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Thread: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Count,

    That's fair. In my imaginary I've-never-actually-had-a-conversation-with-any-of-these-guys world, I'm convinced that Rush and Hibbert are mentally tough enough to handle playing time and responsibility right now.

    To me, they both are oozing maturity.
    At my old job, we called what we are doing "violently agreeing".

    I do love both of these guys. I also agree with what you're saying here. In fact, in my earlier post, I put it this way:

    Quote Originally Posted by count55
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    Not every player develops best in the same way. It does seem likely that Rush and Hibbert have the temperament to deal with the certain failures associated with the experiment proposed, but this is definitely not a wise approach in all cases.
    I'm just not quite in the "this-has-to-happen-now-Nikita-Kruschev-pounding-my-shoe-on-the-table" camp...at the moment.

    (I also must admit that I probably am reacting from a little residual weariness from the incessant "Play Ike! Play Ike!" drumbeat I heard from some quarters on RGM last year. It's not the same situation, but it has a faintly similar aroma.)

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Since money has been mentioned I will ask:
    Is it better (financially) to throw the kitchen sink at each individual game hoping for a few more wins and a spot in the playoffs in order to maximize butts in the seats in any one season... or is it better to allow some losses in the short term to (hopefully) build a better team for the long run?
    In a perfect world I would settle for both.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    (I also must admit that I probably am reacting from a little residual weariness from the incessant "Play Ike! Play Ike!" drumbeat I heard from some quarters on RGM last year. It's not the same situation, but it has a faintly similar aroma.)
    I spent last season on PD's injured reserve/ inactive list, so I can't take the blame for that.
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  4. #54
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Since money has been mentioned I will ask:
    Is it better (financially) to throw the kitchen sink at each individual game hoping for a few more wins and a spot in the playoffs in order to maximize butts in the seats in any one season... or is it better to allow some losses in the short term to (hopefully) build a better team for the long run?
    The short answer is long run is better.

    The long answer is that the long run is better, but there are many, many competing considerations, including the job security of the coaches, the players, and the management.

    The pivot point is whether there is a coherent, clearly articulated long-term plan or not. If not, then, really, there is nothing more important than today's game (because you don't have anything else)...at least until the next leadership team comes along.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I spent last season on PD's injured reserve/ inactive list, so I can't take the blame for that.
    Yeah, I was on RealGM (RGM), not here, as well. That's what I was saying (though I'm sure they got a little rhythm of the night over here as well.)

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...



    I don't know why I keep getting into this discussion, it's like trying to dig a well in a sandpit.

    Yes, we need to have a plan for the future.

    Yes, we need to make sure the players most likely to develop get plenty of time to do so.

    No, we can't simply make sure we suck for 5 years and then jump straight to a championship.

    No, this city (or any city other than perhaps New York or Chicago) won't put up with 3 or 4 more years of struggling on the floor while the PR machine grinds out "but we are preparing for the future by stinking!" ads.

    You have to win 40 games before you can win 41, or 42, or 43...

    You can't just give the "young guys" playing time, you have to give them experience at winning as well. It's called "an atmosphere of success".

    Winning each individual game is just as important as developing players, particularly in these economic times and with the current state of the franchise.

    Winning a few extra games and getting into the playoffs after a 2-year drought is not going to destroy the future of the Pacers. It may, however, spur more positive interest in the team and make for a better fan base which is capable of supporting longer-term plans.

    As I've said before, I don't want to sacrifice to losing for the supposed good of the future if it becomes a legacy leading to the first championship of the Las Vegas Pacers.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Our best chance at a winning environment THIS season is letting Rush and Hibbert grow up over the next six months.

    I'm telling you, the veterans on this team (Ford, Dunleavy, Daniels, Foster/ Murphy/ Rasho) can't make the playoffs in the EC and they have no upside. I'm not including Danny in that list, he's in my "future core" list.

    You can't act like Sam Nassi still owns the team when the Simons are still involved and have given no indication of selling.

    The Colts will be in Los Angeles long before the Pacers move anywhere.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    For what it's worth: The attendance last night looked worse than it did the first preseason game at Conseco last year.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Our best chance at a winning environment THIS season is letting Rush and Hibbert grow up over the next six months.

    I'm telling you, the veterans on this team (Ford, Dunleavy, Daniels, Foster/ Murphy/ Rasho) can't make the playoffs in the EC and they have no upside. I'm not including Danny in that list, he's in my "future core" list.

