us not overlook that game by Rush. Forget the sweet stroke he was putting up because we all know that can come and go, focus on that defense he was playing. The guy was downright disrupting play. He was deflecting passes, he was blocking shots, he was using that massive wingspan to make the guards throw sloppy passes.

    Overall this was not the defense played by a rookie. Hell this was some of the best wing defense since, well since Satan roamed our courts. Yes, I know Artest. I'm trying to block him from my mind.

    Anyway again I will say if this guy can play 1/3 as well during the regular season we have one hell of a find.

    Hibbert. Anything you want to say about him is probably true. He just took over in the second half and started to play above and beyond the Memphis big men.

    I don't want to get caught up in the hyperbole surrounding him right now, but I want to say this.

    I love to watch Roy Hibbert play basketball. Frankly, it's just fun to watch.

    As to people complaining about him getting two boards off of tipping on the offensive end. Meh... Foster would lose about half of his rebounds if we only counted true rebounds anyway over the years so I think we can let Roy have these two.

    He is getting better on defense. He is not losing his player while chasing the ball like he did the first couple of games.

    He can pass, he can shoot, he can block and he can crow. By God, HE IS THE PAN!!!!

    However while each of them playing individually was fun to watch, nothing can beat the give and go and pick and roll these two were running together.

    I kept seeing that and thinking to myself, this is the franchise for the next 5-8 years and I like it.

    Also am I wrong here or did the offense seem differant last nigh? No, not just the fact that we were actually hitting shots. I mean did it look more structured and less garbage sling the three that I have come to know and loath?

    Could just be that Memphis sucks at defense so maybe, but something about this looked differant.

    Ok, while it is great to see the rookies go at it let us not forget another player who was outstanding.

    THAT is the Jaret Jack that I thought we were getting. This guy just downright tore up the Memphis back court with his defense. He and Rush together were just downright murder on the Griz. His offense was outstanding as well. He seemed much more in control of the team when he was on the floor. He didn't hit a single field goal but I believe he was a catalyst for our teams success in the second half.

    Just think a year ago p.g. was our weakest single spot on the floor. Now it is one of our strengths. Bird has done an outstanding job of rebuilding this train wreck with the assets he had available.

    In reality there was no bad player for our team. Everybody that played contributed.

    To me though, if I were to make a choice as to the single biggest differance between this game and other is the team defense. We were very very very disruptive to the Grizzlies.

  2. #2
    Mr. Clutch granger33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Kevin Lee then made it a point to say, unprovoked, that this time around Austin could be a leader because the last time he was here Jermaine O'Neal was the SELF annointed leader of the team and would not allow for Austin to be a leader. He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that (& this is the part I found fascinating) MANY of the players resented this.
    wow, thats very interesting. very. Does this somehow involve Reggie in anyway? Did Jermaine take the leadership over Reggie?

    I love to watch Roy Hibbert play basketball. Frankly, it's just fun to watch.
    Ah me too man. Much wrather watching Roy Hibbert Post up then JO did in the past 2 seasons. JO was a great contributor. But c'mon, in the past 2 seasons he did nothing but watch on the sidelines and miss clutch shots. He has always had great character and I know he loved Indiana at heart, I mean before that he was my favourite player in the league. But he has really just gone down hill from the brawl and I am very pleased and excited for what Larry Bird has done to this team. The Past 2 seasons I wasn't really excited. But with Brandon Rush, Big Roy Hibbert coming off the bench I am truley excited.

    Picturing Mike Dunleavy's 1st year in the playoffs, Danny's 1st year in there as a leader with all the new rookies just gives me shivers.

    Great Post Peck but you did lie once.

    Ok, this will probably be a short one as I have to be up in a few hours
    Last edited by granger33; 10-18-2008 at 05:08 AM.

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    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    It would be nice to think that Hibbert and Rush could capture the imagination of the Indiana public...combine it with a return to the playoffs (a win or three couldn't hurt), and I could see attendance and caring in general begin to return to reggie-levels.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by granger33 View Post
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    Great Post Peck but you did lie once.
    He didn't lie, that was a short one for Peck.

    It appears to me we don't really need a post presence, we have guys that can score in the paint. Nest(?) and Hibbert.

    We have guards that can not only score but play defense. Jack, Rush, Ford.

    So . . . if we have someone that can finish games and be our go to guy we are going to contend. By that I mean we are going to be smack dab in the middle of the playoffs.

