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    Default Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Based on talk out of Indiana and New York, the Heat soon could be facing two decisions in its convoluted situation at point guard.



    With Indiana's Jamaal Tinsley, the situation is pretty basic. If the Pacers are willing to take on Marcus Banks, a deal quickly could be consummated. If the Pacers remain focused on Udonis Haslem, the conversations will remain cursory.



    With New York's Stephon Marbury, the issue is a bit more clouded. Unlike Indiana, which insists it will not buy out Tinsley at anything short of pennies on the dollar, New York apparently is moving closer to an outright release of Marbury, at least that's the latest from The New York Times.



    If Marbury is waived, the Heat would be first in position to make a waiver claim, because of its league-worst 2007-08 record. Of course, lacking the cap space or financial interest in such a move, the Heat, like each of the other 28 remaining teams, would have to wait until Marbury clears waivers.



    Adding Marbury in free agency would mean also remaining on the hook for Banks' three remaining seasons, as well as having four point guards in camp, when counting Marbury, Banks, Mario Chalmers and Chris Quinn.



    Common sense would say that if Marbury truly wants to regain his stature, the Heat would be the most logical landing point. Where else, perhaps beyond Indiana, would he have as solid a chance to emerge as an opening-night starter?



    Yet is that where a team of the future should be headed? It's a tough call. At a point in the post-Shaq era when the Heat is trying to get everything to again be about team, is adding a veteran trying to resurrect his personal star the way to go?



    A tough call? Certainly. But one the Heat soon might have to make.

    http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_basketball_heat/

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Would anyone be willing to take Banks for Tinsley? There would have to be other players involved (for salary cap reasons) and Miami needs a big too. Any thoughts?

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    This article loses credibility when the author suggests that Marbury would have a shot at the starting PG job in Indiana. That's as much hogwash as I've ever read. I'm not even sure that Crean would take him at IU.
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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    This article loses credibility when the author suggests that Marbury would have a shot at the starting PG job in Indiana. That's as much hogwash as I've ever read. I'm not even sure that Crean would take him at IU.
    Yep that is stupid for him to say Marbury would start here.

    Otherwise, the Pacers would really have to think about a a Banks deal (I think he basically has 3 years 13.3 million left) and expiring contract(s).

    Then they'd have the option to waive Banks (maybe even wait until after this season) and then it's essentially like buying out Tinsley for

    -one year of Banks on the team
    -plus 9 million (what is left on the last two years of Banks contract.
    -plus the expiring one year deal of a expiring player for like 3 million (you could keep that player or not, really)

    So its like buying out Tinsley sort of, but you save some money and some future cap space and maybe Banks becomes a better asset than Tinsley after a year.

    Not the best thing in the world since Banks will still be on your books 3 years from now, but for only 4.7 million v. 7.5 for JT.

    Again, not the best thing in the world, but it gets Tinsley out of town and you save some money/capspace. Plus JT on Southbeach is worth it all by itself.

    edit, Smush Parker is a free agent now (not available to be expiring contract fodder), I guess, at least according to Wikipedia so it has to be true.
    Last edited by Speed; 09-19-2008 at 03:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    A Tinsley for Banks trade does not work salary wise. The likely he is referring to is Blount and Banks coming here since he said forget Haslem.

    Going to the Heat would be Tinsley and either Nesterovic or Foster. I want no part of Blount. Mark Blount is owed 16 mil over the next 2 seasons while Nesterovic and Foster are both expiring contracts.

    Any savings in the Tinsley / Banks part would be lost due to Blount's 8 mil , 2nd year of his deal.

    Smush Parker has signed to play overseas next season.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    A Tinsley for Banks trade does not work salary wise. The likely he is referring to is Blount and Banks coming here since he said forget Haslem.

    Going to the Heat would be Tinsley and either Nesterovic or Foster. I want no part of Blount. Mark Blount is owed 16 mil over the next 2 seasons while Nesterovic and Foster are both expiring contracts.

    Any savings in the Tinsley / Banks part would be lost due to Blount's 8 mil , 2nd year of his deal.

    Smush Parker has signed to play overseas next season.
    Wouldn't we be able to do the Tinsley for Banks deal utilizing the JO trade exception?