    You can't act like Sam Nassi still owns the team when the Simons are still involved and have given no indication of selling.

    The Colts will be in Los Angeles long before the Pacers move anywhere.
    Despite having a disaster at PG and JO missing most of the season, those veterens minus Ford and Rasho missed the playoffs by 1 game last season. They might not make the playoffs this season but to say unquestionably that they cant make the playoffs and have no upside is a bit over the top.

    Rush and Hibbert should earn their minutes like anyone else. Developing team chemistry and a winning mentality is just as important as the rookies developing their game.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Many of you that are advocating just throwing Rush and Hibbert out there were the same people who said the same thing about David Harrison. Seemingly all I heard for several seasons is all he needs is time, let him play through his foul trouble - all he needs is a big man coach - just play him so we build towards the future.

    My point is - before we throw anyone out there, lets make sure they are sane first, NBA players second and worth playing in the first place. As it turns out every second Harrison played was a total waste of time.

    Besides that it isn't fair to the other players who are busting their butts to play a rookie just because someday he might be better - a coach will lose all respect with his players very quickly doing that

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    I agree. Let them earn their spots. The only time it's bad that they don't play is if they deserve it and the coach refuses to do it because he has a crush on vets and thinks rookies can't handle it.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I'm telling you, the veterans on this team (Ford, Dunleavy, Daniels, Foster/ Murphy/ Rasho) can't make the playoffs in the EC and they have no upside.
    Jay, I don't think you can't just slide Ford in there like he's one of the guys.

    First of all, he wasn't here last year. Second of all, he's very good. He may be our best player now.

    As SkyFire pointed out, we only missed the playoffs by one game last year. And then we added Ford.
    .

    .

    .

    .


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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Ford has never missed the playoffs in his career. And the bucks haven't made it since he left, if im not mistaken.

    J, I don't know if you have been watching Ford's numbers, but he is a very good player. I know you are convinced otherwise for some reason, but come on... get real.
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    -snip- a coach will lose all respect with his players very quickly doing that
    Doesn't matter. You'll change coaches when these guys are much closer to contending for an ECF berth. Right now, you need a "willling to develop the young guys" coach. I think Jim O'Brien, who is starting Rush in preseason games and chastised Rush and Hibbert during their introductory press conferences to come to camp ready to compete for starting spots, is the type of coach that you want to be dedicated to player development.

    Secondly, if the veterans are upset about it, trade them. They aren't part of the rebuilding movement anyway, they are just taking a roster spot and taking minutes away from the future of the team.

    Somebody else will get them over the top.

    The coach is always the easiest guy to replace on an NBA team. When it isn't working out any more, when the relationship breaks down, move on.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I agree. Let them earn their spots. The only time it's bad that they don't play is if they deserve it and the coach refuses to do it because he has a crush on vets and thinks rookies can't handle it.
    And we know that Obie is not like that.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    As SkyFire pointed out, we only missed the playoffs by one game last year. And then we added Ford.
    And thank goodness we also added Jack, so that when Ford's history of losing his starting spot repeats itself, we have still upgraded over Deiner, who is a a fine third-stringer, of course.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  17. #67
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Doesn't matter. You'll change coaches when these guys are much closer to contending for an ECF berth. Right now, you need a "willling to develop the young guys" coach. [B]I think Jim O'Brien, who is starting Rush in preseason games and chastised Rush and Hibbert during their introductory press conferences to come to camp ready to compete for starting spots, is the type of coach that you want to be dedicated to player development.
    IMHO.....I think that if Marquis or Dunleavy wasn't injured over the last 2 games that they would have been starting or playing ahead of BRush in the SG/SF rotation. That doesn't mean that I think that BRush wouldn't be getting minutes....he'll just be getting whatever minutes that Graham is currently getting.

    However, between Hibbert and BRush though, I suspect that Hibbert will be the one getting more overall minutes in his rookie season than BRush ( probably between 15-20 mpg ). Part of it is simply because he possesses a different skillset then Murphy and Foster ( maybe even closer to what Rasho provides...which appears to be a good fit in JO'Bs offense ) but also because I suspect that Foster will be limited in the number of minutes he plays due to whatever recurring back injuries that he gets.
    Last edited by CableKC; 10-16-2008 at 11:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And thank goodness we also added Jack, so that when Ford's history of losing his starting spot repeats itself, we have still upgraded over Deiner, who is a a fine third-stringer, of course.
    Ford is clearly better than jack, and its not close.
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Back to the initial topic, I still think it is wrong to give Hibbert the starting job just because you want to play for the future.

