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Thread: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

  1. #1
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    In another thread, I provided a link to a thread I started three years ago to trade Tinsley. Here's another one a couple months later:

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=11902

    I think I got a lot of other stuff wrong, but nice to have one feather in my cap.

    Here's my question for this thread in an offseason needing some activity:

    Who on Pacers Digest outsmarted TPTB?

    I'd like to see links to some threads and posts that include the following from posters:

    - Warnings and fears when JO was signed to his max contract.
    - Those warning about character when Jax was signed.
    - " " " " " " " when Shawne Williams was signed.
    - " " " " " " " when Quis was signed.
    - " " " " " " " and specifically telling us he is crazy when Artest was signed.
    - Those who protested against Bender's extension.
    - Those who protested against Tinsley's extension.

    There may be a few others. I just think it would be interesting to see which members here have been most prescient (able to say "I told you so.")
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    4 of those happened before PD started, so there won't be a thread from the time those happened. You might find some fairly concurrent reaction threads, though.

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    One man show ajbry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=29424

    This is a good one.

    Although to be honest, the tone of this thread is inherently negative... We're all going to try to discredit others. I don't think this will end well.

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    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Jay was spot on from Artest from the get go, that's an easy one.

    I don't know about 'outsmarted,' but UB was definately ahead of his time when he asked TPTB to go out and get Quis, which they did. That's when I started suspecting that UB really is ol bug eyes, Donnie Walsh, in disguise.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    get Quis, which they did.
    Which in retrospect was pretty stupid. He never lived up to any of the hype on the court and has been a bad egg off the court.

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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Which is why I said I dunno if he 'outsmarted' them.

    I've come to find out, you can blame UB for just about everything. Quis, his love affair with Ron (forget the fact I was with him til the very end mind you), global warming (have you seen his carbon footprint? It makes Al Gore and his private jets seem like a solarpower panel), and even the demise of FreddieMac. I'm sure there are connections with him in every instance.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    hmm... I'd be interested if there was anyone that griped in a thread about us signing J.O. to a max deal when it happened. I use to always listen to the local sports talk and all I recall most was a sigh of relief when the Pacers gave J.O. the max instead of letting him go to San Antonio to be wined and dined.

    Of course revisionist history says TPTB acted in rogue to the fan base in signing J.O. to the max.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  8. #8

    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Here's one:

    Who was against bringing back Al Harrington for the second time, even giving up a first.

    Edit: Even more laughable, playing him at center (or was that just on paper).
    Last edited by dlewyus; 09-24-2008 at 04:49 PM. Reason: Add another thought

  9. #9
    streets ahead
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    LG33 was ahead of everyone with Kareem and Diener (though once again, outsmarted probably isn't the precise word.)
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    The Dude Abides MrSparko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    An alright back-up shooting guard and an excellent third-stringer point guard that was forced to start. Does anyone really "regret" those decisions?
    Report: 82% Of Wiseguys Think They're Real Funny

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    You left off ... protesting Carlisle's fourth year:

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=20221

    I still think I'm right about that one.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    No way.

    Bringing in JOB and having the same issues with the same players shows that those players should have been shown the door before a coach of Rick's caliber.

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    hmm... I'd be interested if there was anyone that griped in a thread about us signing J.O. to a max deal when it happened. I use to always listen to the local sports talk and all I recall most was a sigh of relief when the Pacers gave J.O. the max instead of letting him go to San Antonio to be wined and dined.

    Of course revisionist history says TPTB acted in rogue to the fan base in signing J.O. to the max.
    JO had multiple suitors
    Jalen had multiple suitors
    Houston and Chicago offered Croshere as much money

    Its been popular to b!tch about those contracts, but they got market value.

    Its the "early extensions" that we need to learn from: there was no reason to extend Bender and Artest, and later Tinsley when those were made. First of all, the team ran out of money, secondly, all of those players proved unworthy.

    This is why I'm not overly concerned about the Granger situation. We've been smart enough to let Fred Jones and Harrison walk away instead of automatically extend them. We'll get something done with Granger, but we might as well do it for the right price, for a change. Maybe they ARE learning.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #14
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No way.

    Bringing in JOB and having the same issues with the same players shows that those players should have been shown the door before a coach of Rick's caliber.
    Its been a revolving door for players ever since the Artest trade. Granted, they held onto the problems for too long and tried to market "a new roster" (2006-07) when the only thing that changed was the scrubs. Josh Powell and Rawle Marshall.

    We could compromise that the needed to replace all the players AND all the coaches.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  15. #15
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    JO had multiple suitors
    Jalen had multiple suitors
    Houston and Chicago offered Croshere as much money
    Toronto did, too, as I recall.

    Its been popular to b!tch about those contracts, but they got market value.
    This is probably going to be closer to the situation with Danny. He will get market value, but people may still *****. However, I am still of the opinion that we will get him for a lower price this summer than next.

  16. #16
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Its been a revolving door for players ever since the Artest trade. Granted, they held onto the problems for too long and tried to market "a new roster" (2006-07) when the only thing that changed was the scrubs. Josh Powell and Rawle Marshall.

