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Thread: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

  1. #1

    Default Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Getting to the meat of this is Nesterovic is in the last year of his contract, and while he is a serviceable center, I doubt very much the Pacers are going to commit to him for the long term. Foster, on the other hand, is here for awhile, and it's likely slated eventually for a very solid bench role once Hibbert gets more seasoning. The key to this is where the Pacers will fall in the standings.

    I'm tired of mediocrity as a fan. As someone who coaches, I've always believed if the best you can do is mediocrity, go young. It's not a reflection on Foster or Nesterovic. If this Pacers team was going to compete for a championship, I would want Foster in the starting line up right from the start, as I have since the day they let Brad Miller go.

    This team isn't going to get to that level.

    Hibbert may never be a marquee center, but with his skill set at 7'2", he could be another Rik Smits, just enough of a presence as he becomes a veteran, that you must game plan against him. He will eventually need a body next to him who is at least another defensive presence and at the very least complimentary to his offensive skill set.

    Reports are that Hibbert's low post is going to be NBA caliber, and anyone who saw him in college knows he is an excellent passer with a good mid range jump shot. Without a strong low post game, he would be great with an active PF type, such as what Antonio Davis was in his prime, or even an undersized player such as David West.

    Moving to Brandon Rush, it would be nice to see him start too, but I would be happy with him being the first wing off the bench. I'd like to see Granger and Dunleavy at the SF and PF positions. Troy Murphy is a horrible defender, and offensively he is merely a spot shooter. Given the defensive deficiency, I'd much rather have Granger guarding bigger players because at least he would create match-up problems on the other end. That would allow Rush to move into the starting SG spot.

    While I could see the Pacers going with a more traditional starting line-up, keeping Murphy in there, I would hope the Pacers would throw mediocrity to the wind and make sure Rush plays. The Pacers finally have an heir apparent to Reggie Miller at SG, someone who is young, and someone who can play defense. I hope he doesn't dwindle on the bench for the sake of moving from 35 to 42 wins.

    If the Pacers do worse because of it, so be it. They get good experience, and the Pacers get a better shot at a good draft pick. The season won't be wasted because of the experience factor, and players like Ford, Granger, and Dunleavy are young enough that they could still be part of the winning in a couple of years.

    If the Pacers come out even, then it's a complete success.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Nice read there, Jim.

    I will tell you that I will have to disagree with you on that Hibbert may never be a marquee center, I think he has all the skills and determination in the world to make himself a top player in his postition in the NBA.

    Roy displays the raw talent and discipline needed to grow as a player, and that could easily rub off on Brandon and a few of the other players. They will start to mimic him on the court, and in the community.

    I feel that the best is yet to come, yes, but this year is going to be a proving year.

    Good luck to our young players.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    I think if they both get 15 minutes off the bench this year, everybody will get most of what they want.
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Do you think Hibbert's ready for an 82-game season? Most rookies aren't.

    I think if you start him and give him 25+ mpg right now, the dude crashes by the ASB.
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    I have to agree that both rooks need some quality playing time this year, but let's not rush them into the starting line-up because like Anthem said, they will hit that Rookie wall by the ASB.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Although I love the way he has handled himself in his 1st 3 games....I will hold judgement on him until we have a few more games under his belt before I annoint him a Starter.

    I loved his performance from yesterdays game....but keep in mind....this was against Darko ( who is Foul prone ) and Gasol along with a solid performance against a Bulls roster that had no real Big Man that could defend him. I'm trying not to diminish his performance by any means...cuz they were outstanding....but he hasn't really played against any real solid NBA caliber Big Men other then Chandler.

    If he continues to play this way....I think that we have found our 8th Man off the bench....ahead of both Marquis and Rush.....which could warrant about 15 minutes a game behind Murphy, Rasho and Foster.

    As for BRush, I think that he still has a ways to go. I am pretty sure that if Marquis was available yesterday, that he would have been getting more minutes over BRush against the likes of Gay and Mayo.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Roy has shown a lot of promise the first few games. The Pacers are going to allow Roy to see some PT this year, but you cannot expect him to come in and play 30 min a night consistently. He'll hit the rookie wall by January or February if he is playing extensively as he is not mentally and physically ready.