    I'm ready to pay Tinsley off and go with this team.

    Now for the flip side . . . I still remember when Tinsley opened the season with 23 assists . . . who knew that would be the highlite of his Pacer career? Or maybe his highlite was the dustpan? Hmmm . . .

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Peck, I think Rush's style of play is going to render him the kind of player we'll take for granted even if he peaks.

    Rush at his peak I see as a good defender with a sweet stroke, but not a whole lot of ability to drive to the hoop and slam it in someone's face on a regular basis. A glue guy that does things on a nightly basis that help the team win, but rarely makes the highlight reels.

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Good post Peck. Only thing I'll disagree with (because we've had this conversation a billion times) is that Jermaine wasn't the self-appointed leader in any sense. Reggie (and Thomas, if I remember correctly) was shoving that mantle on him almost as soon as he got here.

    But yes, I agree that I'd love for Marquis to get his minutes behind Rush instead of vice versa.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    The thing is, I think JO felt obligated to try and be the leader due to his massive deal. I think he looked at the situation and said hey, I am making 20+ mil a year and I need to step up and be a leader for this team. I don't know that ever happened. I saw a quote/comment from Walsh or Bird a few weeks ago saying something along the lines of "the highest paid player isn't automatically your leader" and I wondered if it was a shot at JO?

    With that said, I LOVE the way the young guys and the team are getting along and seem to be gelling. People want to talk about Portland and their young nucleus, but don't forget about Indy. With guys like Rush, Hibbert, Granger, Jack, Ford and even Dunleavy and even to a lesser extent role players in Diener, McRoberts, Graham, etc. the Pacers are on the right track in terms of building a cohesive unit.

  8. #8
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Good post Peck. Only thing I'll disagree with (because we've had this conversation a billion times) is that Jermaine wasn't the self-appointed leader in any sense. Reggie (and Thomas, if I remember correctly) was shoving that mantle on him almost as soon as he got here.

    But yes, I agree that I'd love for Marquis to get his minutes behind Rush instead of vice versa.
    Maybe they should've said that JO failed at leadership but refused to relinquish the role to players who were better liked by their teammates and were capable of naturally assuming the role. JO's failures both as a player and a leader, and refusal to acknowledge these shortcomings, ended up causing resentment.

    I realize it's only the preseason but a weight just seems lifted from the team. I'm willing to bet a big part of that weight is in Toronto. Another part of it is at home collecting 21 million dollars. Whatever it is, I like what I see so far.

    I have no idea why a Chicago J is down on TJ Ford... unless it's all worry about his ability to play with his spine problem. Ford is clearly starting material.
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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    It appears to me we don't really need a post presence, we have guys that can score in the paint. Nest(?) and Hibbert.
    I'm hoping and crossing my fingers on that one.

    Wouldn't that solve a bunch of problems?

    This is interesting stuff about Jermaine holding back other leaders. What a clusterF... that whole thing was. Looking forward to the future.

    Peck is the microwave of PD. Posts very irregularly, but when he does, it's always interesting.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    I'm drinking me some of that Hibbert Ade with a side of TJ Ford Wings.

    I spent a lot of time watching Roy and noticed one of the huge differences between him and the usual BWS (in which category I include Harrison as an honorary member).

    He has ankles that move.

    Far too many times, someone with size and bulk will come down flat on their entire foot, while running and jumping. Rasho does it a lot, Harrision did it, even Rik tended to do it.

    Hibbert actually elevates onto the ball of his foot and uses it as a pivot point. When he runs, he doesn't look like he is gallumphing down the court. In other owrds, he seems more flexible.

    There were a couple of situations where Harrison would have been called for a foul that Roy avoided by actually using his body to move the potentially offending appendage (arm once, legs once) out of the way. I was very happy to see that - the main one being when he went up over (defender I can't remember) and actually pushed his own legs back to avoid giving a charge. What a great move.

    And Ford running the point - I'm loving me some speed and agility and court vision. His size causes some matchup problems defensively but his speed makes up for a lot on the offensive side.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    You'll be happy to know the enthusiasm of this thread traveled more than 6,000 miles. My only regret is that, unless something changes, I will not be able to hear any of it.

    Peck, you and I usually see things through the same eyes. This was a great post.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Maybe they should've said that JO failed at leadership but refused to relinquish the role to players who were better liked by their teammates and were capable of naturally assuming the role. JO's failures both as a player and a leader, and refusal to acknowledge these shortcomings, ended up causing resentment.
    I agree with this, to an extent. Reggie pushed it on JO, then Larry publicly declared JO as the leader, he failed, and then followed the resentment.