    However...

    I also think that his performance thus far has improved his chances of getting the starting role, and sustaining will only make that achievement happen sooner. I now think that it is a realistic possibility that he will win the start job on his merits at some point this season.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Why, yes, I suppose getting a new coach would suddenly cause all the disgruntled vets who play rings around the young guys but spend the year on the bench staring at their toes to love the game again. After all, these guys spent years developing their game and floor instincts for nothing because they aren't top 10 players and are therefore worthless.
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    But our vets are not going to be playing rings around Hibbert and Rush even when those two are rookies.

    All the more reason to move Daniels, Foster, and perhaps Murphy this February (if not sooner.)

    Rasho's already an expiring contract and a one-year rental/ mentor, so he doesn't even matter to this discussion.

    With Dunleavy, I'm saying to make him the sixth-man now, instead of waiting a year to do so. If he's going to pout or go into a funk when Rush takes over, then figure it out now and decide to either move Mike to SF and Danny to the bench or decide to trade one of them. That's a next-summer move, though.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  22. #72
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    But our vets are not going to be playing rings around Hibbert and Rush even when those two are rookies.
    Then in that case they've earned the starting positions and the minutes, so where is the argument? Not a single person in this thread has said to sit the rooks no matter how good they are.

    I don't want to see them pushed beyond their conditioning (a situation in Tinsley's first year that I suspect has contributed to his fragility both physically and mentally since). I want to see them get their time, but I want them to have to earn it like anyone else AND I don't want a vet to be benched just because he's not got 5-7 more years in the league.

    I want to see the ones on the floor who are playing the best. If that's the rookies, great.
    BillS

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  23. #73
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    I think , that so far .. Hibbert has shown he can contribute right away , and help this team WIN... I say , let's keep giving him the same 15 to 20 mpg over the first half of the season and see how consistant he is , and how his conditioning responds to it...

    I also say that if a player is playing excellently , to keep them on the floor.. Don't pull the time limit bullcrap , just to appease veterans who may or may not be playing as well at the time..

    I have always stood by the adage , that if a player is on fire in a particular game.. you DO NOT bench him and chance he loses his rhythm he has going ..

    That is one of my BIGGEST complaints when Carlisle was coach.
    For example Stephen Graham , Ike or Sarunas come in and are on the floor and one of them have a HOT hand....
    scoring 6 points in a minute and a half's time .. coming back from an 8 point deficit.. and within 2 points of tying the game with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter.....

    To my UTTER DISMAY , Carlisle would immediately take the hot handed player(s) OUT of the game, and insert his starters back in , (regardless of how bad their fg% was that game) , and we would end up LOSING the damn game by something like 4 to 8 points ...

    I can't tell you how many times I wanted to throw something through my tv screen when that would happen... and it happened quite abit during the Carlisle and Thomas era of the Pacers.. (both clearly had favortism in appeasing their starting 5 , in my opinion)

    I just hope JOB is a good enough coach , and is smart enough to keep the players in the game , whom are on fire , and not take them out , unless it is truly needed
    (for example..player fatigue)


    If Hibbert is on fire , and really helping on the court , offensively OR defensively .. he should be kept on the floor if it means the difference beteen winning or losing the game...
    Last edited by Kemo; 10-17-2008 at 07:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Many of you that are advocating just throwing Rush and Hibbert out there were the same people who said the same thing about David Harrison. Seemingly all I heard for several seasons is all he needs is time, let him play through his foul trouble - all he needs is a big man coach - just play him so we build towards the future.

    My point is - before we throw anyone out there, lets make sure they are sane first, NBA players second and worth playing in the first place. As it turns out every second Harrison played was a total waste of time.

    Besides that it isn't fair to the other players who are busting their butts to play a rookie just because someday he might be better - a coach will lose all respect with his players very quickly doing that
    I agree 100% with this.

    In general I don't really like the idea of relying on rookies. High risk low rewards move, IMO.

    Hopefully Hibbert and Rush can get on the court on a nightly basis. And if Roy ends up earning a starting spot during the season than great. But as I see things right now we have three big men ahead of Roy in the rotation. I don't get excited over preseason or single regular season games. I wanna see what they can do night in and night out.

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