    The Pacers have the luxury of bringing Roy along slowly this year. I think there's a good chance he starts next year as I don't expect Rasho to resign (unless it's for cheap). But Roy has shown a lot of promise and I look for good things for him.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Do you think Hibbert's ready for an 82-game season? Most rookies aren't.

    I think if you start him and give him 25+ mpg right now, the dude crashes by the ASB.
    Agreed. It will be a long season for Hibbert.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothdave1 View Post
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    Roy has shown a lot of promise the first few games. The Pacers are going to allow Roy to see some PT this year, but you cannot expect him to come in and play 30 min a night consistently. He'll hit the rookie wall by January or February if he is playing extensively as he is not mentally and physically ready.

    The Pacers have the luxury of bringing Roy along slowly this year. I think there's a good chance he starts next year as I don't expect Rasho to resign (unless it's for cheap). But Roy has shown a lot of promise and I look for good things for him.
    That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to burn Roy out.....and given the depth that we have.....I don't feel the need to have him start over the likes of Rasho nor Foster. I would much rather give him the chance to make play so that he can make and learn from his mistakes.....but also want to make sure that we win games. Not to say that we can't win games while Roy plays....but unless he is absolutely dominating the opposing Frontcourt.....we don't have the luxury of letting Roy make a lot of mistakes that may cost us games.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Duke, I get your notion about him being a marquee center, but I'm aiming low and thinking he still has a chance to be strong. I always thought Smits underachieved, but if Hibbert is his equal, he will be a factor on both ends. I would hope Hibbert would rebound better than Smits, and if he does, he'll be a marquee center.

    To the others who have responded, I get the rookie wall issue, but I just don't see the down side to it. Again, going on the notion this team is at best mediocre, getting to and through that wall is necessary growth. It will eliminate some of that doubt next year when they will be counted on, in what would be expected to be a better year.

    The short term to me doesn't matter for this team. I'm not saying tank the season or not care about wins, but I want those wins to come with Hibbert and Rush on the floor. If they do, that means between Granger or Dunleavy, one of them can be used to secure a good caliber PF in the offseason because the Pacers are going to have cap room.

    I'd actually like to see them deal their #1 pick, protected to a point, with a Dunleavy or Granger AND Tinsley (get his butt off the books) for a stud PF, even if that trade doesn't happen until next summer. By then Tinsley's contract can be bait. If it has to be Granger, I'm OK with it.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim R View Post
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    Duke, I get your notion about him being a marquee center, but I'm aiming low and thinking he still has a chance to be strong. I always thought Smits underachieved, but if Hibbert is his equal, he will be a factor on both ends. I would hope Hibbert would rebound better than Smits, and if he does, he'll be a marquee center.

    To the others who have responded, I get the rookie wall issue, but I just don't see the down side to it. Again, going on the notion this team is at best mediocre, getting to and through that wall is necessary growth. It will eliminate some of that doubt next year when they will be counted on, in what would be expected to be a better year.

    The short term to me doesn't matter for this team. I'm not saying tank the season or not care about wins, but I want those wins to come with Hibbert and Rush on the floor. If they do, that means between Granger or Dunleavy, one of them can be used to secure a good caliber PF in the offseason because the Pacers are going to have cap room.

    I'd actually like to see them deal their #1 pick, protected to a point, with a Dunleavy or Granger AND Tinsley (get his butt off the books) for a stud PF, even if that trade doesn't happen until next summer. By then Tinsley's contract can be bait. If it has to be Granger, I'm OK with it.
    I don't mean to ask....but did you decide to essentially trade Granger for the type of PF that you are looking for based off of the 3 Preseason Games that Rush and Hibbert had?

    Don't get me wrong....I like what Rush did in that one game against the Bulls......and what Hibbert has done in the last 3 games...but I'm not ready to trade Granger given their performance.
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    With Rasho there may be an oppurtunity to move him for youth prospect. Maybe Yao goes down for a month and Houston offers a Landry for Yao.