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    Wouldn't we be able to do the Tinsley for Banks deal utilizing the JO trade exception?
    You can't combine Trade Exceptions with Players.
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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Yep that is stupid for him to say Marbury would start here.

    Otherwise, the Pacers would really have to think about a a Banks deal (I think he basically has 3 years 13.3 million left) and expiring contract(s).

    Then they'd have the option to waive Banks (maybe even wait until after this season) and then it's essentially like buying out Tinsley for

    -one year of Banks on the team
    -plus 9 million (what is left on the last two years of Banks contract.
    -plus the expiring one year deal of a expiring player for like 3 million (you could keep that player or not, really)

    So its like buying out Tinsley sort of, but you save some money and some future cap space and maybe Banks becomes a better asset than Tinsley after a year.

    Not the best thing in the world since Banks will still be on your books 3 years from now, but for only 4.7 million v. 7.5 for JT.

    Again, not the best thing in the world, but it gets Tinsley out of town and you save some money/capspace. Plus JT on Southbeach is worth it all by itself.

    edit, Smush Parker is a free agent now (not available to be expiring contract fodder), I guess, at least according to Wikipedia so it has to be true.

    Banks is not such a bad 3rd PG option either. The only way he can make this trade look bad is if he gets into stupid stuff like JT. I used to see him back in his college days at UNLV Thomas and Mack center, and he seemed like a cool dude. Not the type that would pull off a Jamaal Tinsley. Diener may head elsewhere after this season anyway so yea... I'd rather take Banks than buying JT out.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Why do they want to get rid of Banks beyond his contract? I thought I'd heard/seen before that he was a bad egg of some sort, too?

    Also, if you add Maceo Baston in, you could trade him and Tinsley for Banks and Haslem.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Why do they want to get rid of Banks beyond his contract? I thought I'd heard/seen before that he was a bad egg of some sort, too?

    Also, if you add Maceo Baston in, you could trade him and Tinsley for Banks and Haslem.
    They want to get rid of Banks because he still has 3 years left on his deal and he's just not that good of a player.

    I don't see the Heat giving up Haslem in any deal with the Pacers. Haslam has been a solid guy for them for awhile now and he's signed to a reasonable deal. He's basically their Jeff Foster.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Why do they want to get rid of Banks beyond his contract? I thought I'd heard/seen before that he was a bad egg of some sort, too?

    Also, if you add Maceo Baston in, you could trade him and Tinsley for Banks and Haslem.
    I'm thinking the same thing as well. For a team that is limited in point guard options, I think it's telling that they're looking to jettison someone that has Bank's talent.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    The Heat would take on Marbury without a second thought.

    If all Financially considerations are equal.....Marbury is less injury prone, is as good as Tinsley is on Defense, a better scorer then Tinsley is and would probably be considered equal as a Lockerroom presense.
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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Thats ok. We don't need to send him to the Heat. Let Marbury screw that team up for the next 3-5 years. See the NY Knicks. Wait until a starting PG goes down and they have no viable options. There will be a team whose PG goes down. Think Alston in Hou, Nash in Pho, Fisher in LA, Rondo in Bos, or Kidd in Dal. I dont think it would be the end of the world if Tinsley doesnt get traded until sometime into the season.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    ...Wait until a starting PG goes down and they have no viable options. There will be a team whose PG goes down. Think Alston in Hou, Nash in Pho, Fisher in LA, Rondo in Bos, or Kidd in Dal.
    Or maybe Arenas in Washington? Antonio Daniels is their only PG until late Dec, early Jan. Not sure who we would get/want from them though... Etan Thomas?
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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manguera View Post
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    Antonio Daniels is their only PG until late Dec, early Jan.
    At the earliest.
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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    I guess what I'm going to start telling myself is that the worst case scenario is he's an expiring contract in 2011 to shop.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    It's all good in my opinion.

    Marbury should be a great role model for Beasley. To be sure, Marbury at the helm should keep them out of legitimate contention for years. What a mix that would be down there. It reminds me of the failed pile-up of talent in Denver...that amounted to nothing in the playoffs.