    Back to Peck's o.p., Austin WAS the leader of the '05-'06 team. Austin was calling team-only meetings and the players were responding to him. I wish I dig up some of his post-game quotes.

    I am 100% certain that this conflict is one of the reasons that Austin was traded to Dallas. There's no way we were getting rid of Jermaine, and he was unwilling to share leadership. Of course this is all speculation, but like Peck, I expect that we'll continue to hear stories of the past that confirm this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I have no idea why a Chicago J is down on TJ Ford... unless it's all worry about his ability to play with his spine problem. Ford is clearly starting material.

    I assume J is down on both Ford and Jack because they both "lost" their starting PG jobs.

    I'm still dumbfounded as to why Calderon and Blake were starting. I think both coaches made mistakes, and I'm relieved the Pacers are sitting here with Ford and Jack instead of Calderon and Blake.

    TJ Ford might be the best player on our team. Even a majority of fans in Toronto though Ford was better than Calderon. There was a thread on the Toronto boards about who should be traded. Almost 100% of the pro-Calderon posters would've traded Ford based on his health, not his basketball playing. And after the trade, the tone in that thread changed to "maybe we shouldn't have traded him". Knowing the way we talk about traded players around here, I think that speaks volumes.

    Aside from the illusion that he's injury-prone, one of the biggest knocks on TJ is that he is prone to calling his own number (like Tinsley). I think it's a valid knock, but I don't think O'Brien will mind, especially on a team without a go-to player.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Ok, this will probably be a short one as I have to be up in a few hours.



    He can pass, he can shoot, he can block and he can crow. By God, HE IS THE PAN!!!!
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by granger33 View Post
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    JO was a great contributor. But c'mon, in the past 2 seasons he did nothing but watch on the sidelines and miss clutch shots.
    As much as I don't like Jermaine, this simply isn't true. 2 years ago, Jermaine was a legitimated contender for Defensive Player of the Year. Even with his missed games, I believe he should've won the award over Camby.

    And I thought he showed significant progress last year, even on one leg. It was the most I've ever seen him involve/defer to other players. There's no way we go 11-5 to close the year without Jermaine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    Now for the flip side . . . I still remember when Tinsley opened the season with 23 assists . . . who knew that would be the highlite of his Pacer career? Or maybe his highlite was the dustpan? Hmmm . . .
    He did that in the Thanksgiving night game vs. MJ and the Wizards. It was one of the best individual games I've seen in person. Rookie Tinsley was a completely different player.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Maybe they should've said that JO failed at leadership but refused to relinquish the role to players who were better liked by their teammates and were capable of naturally assuming the role. JO's failures both as a player and a leader, and refusal to acknowledge these shortcomings, ended up causing resentment.
    I totally agree. Yes Reggie and probably Larry pushed JO to be a leader, but considering he refused to call himself a center he should have refused to be the leader and let those who could actually be leaders take on that role. Instead of worrying about his ego he could have said "I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. Austin (or someone else) is a great team leader. I'll do all I can to help get us to the championship" or something like that.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by mildlysane View Post
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    I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.
    At the time Reggie said that a lot of people around here assumed he was talking about Anthony Johnson.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    At the time Reggie said that a lot of people around here assumed he was talking about Anthony Johnson.
    I remember that quote and at the time I assumed he was talking about Tinsley. I have felt that since the brawl the only way this franchise was really going to "turn around" was to keep everyone a fresh start and cut out this "retooling" BS and "rebuild".

    With that said I was preparing for a project for a West Africa class with my fellow group members when a few of their friends walked up. They started talking basketball and I mentioned I wished I could watch more but as of late I have not had time. They asked who my team was and I replied "The Pacers". Two of them looked at me before the one said "Indiana still has a basketball team?". (for the record he claimed he was a Celtics fan) We are heading in the right direction but we still have a lot of work to do.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by mildlysane View Post
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    I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.
    I've quoted that line of Reggie's myself. It was something to the effect that Artest was not the biggest problem on that team. One of my first thoughts was O'Neal, and I still think so. Another thought was about the unequal treatment of the players by Carlisle, but I don't think that was what he really had in mind. Do you remember when the Pacers traded James Jones that Reggie also made the statement that JJ was one of the few players that would listen to him?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    What a draft !!!!!! Bayless who ?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    He did that in the Thanksgiving night game vs. MJ and the Wizards. It was one of the best individual games I've seen in person. Rookie Tinsley was a completely different player.
    Beginnning of the sophmore year was good too. Everything changed when his mom died.
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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Now.....what was poor Jeff Foster saying shortly after the trade?

