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Thread: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    I've been reading the Dallas Morning news everyday during training camp and it has been interesting to read the way Rick Carlisle is installing the offense. Sounds vastly different from what he did here or in Detroit. I think Rick tried to move more towards this style but he had JO and JT to contend with. JO needed the ball in the low post and Rick didn't trust Jamaal to be able to run a free wheeling style

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...e.2c7ebe1.html



    Dallas Mavericks' offense shares few similarities

    I could pretend to be a basketball savant and detail the elements of the Princeton offense that will be unveiled tonight when these new-look Mavericks open the preseason against Washington.

    I could fake my understanding of the triangle offense and its place in this scheme before cleverly directing you to one of the books written by Tex Winters.

    Or I could put this in more practical terms.

    Rick Carlisle concluded his first training camp as the Mavericks coach Monday. The players ran and ran some more. He stressed defense. He experimented with different combinations.

    And how many new half-court sets did he install?

    None.

    This won't be the paint-by-the-numbers offense you have grown accustomed to watching over the last few seasons. It is more Monet than methodical. It relies on creativity over calculation.

    Carlisle concedes even he is intrigued to see what form the offense takes beginning tonight.

    "Well, we're not running the triangle," Carlisle said. "Maybe I'd call it a rectangle. I don't know what I'd call it.

    "But we don't have many sets in. We're going to be playing mostly out of movement."

    The offense under Avery Johnson was more structured. He would call the play, put his team in position to exploit a mismatch then attack. It was about discipline and imposing the Mavericks' will on the defense.

    The idea under Carlisle will be for players to read the defense and react. There will be more motion in the form of backdoor cuts and pick-and-rolls. Fewer plays will be called.

    "We have no half-court sets," guard Jason Terry said. "There is a base and a method to our madness, but it's all creative madness.

    "It's a little bit of the Princeton offense. A little bit of run and gun. Can you call it the West Coast offense of basketball? I don't know."

    Those who expect the Mavericks to adopt the breakneck pace of Phoenix, Denver or Golden State will be disappointed. You can't do that and adhere to the defensive principles Carlisle espouses.

    The Mavericks hope to pick up a few more fast-break points. The point guard will push the ball, the wing players will fly down the court and the power forward and center will sprint down the middle.

    But the true test of any motion offense is how efficient it is once the initial assault on the basket is stopped.

    In this secondary break, the Mavericks won't pull the ball out and set up. They will probe the defense with players cutting to the basket. The defensive response dictates how they proceed.

    Don't look for center Erick Dampier or DeSagana Diop on the low block at this stage of the offense. The Mavericks need the strong side open to create more room to drive to the basket. Dirk Nowitzki will be in motion on the theory that he is harder to cover on the move than he is standing still.

    "The key is to be able to explore off the fast break and not have to waste time getting guys in spots," point guard Jason Kidd said. "You have spots on the floor, and anyone can fill them.

    "You don't eat up the shot clock in that sense. You don't criss-cross. You don't have to wait to get one guy to run to the other side of the court for the play. You play once you get over half court."

    Carlisle said the offense is a combination of what various teams have done through the years. Assistant coach Terry Stotts said some of the cuts Utah runs have found their way into this scheme.

    "It's a fun way to play, a fun style to watch," Stotts said.

    And it starts tonight.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-07-2008 at 09:54 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Good luck to Carlisle.

    But let no one say we should have kept him. It was a dysfunctional team, a dysfunctional organization, and it had to be purged. Carlisle might be a great NBA coach, but he wasn't a great NBA coach here.

    But the true test of any motion offense is how efficient it is once the initial assault on the basket is stopped. In this secondary break, the Mavericks won't pull the ball out and set up. They will probe the defense with players cutting to the basket. The defensive response dictates how they proceed.
    Makes you eager to watch, doesn't it?





    It is more Monet than methodical.

    This is a dumb statement. Monet was very methodical.


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    Last edited by Putnam; 10-07-2008 at 10:10 AM.
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  3. #3
    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    It did always bug me when people said that Rick can only coach one way.

    And it bugs me when people say the same thing about JOB.

    IMO, coaches rarely try to fit round pegs into square holes. They tend not to be successful doing that.
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Carlisle might be a great NBA coach, but he wasn't a great NBA coach here.
    He had two great coaching seasons here, his first two. The 61 win team, and then his spectacular job after the brawl.

    RC made many different coaching changes during his tenure here as an assitant and as a head coach. It just happened when he was the HC he always went back to JO ball when he would come back from injury. He's hardly a system coach.

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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    I thought Rick was a great coach here. The brawl was the reason why things fell apart.

  6. #6
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Ok...I could find it (talking to myself).