    We could compromise that the needed to replace all the players AND all the coaches.
    Rick had definitely become part of the problem in the fourth year. His third year, it's more difficult to tell, but I'd say it's reasonable to believe the damage had already been done, so firing him may have been the right thing to do (in conjunction with overhauling the roster).

    I had always thought that Bird would've fired Carlisle that summer if not for the two-headed monster.

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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Its been a revolving door for players ever since the Artest trade. Granted, they held onto the problems for too long and tried to market "a new roster" (2006-07) when the only thing that changed was the scrubs. Josh Powell and Rawle Marshall.

    We could compromise that the needed to replace all the players AND all the coaches.
    If you need to replace your players, why would you get rid of a top 5 coach? That's my point.

    Did Rick lose the team? Yes, but he lost players who were leaving or needed to leave.

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    That's the difference. I don't think Rick is a top-twenty coach.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Well I'm sure his COY award along with him placing top 3, what, 2 other years says something.

    He's miles better than JOB, regardless. Change just for the sake of change isn't always good. Especially when you downgrade.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    I'm just glad that Rick isn't here, along with the players in question.

    I thought Rick's weaknesses in dealing with his players to me was something I didn't want new guys having to deal with. Mind games and what not.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Rick's great but his system wears down a team, its players and its fans.

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    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Rick reminds me of not one but TWO of my friends. I already know what he's like both on and off the court.

    Nice, conservative, caring guy who's just not real personable. He comes off as a snob to many people. He just can't help it. He likes the finer things in life including classical music and the theatre...and may be into aerobic exercise and health food. Someone tell me if I have him pegged. I think Rick likes classical music...but don't know anything else...

    No offense to my buddies or Rick, but Rick would be a great coach if the players were robots.

  23. #23
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    JO had multiple suitors
    Jalen had multiple suitors
    Houston and Chicago offered Croshere as much money

    Its been popular to b!tch about those contracts, but they got market value.

    Its the "early extensions" that we need to learn from: there was no reason to extend Bender and Artest, and later Tinsley when those were made. First of all, the team ran out of money, secondly, all of those players proved unworthy.
    i would say that it's the fact that we got burned on the bidding wars for jalen and austin that led to donnie's eagerness to extend the young players.

    and in fact, the extensions were pretty sound at the time. artest, harrington, and tinsley had all been playing significant minutes when extended. only bender's extension was iffy. all were regarded as trade assets at the time, if the mcgrady rumors were to be believed. and recall that we were still available to trade artest, even after the palace meltdown, in part because his contract was relatively small.

    the early extensions weren't the problem. it's the fact that we held certain players for too long, long after they lost their lustre.

    i would prefer we extend granger early too, to head off a bidding war. but if granger's camp were asking for an above market contract, then i think management would just wait it out since they'll end up paying the same above market rate anyway.

  24. #24
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    You left off ... protesting Carlisle's fourth year:

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=20221

    I still think I'm right about that one.
    I don't...and neither does the W/L record or the Tinsley factor. Remember that one major aspect was that Rick was the reason Tinsley wasn't working out and once he got a coach that opened up the offense it would all be so much better.

    Rick was blamed for Saras - dude flopped in uptempo GS

    Rick was blamed for Al - Al never did better than he did as an Indy 6th man

    Rick couldn't control Ron - Ron only kept it together for one season, enough to win DPOY and make the AS team and that was for Rick

    Rick's slog ball to JO hurt the team - the team improved from 30th in Points per Possession (102.9) to 19th (106) but the defense dropped from 9th to 15th, and JO kept on being hurt/unhappy. When you consider the improvement in 3P% by Dun there isn't much else that drastically improved on the offensive end.

    Rick couldn't control Jackson - and then Jax got TWO different double tech ejections during the GS playoff run

    Dunleavy is the only player that jumps to mind as improving without Rick, and frankly he only improved in one statistical way - his 3pt%.

    Fans didn't want to come see Rick's type of team - attendence was worse last year than in any of Rick's seasons and remains on track to be that low this year.

    6 years - 5 playoffs, 4 times to the 2nd round, 2 times to the ECF...all with luck or some other crap skill.

    Remember when the call was to get Skiles in because he was so much better than Rick. Just one of many "grass is greener" stories.

    I think Rick likes classical music...but don't know anything else...
    Maybe he does I suppose but his claim to fame is hanging out with Bruce Hornsby which while not rap or crap pop or metal is still rock enough to be more than "snob". Did you not listen to the Rick show at any point? He cut up quite a bit and seemed moderately ecclectic in his taste.

    He's just conservative and toward the quiet end over all. Otherwise I never noticed a snob aspect to him, even accidental.


    Did Rick lose the team? Yes, but he lost players who were leaving or needed to leave.
    Players that Rick lost, that gave up on the team, that JOB won back? zilch...ask Foster about JO's interest in still being in Indy by the end of last season

    Improvement in discipline once Rick left - ask Shawne and Tinsley
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 09-25-2008 at 10:27 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Which PD members outsmarted the GM?

    hmm...fairly certain i've been correct on most things concerning the pacers over the past 15 or so years. my problem is i'm just 1 or 2 years ahead of the time where it becomes popular belief.

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