    Maybe Kevin Lee can help clarify: "He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that MANY of the players resented this."

    Many? HOW MANY? Now, that doesn't make for a happy locker room, now does it?

    Of course, no amount of evidence...

  23. #23

    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Now.....what was poor Jeff Foster saying shortly after the trade?

    Maybe Kevin Lee can help clarify: "He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that MANY of the players resented this."

    Many? HOW MANY? Now, that doesn't make for a happy locker room, now does it?

    Of course, no amount of evidence...

    There were so many problems that it's hard to keep track.

    We've heard:

    -Foster's comments on O'Neal
    -Saras' comments on Fred Jones/other teammates
    -Anthony Johnson's post-playoff comments
    -Kevin Lee's comments last night
    -Larry's post-trade leadership comments
    -Reggie's post retirement comments
    -Austin's late season ('05-'06) comments


    What else?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Beginnning of the sophmore year was good too. Everything changed when his mom died.
    This is true. The 2nd half of that season was one of the most depressing halves.

  25. #25
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the last pre-season home game of the year

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    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    At the time Reggie said that a lot of people around here assumed he was talking about Anthony Johnson.
    Mostly because AJ was showing a post-Pacers track record to make this seem likely. Let's not let a JO scapegoat protect the many other issues in the lockerroom, and in fairness to JO the guy running this thread has had a Dale vs JO grudge since day 1. I don't discount Peck's opinion or that he might be right, but let's also keep the viewpoints on the table where everyone can see them. If you go into something looking for issues you are going to find them.

    It's not like the team has yet run off a massive streak of wins, just like removing Rick didn't magically fix one damn thing last year.

    To me this is typical new season stuff: all the problems were the other guys, that was last year, and so on. I'm not anti-optimism, I just don't want it to come at the expense of rational thought.

    JO took a lot of charges and played with pain many times, as well as hurrying back from injuries. Maybe his ego caused problems enough to counter all that good but let's not string him up as all that was wrong.

    By adding up the attitudes of Tins, JO, Ron, AJ and Harrington it sounds like to me Rick Carlisle (yes, this is my personal agenda I admit) must have been the greatest coach ever to not only salvage the season but to win 61 games with the worst teammates ever to coexist in a locker room. Let's not forget the existance of the two headed front office at the time.


    TWO
    That bit of commentary doesn't mean I haven't seen every move other than the Williams deal to be a good one this year. And with Williams it's more a case of a forced deal just for the sake of doing it rather than riding it out to see what develops with a vastly different set of influences in the locker room. I'm not asking for JO to return and I'm very pleased with that trade...I'm the one who ran up the "I don't care if Hibbert flops" thread for chrissake, I'm supportive as hell on this topic.

    Let's just be sensible about the blame game. Clearly something was working prior to the GS trade enough to hold things together when they shouldn't have. Maybe it wasn't Dun/Troy coming that was the issue but a sour JO/Tins following the loss of Jack/Al, but that only shows that the disfunction could be made to produce to a degree.


    THREE
    Look I don't know the guy from Adam because I don't follow college ball. But I think I know a pro basketball player when I see one and certainly during that game I saw a pro basketball player.
    Take a look back now to that college prospect thread and check it for my posts on Rush then. I still strongly believe in his game transferring to the pros. He stood out, just keep the expectations to 6th man, modest starter with an all-around game.

    BTW, same with Mayo, Love and yes Bayless. This was a pretty decent draft class. And if Hibbert stays on course and continues to maximize his ability to fit the NBA game it will be even more impressive (I was in the smart, good guy but too slow camp).

    Last year people wanted to tank and hold onto that Acie Law pick. Keep that foresight in mind when they start drumming up that racket this year or in the future, especially when we compare Jarret Jack/BRush to Acie Law since that's the compromise that would have been made if they'd tanked to #10 for the prior draft.

    The Pacers lost a pick in a thinner draft and got into a solid one, despite the hype being basically opposite of that. Heck, deep down I would even be willing to credit Bird for being that savvy if it could be proven somehow.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 10-18-2008 at 04:22 PM.

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