    Rush and Hibbert will be part of the rotation but they are not ready to start. The preseason oasis maybe mirage. So I think that if we ease them into this it would benefit the future more than throwing them to the wolves.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    it'll take awhile before hibbert is ready for nba minutes. his conditioning isn't quite there yet. if he can maintain the determination, intensity, and work ethic he's shown thus far, i see no reason he can't become one of the better centers in the league capable of 35mpg. but he is still a rookie. 15-20mpg for the 1st half of the season is what i look for.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    From what I've seen, Hibbert has a Duncan-esque feel to him. Now before the annoying posters go crazy, l'm not comparing their skill levels just their styles. Hibbert has that intelligent poise to him and the same fundamentals you see out of a Tim Duncan, which is why I think he'll still be a damn good center despite his sub-par athleticism. Hard to believe that after all of the brain-dead athletic freaks that have flopped that skill and intelligence would become so underrated.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Rasho is definitely an interim solution at best and my best guess is that Hibbert is the future C of this team. But one year of coming off the bench is not going to hurt him. I say we ride Rasho as the starter for one year, than Roy can be the man going forward. As long as Roy gets a minimum of 15mpg, he will develop fine. The Pacers are not going to sit him if he keeps playing remotely at this level and with his maturity...so I'm not too worried about that. If he deserves to play, I'm sure he'll get some time out there.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Quis View Post
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    From what I've seen, Hibbert has a Duncan-esque feel to him. Now before the annoying posters go crazy, l'm not comparing their skill levels just their styles. Hibbert has that intelligent poise to him and the same fundamentals you see out of a Tim Duncan, which is why I think he'll still be a damn good center despite his sub-par athleticism. Hard to believe that after all of the brain-dead athletic freaks that have flopped that skill and intelligence would become so underrated.
    Yes, he has that...I don't know what to call it...deliberateness...calm yet aggressive intelligence...good head out thereness...big fundamentalness...

    Ok, I will say it: Duncan-esque. Now, let the thread go wild...

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Do you think Hibbert's ready for an 82-game season? Most rookies aren't.

    I think if you start him and give him 25+ mpg right now, the dude crashes by the ASB.
    This.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    I like what i see from the Big Man, but as said before, i'd prefer to see him comming of the bench and learning his trade against other teams second unit..

    Better for his confidence and his body...

    the dude has ten years (hopefully) to Start for Us... just get them double doubles Franchise


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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I don't mean to ask....but did you decide to essentially trade Granger for the type of PF that you are looking for based off of the 3 Preseason Games that Rush and Hibbert had?

    Don't get me wrong....I like what Rush did in that one game against the Bulls......and what Hibbert has done in the last 3 games...but I'm not ready to trade Granger given their performance.
    No, none of this is based on the preseason games. What it's based on is giving these two rookies plenty of time this year, throwing them into the fire in what will be an otherwise mediocre year, and see where it leads them. I'm saying after a full season you can get an inkling of what direction they can help take the franchise. Trading Granger or even Dunleavy wasn't an idea to do right now, only after getting a strong does of Hibbert and Rush throughout this year.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim R View Post
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    No, none of this is based on the preseason games. What it's based on is giving these two rookies plenty of time this year, throwing them into the fire in what will be an otherwise mediocre year, and see where it leads them. I'm saying after a full season you can get an inkling of what direction they can help take the franchise. Trading Granger or even Dunleavy wasn't an idea to do right now, only after getting a strong does of Hibbert and Rush throughout this year.
    Regardless of how they do.....I would think that it would make more sense to build around the likes of Granger, Rush and Hibbert. Also, given the way that JO'Bs offense works.....IMHO one that is better suited with our primary scoring coming from the PG/SG/SF positions.....I don't think that there is a requirement to have a Low-Post threat at the PF/C positions.

