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Thread: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    The deal seems to be dead, due to Tinsley large contract

    Price isn't right: One NBA general manager said the Nuggets were very interested in trading for Pacers guard Jamaal Tinsley but his hefty contract ultimately kept the deal from happening. Tinsley, who has been barred from Pacers training camp because of off-the-court issues, is making $6.75 million this season and has three years and $21.45 million left on his contract.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCPacerIN View Post
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    Denver has been aware of Jamaal's contract situation long before trade talks heated up. It isn't like this is a new revelation.
    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    good point. Maybe one side is trying to sweeten the deal for the other
    This is what I've been thinking........IMHO, charecter doesn't appear to be an issue for the Nuggets since they have no problem inviting Ruben Patterson to camp while trying to trade for Artest.....so it had to be concerns over $$$ and contract.

    As many have mentioned....Tinsley having a huge contract isn't something that is unknown. IMHO......the news that the Nuggets having concerns about Tinsley's contract is code for "Bird, we want you to sweeten the deal".
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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    This is what I've been thinking........IMHO, charecter doesn't appear to be an issue for the Nuggets since they have no problem inviting Ruben Patterson to camp while trying to trade for Artest.....so it had to be concerns over $$$ and contract.

    As many have mentioned....Tinsley having a huge contract isn't something that is unknown. IMHO......the news that the Nuggets having concerns about Tinsley's contract is code for "Bird, we want you to sweeten the deal".
    Makes sense. For sure Denver's head office knew about Tinsley's contract. They probably just want Indiana to sweeten the deal. Right now, its kind of for the benefit of us. We basically save a year for cap releif
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    My guess is that they are holding out for a future 1st. If it were anything else that we could reasonably part with....then it would have happened already.

    I know the easy thing to suggest is to include either Rush or Hibbert as sweetner.....but given what the Pacers gave up to acquire them......they are not going to include either of them even if it meant moving Tinsley.

    The most that I would add as sweetner would be a future 2nd rounder, Shawne Williams, $3 mil in Cash considerations ( I know, it's not my $$$ but I don't really care ) OR the right to swap Draft picks.

    Things to consider:

    - Given the liklihood that the Pacers could be stuck in Lotteryland for the next couple of seasons....trading a future 1st round pick is not an option ( as Bird has stated he will not do after that Harrington trade ).

    - Swapping picks may not be preferable...but as long as the Pacers have a 1st round pick...even if it's later...I'm okay with it.

    - As for the Cash Considerations....it's mainly to make up ( as much is allowed by the CBA ) for the additional $$$ that is owed to Tinsley.

    - Shawne Williams ( despite the known PR issues ) is the closest thing that we have to a prospect that we could part with. On top of that, it's unknown how much the Nuggets would take to take on in additional Contracts.

    I know that it isn't much for the Nuggets, but that's the best that I think the Pacers could add as sweetner. I would have no problem taking on additional contracts to make the $$$ coming in / going out more balenced.....but outside of Atkins, Hunter and filler.....the Nuggets does not have any Players that they would be willing to part with that they can send out that would make any difference.

    Since none of these would likely satisfy the Nuggets......I'm thinking that Bird is trying to find a 3rd team to get something of value from them in exchange for the Pacers taking on some Bad contracts.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Theres no way we add a 1st rounder. I'd give up 2 2nd rounders, but never a 1st rounder for the type of players were getting back. I'd rather give up a few 2nd rounder than Shawne Williams, once (or if) he can get his head in the game and mind off the streets, hes going to be a valuable player for the Pacers.
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    I would definitely throw in Williams, but who do we take back in that scenario?
    "Can you take away every single day that we have given to another false prophet" -- Corey Taylor

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Nah...
    I don't like any of the "sweetner" situations. JT can just sit and wait.

    Move on to the next possibility.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Nah...
    I don't like any of the "sweetner" situations. JT can just sit and wait.

    Move on to the next possibility.
    Nah... this is a "cash considerations" issue. I betcha that they're just trying to offset his contract with some $ from the Simons. In that way, it'll be a "junior" buyout. I bet this gets done. There's no way that picks will be involved.

    I will do a little dance when we hear the news.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Short of getting fleeced, the Pacers are going to have to take what they can get. No team is going to call up and offer Bird some extraordinary deal. The Pacers have absolutely no leverage in the matter.
    "Can you take away every single day that we have given to another false prophet" -- Corey Taylor

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Nah... this is a "cash considerations" issue. I betcha that they're just trying to offset his contract with some $ from the Simons. In that way, it'll be a "junior" buyout. I bet this gets done. There's no way that picks will be involved.