    The alternative is Tinsley out the door. Another good move in my book. If Banks and Blount keep their nose clean, they are welcome to sit and clap for the rest of the team. It would be better than seeing Tinsley there.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    I recall someone (Bruno maybe?) seriously slamming Al on Pacers.com....to the point I would be surprised we would ever re-acquire him....because the statement was fairly personal in my book. I would like to have Al back regardless because I would start him at PF on this team...

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    But not really because it's not like the other team receives the TE. It just vaporizes.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    But not really because it's not like the other team receives the TE. It just vaporizes.
    So do some players. Carlos Rogers, for example.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    But not really because it's not like the other team receives the TE. It just vaporizes.
    it's true that the original trade exception vaporizes, but the team that "receives" the trade exception (i.e. sends away a player for nothing) will usually generate a new trade exception out of the transaction.

    so the vacant slot analogy is reasonably accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    This is why TE's expire the vast majority of the time, with the team holding them wishing to keep the salary relief for themselves (or the more mundane reason that they are simply too small to be useful, like the Ike exception). For example, Denver received (actually, created) a $10mm TE when they traded Marcus Camby to the Clippers, but their sole purpose for that trade was salary relief. They will almost certainly let that expire, in whole or in part, because the salary relief (and, in this case, tax relief as well) is likely of much more value to them than any player they could add.
    generally true, but the nuggets are a bad example. there's talk that they will use their $10m exception once iverson's $20m contract expires next year.

    which is not a bad plan. assuming that they're not interested in re-signing iverson, they will have some financial space to rebuild a younger roster - a $10m player from trade, and a mle player from free agency.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    it's true that the original trade exception vaporizes, but the team that "receives" the trade exception (i.e. sends away a player for nothing) will usually generate a new trade exception out of the transaction.

    so the vacant slot analogy is reasonably accurate.

    I've never heard that. As I understand it, you either have a big enough TE or you don't. If you do, that much is gone to acquire the player. The other team doesn't get a new TE.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I've never heard that. As I understand it, you either have a big enough TE or you don't. If you do, that much is gone to acquire the player. The other team doesn't get a new TE.
    Well, consider an example. Let's say team A has a TE, which is just enough to absorb player Z from team B. Both teams are over the cap so normal trade restrictions apply. Now, a trade involving player Z going to team A for zero salary (i.e. picks, cash, etc) is perfectly valid. Right? This part should be clear.

    But look at the trade from team B's perspective. They just sent out player Z for nothing (zero salary). In order to "balance" the trade (in terms of the CBA), a new trade exception equivalent to player Z's salary slot will be generated for team B.

    I can't think of any real life example right now. But I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Let's revisit the Denver Camby trade. In real life, the Clippers used cap space to absorb Camby's salary, thus generating a TE for Denver. However, hypothetically if the Clippers weren't under the cap but instead had a $10m TE, they could have done the same deal (Camby for nothing), with the same TE being generated for Denver. From Denver's perspective, it doesn't matter whether Clippers are using cap space or a TE - what matters is that they are sending away Camby's salary for nothing in exchange, which is what generates the TE for them.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    A little help from wikipedia. Not sure if this is accurate of course:

    Traded Player Exception: If a team trades away a player with a higher salary than the player they acquire in return (we'll call this initial deal "Trade #1"), they receive what is called a Traded Player Exception, also known colloquially as a "Trade Exception". Teams with a trade exception have up to a year in which they can acquire more salary in other trades (Trade #2, #3, etc) than they send away, as long as the gulf in salaries for Trade #2, #3, etc are less than or equal to the difference in salary for Trade #1. This exception is particularly useful when teams trade draft picks straight-up for a player; since draft picks have no salary value, often the only way to get salaries to match is to use a trade exception, which allows trades to be made despite unbalanced salaries. It is also useful to compensate teams for losing free agents as they can do a sign and trade of that free agent to acquire a trade exception that can be used later. Note this exception is for single player trades only, though additional cash and draft picks can be part of the trade.

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    Default Re: Tinsley or Marbury a tough call for the Heat ?

    I'll let count55 or somebody else confirm or deny but I'm pretty sure it does not work that way. For example, Atlanta did not get a TE after the 06 Al Harrington trade.

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