    Although it's nice to have a very solid Low Post scoring threat at the PF spot....I would think this is more of a "want" as opposed to a "need". On top of that....hopefully Hibbert's progression will eventually make him the Low Post threat that we need at the PF/C rotation.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    like most have already said, i disagree with starting hibbert. he has shown some promising stuff but, bringing him along at about 15-20 min would be much better for him (imo). hitting the wall by mid season isn't what we need. rasho is a quality big with more experience and stamina at this point. we got him for this year, it would be silly to waste it. let him get the bulk of the minutes and have roy take up the slack. throwing a guy into the fire can have negative ramifications like hitting the wall, losing confidence etc. i think roy will be a fine player but i still think he needs more time to develop (especially in conditioning) before he is truly ready for the responsibility to be the main guy down low at this point.
    let him earn his time as he should. i never believe guys should ever be given a job until they have earned it.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by clownskull View Post
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    like most have already said, i disagree with starting hibbert. he has shown some promising stuff but, bringing him along at about 15-20 min would be much better for him (imo). hitting the wall by mid season isn't what we need. rasho is a quality big with more experience and stamina at this point. we got him for this year, it would be silly to waste it. let him get the bulk of the minutes and have roy take up the slack. throwing a guy into the fire can have negative ramifications like hitting the wall, losing confidence etc. i think roy will be a fine player but i still think he needs more time to develop (especially in conditioning) before he is truly ready for the responsibility to be the main guy down low at this point.
    let him earn his time as he should. i never believe guys should ever be given a job until they have earned it.

    Who says because Hibbert starts it means he has to play 30-35 minutes a game?

    Who says him hitting the rookie wall wastes him? To me this year is already a wash, as a mediocre year means a first round exit or a bad lottery pick.

    Hibbert played a Georgetown. He knows what big time basketball competition is like. If he loses confidence in the heat of the fire, he won't be good enough for the Pacers to get over the hump.

    Rookies which lose confidence are the ones who rarely play. You know, the ones in Larry Brown's systems. Rookies which confidence are the ones without a veteran presence. He can start, play 20-25 minutes per game, and be groomed all at once. I want him up against a team's starters every game he plays in. That's the best way to develop him. It's not to say he spends every minute doing it or plays as long as normal starters do.




    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Regardless of how they do.....I would think that it would make more sense to build around the likes of Granger, Rush and Hibbert. Also, given the way that JO'Bs offense works.....IMHO one that is better suited with our primary scoring coming from the PG/SG/SF positions.....I don't think that there is a requirement to have a Low-Post threat at the PF/C positions.

    Although it's nice to have a very solid Low Post scoring threat at the PF spot....I would think this is more of a "want" as opposed to a "need". On top of that....hopefully Hibbert's progression will eventually make him the Low Post threat that we need at the PF/C rotation.

    Show me a team which won a championship without a true low post presence in the last 50 years, and I'll show you a team which played great defense. Not to say those teams with a low post presence didn't also play great defense, but Pistons teams and Bulls teams were great defensive teams. In the case of the Bulls, they had Jordan.

    I'm not sure the Pacers have any of those ingredients right now. I would mold this team after the Pacers' teams which made the finals or even the conference finals. A low post threat is pretty appealing, and as exciting as JOB's offense is, the last I checked the Phoenix just scrapped the entire system with much talent than the Pacers have had in the last four years.

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    The preseason isn't the regular season. It happens every year - severla players look really good in October and then struggle during the regular season when teams prepare for players, when veterans play harder.

    I hope Hibbert is great - but it is way to early to know what he will become

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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim R View Post
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    I want him up against a team's starters every game he plays in. That's the best way to develop him. It's not to say he spends every minute doing it or plays as long as normal starters do.
    I agree with this. The quickest way for him to develop would be for him to face the best talent out there. Considering that a lot of teams don't even have a decent C themselves, I think he'll do fine - especially against most teams in the east.

    I also think that he should start but only play about 16-20 minutes a game. Start with Roy and if the game is close and you need that experience in the fourth quarter go with Rasho or Foster. Basically, play Roy at the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters of each game and depending on how he plays during those quarters, adjust his minutes accordingly.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Hibbert needs to start, and Rush needs lots of PT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The preseason isn't the regular season. It happens every year - severla players look really good in October and then struggle during the regular season when teams prepare for players, when veterans play harder.

    I hope Hibbert is great - but it is way to early to know what he will become
    That's true, but I have some hope for Roy because the reason he's doing well is because he's smart and skilled. When you're 7'2" 275lbs+ with a brain and skills, I'm not sure how much you can shut that down when one of those skills is passing the ball well and part of his intelligence is knowing what is happening on the floor (in terms of what the other players are doing).

    Sure, there will be plenty of rough games along the way, but to watch him, you sense Roy is not just a pre-season wonder who will disappear.

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