    I will do a little dance when we hear the news.
    IIRC, one of the reasons the Harrington trade took so long to get done was Atlanta wanted some cash and the Simons' said no. It might be the Simons just aren't willing to give any cash to complete this deal either.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Do we still have a Trade Exemption? Could we take a mil or two player off their books and give them an exemption back?
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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Do we still have a Trade Exemption? Could we take a mil or two player off their books and give them an exemption back?
    You could theoretically do that, but IIRC the Pacers are sort of close to luxury tax territory and depending on how the numbers add up (too lazy to check) the Simons probably wouldn't sign off on using the TPE.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    IIRC, one of the reasons the Harrington trade took so long to get done was Atlanta wanted some cash and the Simons' said no. It might be the Simons just aren't willing to give any cash to complete this deal either.
    This is accurate, and may be true in this case, but it strikes me as foolish for the Simons not to part with $3mm in a deal that would still, in the long run, save them about $7mm (assuming they only pay the $760 guaranteed to Atkins next year...it'd be about $5mm if they kept Atkins.)

    I think, if the deal dies or is dead, it will be because Denver doesn't want to take on the longer contract for Tinsley rather than the Simons picking at a $3mm holdup.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by HCPacerIN View Post
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    I would definitely throw in Williams, but who do we take back in that scenario?
    Shawne is going to be our best scorer off the bench this season why trade him for two players who have zero potential? Shawne is a better player than both of these so isTinsley. Denver should be very happy getting Tinsley in a 2-1.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    You could theoretically do that, but IIRC the Pacers are sort of close to luxury tax territory and depending on how the numbers add up (too lazy to check) the Simons probably wouldn't sign off on using the TPE.
    Pacers have around $2mm left under the tax, but Cro, if signed, would take up part of it.

    We have a $2.7mm exception, but the only players under that amount that they have are Kleiza (unavailable), Carter, Andersen, & Dahntay Jones.

    There's no way we'll go over the tax threshold, and I can't see us turning it into a 3- or 4-for-1 deal, resulting in us having to cut even more guaranteed contracts.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Shawne is going to be our best scorer off the bench this season why trade him for two players who have zero potential? Shawne is a better player than both of these so isTinsley. Denver should be very happy getting Tinsley in a 2-1.
    In make-believe world...this is true.....but in the world we live in.....Tinsley has ZERO value and a negative value Contract that no one wants to take on.

    I even admit that IF this trade were to ever happen the way it was reported......it would be widely viewed that we came out ahead. For us...it's a low-cost/low-risk/low reward trade and for the Nuggets it's a high-cost/high-risk/medium reward trade. Adding in Shawne IMHO isn't a deal breaker cuz of his potential....this is Bird that we are talking about...not Walsh who IMHO has overvalued his players with potential.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    In make-believe world...this is true.....but in the world we live in.....Tinsley has ZERO value and a negative value Contract that no one wants to take on.

    I even admit that IF this trade were to ever happen the way it was reported......it would be widely viewed that we came out ahead. For us...it's a low-cost/low-risk/low reward trade and for the Nuggets it's a high-cost/high-risk/medium reward trade. Adding in Shawne IMHO isn't a deal breaker cuz of his potential....this is Bird that we are talking about...not Walsh who IMHO has overvalued his players with potential.
    You know, I personally feel this way about Tinsley, but frankly, I'm not seeing this language in the press and in public. They're also seeing his strong numbers prior to his fallout with JOB.

    Additionally, the folks we're getting in return are not good players. Think about it... they have a huge void @ the 5 now that Camby is gone, and they're still want to trade Hunter?

    I think the trade will be seen as a win-win for both teams, as it's clear that Denver needs a starting-level PG. Tinsley, in the right structured environment that he subscribes to, will play like a starting level PG.

    He just simply doesn't want to be here. That's the only explanation for what happened in Phoenix last December. The illness and missed games in the past, IMO, were largely a manifestation of his unhappiness.

    Once again, JMHO.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Denver if they want to go anywhere this year "needs" a quality PG. The Pacers have the best PG on the market. In reality, Denver isn't giving up much to get a quality PG in Tinsley.

    I'm not over valuing the Tinman, b/c he has faults. The answer really lies in the question of how far do the Nuggets think they can go with the PG's they have now. How badly do they want to keep Melo happy?

    I never understood why they ever let Steve Blake leave. It was a large mistake, and one I'm guessing they wish they hadn't done. Oh well, there is always Smush Parker coming to the rescue if they choose not to take Tinsley.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Well if this deal doesn't go through, Peter Vecsey needs to be loaded onto
    a ship (hopefully an old one with lots of barnacles attached to its underside),
    taken out to sea, and keelhauled.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by RamBo_Lamar View Post
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    Well if this deal doesn't go through, Peter Vecsey needs to be loaded onto
    a ship (hopefully an old one with lots of barnacles attached to its underside),
    taken out to sea, and keelhauled.
    To Davy Jones' locker.