    When I saw this broadly, I thought of this ESPN Daily dime from early Rick's last year:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...dime-061209-10

    One man's take on the Indiana Pacers, from Dimedom's web of front-office executives, coaches and scouts:

    "[Rick] Carlisle is doing a really good job, as usual. A lot of people said he wouldn't be able to open up the game, or that he wouldn't want to, but the Pacers' offense is a lot more random than it used to be. I don't mean like Philadelphia, where it looks totally disorganized. I mean random in a good way. It's a systematic randomness.

    "When you used to scout the Pacers, if they ran 90 plays, at least 80 of them would play all the way out. There's not a play call every single time down [the floor] now. I'd say about 60 of the 90 plays are [strictly] executed based on the play call. On the rest, Carlisle is having [Indiana players] make reads, looking for early offense, letting them probe. He looks more content with them playing in the open court than he's ever been.

    "And he's so good at teaching spacing -- he and Pop [San Antonio's Gregg Popovich] are the best -- that his players are always in the right place. Organization is sometimes perceived as just running the play that's called. But they can look organized even when they're not running a play, because they're so well-coached on how to space themselves in relation to the basketball.

    "I know they're having some turnover problems, but I think this style is better for them. They're taking about five more shots a game than they did last year and being more random means they don't have to go through Jermaine O'Neal every single time down. Their whole game is no longer dependent on O'Neal's effectiveness."
    I have absolutely no doubt that Carlisle can successfully teach and install, really, virtually any type of offense you want to put in front of him. It is fair, however, to question how successfully he will be in the "soft" side of coaching, player relations, etc.

    I think he is a very good coach, and I think he was a very good coach here. I'll stop short of great, because he does have some obvious flaws. While I do think there was a time the he and the Pacers could've been very successful together, I do believe that that opportunity had passed by the time we fired him.

    OT, a little, but I'm happy with Obie, as well. I do not think he's the long term solution, as I'm not fond of his offensive philosophy, but I think he was/is a very sound choice for where we are at in our evolution as a franchise. I expect to see improvement this year (though, as discussed in other posts, that may not show up in the record), particularly on the defensive end. I think he'll be a good coach for the next two to three years for this franchise.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He had two great coaching seasons here, his first two. The 61 win team, and then his spectacular job after the brawl.

    RC made many different coaching changes during his tenure here as an assitant and as a head coach. It just happened when he was the HC he always went back to JO ball when he would come back from injury. He's hardly a system coach.
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  8. #8
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    I know most of us think that Rick isn't very good at "getting along with his players" However you want to define that. Sure there is some truth to that - no doubt, but every coach in the NBA has that problem to varying degrees.

    I think players truly respect Rick as a coach - and that is the most important thing - beyond that there are a lot of players who often after a year or two of being away from Rick seem to learn to appreciate him a lot better (also very common around the NBA) (Artest is one)

    Stackhouse for one has always loved Rick. (I read something today that Reggie has been at camp and spoke with the Mavs yesterday, so he still has a good relationship.

    I guess my overall point is this - as far as player -coach relationships - Rick IMO is about average.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I know most of us think that Rick isn't very good at "getting along with his players" However you want to define that. Sure there is some truth to that - no doubt, but every coach in the NBA has that problem to varying degrees.

    I think players truly respect Rick as a coach - and that is the most important thing - beyond that there are a lot of players who often after a year or two of being away from Rick seem to learn to appreciate him a lot better (also very common around the NBA) (Artest is one)

    Stackhouse for one has always loved Rick. (I read something today that Reggie has been at camp and spoke with the Mavs yesterday, so he still has a good relationship.

    I guess my overall point is this - as far as player -coach relationships - Rick IMO is about average.
    I think this is a relatively fair assessment...which is why I keep Rick at "very good", but short of "great". ("Great" gets thrown around too much.)

  10. #10
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    I always said that Rick was not the problem for our offense being so boring, predictable and defendable. The reason for that is now in Toronto. Rick never ran an offense like that when he was here with Bird, he never ran an offense like that when he was in Detroit and he never ran an offense like that whenever O'Neal was sidelined for any extended time.

    Rick is a fine coach and his time here was very turbulent, however most of it was not his fault. He certainly deserves a fair share of the blame, as everyone does, but he wasn't the number one problem.

    However having said all of that, it was time for him to move on.

  11. #11

    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He had two great coaching seasons here, his first two. The 61 win team, and then his spectacular job after the brawl.