    Or


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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    You know, I personally feel this way about Tinsley, but frankly, I'm not seeing this language in the press and in public. They're also seeing his strong numbers prior to his fallout with JOB.

    Additionally, the folks we're getting in return are not good players. Think about it... they have a huge void @ the 5 now that Camby is gone, and they're still want to trade Hunter?

    I think the trade will be seen as a win-win for both teams, as it's clear that Denver needs a starting-level PG. Tinsley, in the right structured environment that he subscribes to, will play like a starting level PG.

    He just simply doesn't want to be here. That's the only explanation for what happened in Phoenix last December. The illness and missed games in the past, IMO, were largely a manifestation of his unhappiness.

    Once again, JMHO.
    Is getting back quality Players a requirement for you if we trade Tinsley?

    IMHO......breaking "even" is a requirement for me....which means getting players in a trade where we come out even from a Financial/Salary POV.

    If Tinsley did not have guaranteed 3 year / 21 mil contract....if Tinsley did not have an injury past.....if Tinsley did not have a history of on-off court issues that has led to bad PR.....then I can see a need to get back some quality players.

    The problem is that there are too many "If Tinsley did not" concerns for us to expect anything of quality back much less a trade where we can come out ahead.

    Honestly, the way that the trade rumor looks.....I myself can see the need for giving up additional sweetner to make this deal more palateable....simply for the reasons I mentoined about. Remember.....financial and Salary Cap concerns is a huge deal for teams nowadays....including one that just traded one of their better Defensive ( but aging ) Centers for a 2nd round pick.

    In a vacuum.....if I were to look at the quality of the players involved....I totally agree.....Tinsley is the best player being moved.....but just like the rumored ZBo to Grizzlies trade that fell through....I think that the Nuggets realize that they can and should get back more.

    Again....I don't mind including sweetner ( as I mentioned earlier in this thread ) as long as the price does not exceed what I am comfortable of giving up ( such as 1st round pick, giving up Rush/Hibbert or taking on significantly more Salary then we need ).
    Last edited by CableKC; 10-06-2008 at 03:21 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Is three years at 21 million that much money for a teams starting PG in the NBA? Where does Tinsley rank in pay as starting PG out of the thirty teams in the NBA?

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Is three years at 21 million that much money for a teams starting PG in the NBA? Where does Tinsley rank in pay as starting PG out of the thirty teams in the NBA?
    Yes, IMHO....$21 mil for a 3 years for a team that just traded one of their best Trading assets for a 2nd round pick due to financial concerns is alot......it's alot to ask for a PG that is injury prone.......has a history of on/off court issues...and is coming from a team that won't buy him out nor play him.

    He probably is a top 15-25 PG in the league.....but does that matter when the PG ( despite what many of us think ) has a history of missing at least 1/3 of the season? It sure does.

    Again....don't look at Tinsley in a vacuum.....in Yahoo NBA Fantasy BBall....you're right.....people could care less about on/off court issues....they just look at production. But when you factor in all the "negatives" that accompany Tinsley.....the answer to whether he is worth $21 mil at 3 years is sobering.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Shawne is going to be our best scorer off the bench this season why trade him for two players who have zero potential? Shawne is a better player than both of these so isTinsley. Denver should be very happy getting Tinsley in a 2-1.
    I would give Shawne away for free, so I have no problem throwing him in this deal.
    "Can you take away every single day that we have given to another false prophet" -- Corey Taylor

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Is three years at 21 million that much money for a teams starting PG in the NBA? Where does Tinsley rank in pay as starting PG out of the thirty teams in the NBA?
    Are we ranking him based only on the games he plays, or are we considering the fact that he's missed 40% of his team's games over the past five seasons.

    Forget all of the off-court stuff. If this guy could be counted on to play 70+ games, then we probably wouldn't be looking to move him. Denver (and any other teams) are weighing the possibility that a new venue would get his 13 & 8 performance for 70+ games vs. the likelihood indicated by the last five years that he'd only be a part time player.

    I would bet that if you asked polled 30 GM's in the league as to whether they thought they would feel comfortable banking on JT as their starting PG for 70+ games, you'd recieve very close to 30 "No's". It's not just ability, but reliability as well. Tinsley's contract is fair-to-cheap for a starting NBA point guard. However, until Jamaal can prove that he can be counted on to make it through a full season and the playoffs, he simply will not and should not be considered worth that contract.

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    Default Re: Star: Tinsley to Nuggets? Possibly Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    Is three years at 21 million that much money for a teams starting PG in the NBA?
    For a team who's owner is looking to cut costs, it might be.

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