    RC made many different coaching changes during his tenure here as an assitant and as a head coach. It just happened when he was the HC he always went back to JO ball when he would come back from injury. He's hardly a system coach.
    RC coached to the talents and attitudes we had here. That's not unlike what most coaches do. RC had JO, Reggie and Tinsley. Those were the teams' strengths initially. I'm sure he would have changed his coaching style to suit this current group of players. He's never struck me as the type of coach who would force players to perform outside of their comfort zones. He might encourage players to try different things or even insist on them doing certain things if he saw something in the player that convinced him that the player could perform to that skill set. But if it's just not there, I seriously doubt he'd force the issue.

    Example: Suppose you have a player who can shoot the 3, but doesn't have very good handles. He'd certainly play to that player's strength - perimeter shooting - but wouldn't ask him to drive the lanes too much if at all. Let's say that a player was a decent mid-range jump shooter and could handle the ball fairly well. RC would probably work with this player to increase his shooting range, as well as work w/him to build up his confidence to penetrate the lanes more, or maybe work on his passing ability. But I don't think he's force the guy to became neither a 3-pt shooter nor a passer off the dribble unless he knew it was in him.

    RC was a very good coach. I just think he wound up being the wrong coach for the players who were here. The last group lacked maturity. It's the one time I'd agree w/Phil Jackson: sometimes having too many vets on your team isn't a good thing. I think that group of guys just no longer wanted to be coached, but they certainly didn't want to take full responsibility and work as a team either. Too much selfishness, not enough trust.

    I don't blame RC - not fully; I mostly blamed the players for how things went so terribly wrong.

  12. #12
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    When Larry Bird was hired as the head coach here he said a coach is only good with a team for three years. He is right. The exception of Sloan and Pop how many times have we seen a coach with a team for over three years in the NBA?
    I feel RC has been our best coach since Larry Brown hands down. JOB's tenure is not up, but if he coaches this team above .500 this year we can discuss him vs RC.
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Having a True PG ( that maybe older and a little bit slower ) like Kidd would make a world of difference for Carlisle. He now has a PG that he can trust to run the offense the way he wants it to be run.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    I agree that Carlisle had to go, but it still sucks. I man-loved him as a coach. He was awesome.

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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Good luck to Carlisle.

    But let no one say we should have kept him.
    I'll say it.

    I wish we would have built around him as a coach. I think the front office made mistakes by backing players over the coach, making trades that weren't his choice, and eventually making him a fall guy. He worked with what he had here, and I think it'll be a long time before the Pacers have a coach that's better than Carlisle.

  16. #16

    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Quote Originally Posted by maragin
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    I think it'll be a long time before the Pacers have a coach that's better than Carlisle.
    We're just ready to begin our second post-Carlisle season. We think we're on the path to recovering some competitiveness and fan support, but we're still just at the foot of the hill we have to climb.

    Where would we be if we'd centered it all around Carlisle?

    Would he have guided a better series of player moves than we've made? (Not just different, but better?)

    Would the 3-year coach rule, which clearly bit him in the butt during his 4th year, have miraculously ceased to operate in his 5th year?

    Would he have been the right coach to develop what has become a young team? Or would Carlisle have traded away picks for veterans?

    These questions might make for some interesting discussion. But the first pre-season game under O'Brien is tomorrow night!
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Would the 3-year coach rule, which clearly bit him in the butt during his 4th year, have miraculously ceased to operate in his 5th year?
    What was the 3yr rule?

    Bird said he thinks the players start tuning out the coach after 3 years. Have turnover in your player personel, and you reset the 3yr time clock.

    Again, the players who were tuning him out/gave up on the Pacers needed to be shipped out a long time ago. I don't think Granger tuned him out, or Foster, or.....well that's just about the only players left from the group of misfits.


    You had a coach that was continually in the top in COY voting, then got around a bunch of knuckleheads. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, which is exactly what the TPTB did.

    They thought bringing in a new coach would shore up the problems. Well JO continued to be JO, and Tinsley continued to be Tinsley. So now we're left with a completely different team, one that didn't tune RC out, and a inferior coach.

    I'm excited about this team, and the progress their going to make, but JOB won't be sitting on the sidelines if/when they make the jump to the top of the rankings.

  18. #18
    Edge of Reason GO!!!!!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: I guess Carlisle can change afterall

    Winning makes a Coach Last longer then 3 years and to be honest if I was Coach C, I properly would have left the pacers too after his term.

    He doesn’t owe us anything nor admire the team as much as we fans do, he's got a job to do and with the players he had, he tried his best.

    I have a lot of respect for him and wish him well and Hope he takes the Mavs to the finals because as a Coach he's a good coach.

    What the Franchise has had was to many issues and needed a change of staff/players and mentality to restore some pride n confidence for the fans.

    JOB is slowly working on it and this shall be a key year for him and the team


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