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Thread: Low post scoring

  1. #1
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Low post scoring

    There has been a lot of talk about our biggest need now being low post scoring. It's been bandied about in other threads and I wanted to start one dedicated to the topic.

    So far, we have Murphy, who is good outside but not in the post.

    Dunleavey: tall but not a post up threat.

    Foster. I love him, but, yeah.

    Rasho, who I don't know much about.

    Hibbert, who, by most reports, won't be the threat we need, at least not right away.

    Danny: also a perimeter and drive to the hoop guy. Not a post up player.


    Who do we go to in the post?

    Will we need to make a trade? For who?

    Do you think we will just have to accept this weakness and fix the problem next year?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    A consistent low post threat is something most teams in the league crave, but don't have. How long have the Bulls been looking for such a player, but have been unable to get despite all their assets?

    It's a hard thing to obtain.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Low post scoring

    It's why I'm sort of disappointed we don't have Ike anymore. He wasn't a great passer and sometimes didn't even think of passing, but he did show some brilliance at the beginning of last season. It would have been interesting to see how he blended with this new team, that is, if JOB even would have given him minutes. Which, therein lay the problem.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoddage View Post
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    It's why I'm sort of disappointed we don't have Ike anymore. He wasn't a great passer and sometimes didn't even think of passing, but he did show some brilliance at the beginning of last season. It would have been interesting to see how he blended with this new team, that is, if JOB even would have given him minutes. Which, therein lay the problem.
    If we really want him back, I'm sure we can pick him up from waivers when the Blazers waive him.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    I think high post PnR and lots of PnPops are what you can expect this year, not a lot of low post play on the horizon. At least for this coach that's not such a concern as it would be with others.

    Personally I think any team that can't attack every aspect of the floor is just waiting to get shut down by a game plan against them, though during a busy season you can sneak up on most teams. You get burned much worse when you hit those playoff series and the secrets are all out in the open by game 3.

    But then I think most of us would be thrilled just to see this roster make the playoffs so a lack of post offense knocking them out wouldn't really be the end of the world this year.

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But then I think most of us would be thrilled just to see this roster make the playoffs so a lack of post offense knocking them out wouldn't really be the end of the world this year.
    What he said.
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    A consistent low post threat is something most teams in the league crave, but don't have. How long have the Bulls been looking for such a player, but have been unable to get despite all their assets?

    It's a hard thing to obtain.
    Minor thing....but the Bulls had the opportunity to draft a Low-Post threat...they just ( for some reason ) chose to go with Tyrus Thomas instead of LaMarcus Aldridge.
    Last edited by CableKC; 09-03-2008 at 11:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    I wish Zach Randolph wasn't such a problem off the court, he would be perfect for this team.. he can hit the long range shot, post up, and rebound. Plus he would fit in since he plays terrible defense.

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    I wish Zach Randolph wasn't such a problem off the court, he would be perfect for this team.. he can hit the long range shot, post up, and rebound. Plus he would fit in since he plays terrible defense.
    ya but his contract is way too much.

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Next headline: Current Pacers lack low-post scoring; fans - of course - blame O'Neal.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Next headline: Current Pacers lack low-post scoring; fans - of course - blame O'Neal.
    If JO plays in Toronto (healthy) then the fans do have a reason to blame him. He said he wasnt happy in Indy and thats why he didnt play...

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Why are expectations so low for Hibbert in this category? Sure, he won't be any kind of dominant low post scorer, but I would be pretty satisfied with "effective".
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Why are expectations so low for Hibbert in this category? Sure, he won't be any kind of dominant low post scorer, but I would be pretty satisfied with "effective".
    the reason why I dont see Hibbert fitting into the Pacers is because JOB's system isnt really made for Hibbert (thats why I was surprised pacers picked him).

    Hibbert cannot shoot jumpers, hes not very mobile, as is getting up and down the court quickly. I dont see him fitting well into JOBs system. Hibbert is more made for a half-court defensive minded team, like the Spurs or Pistons

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Another reason why expectations are low for Hibbert is his minutes are going to be low next season.

  15. #15
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    it wouldn't surprise me if we start posting up danny, especially when he's playing the 4 spot. well, i think we will be using danny as an undersized 4 for some stretches anyway.

    having some serious size now at the center spot helps makes this possible i think.

    but yeah, we might not be able to find low post solution for this season.

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Why are expectations so low for Hibbert in this category? Sure, he won't be any kind of dominant low post scorer, but I would be pretty satisfied with "effective".
    Agreed

    While I haven't seen it personally, have read that Hibbert has quite a nice
    hook-shot in close to the hoop.

    Will be very interesting to see if he uses it effectively against NBA defenders.

    If he can hit it consistantly with good FG%, then go to it when needed and
    allow him to develop his skill and confidence.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    it wouldn't surprise me if we start posting up danny, especially when he's playing the 4 spot.
    ? It seems like that would make more sense if he was playing the three, thus possibly being taller than his defender.

    Anyway, Danny hasn't shown much ability to score in the post. I do pray he has the heart of a champion and develops some moves down there. Lord knows he surprised the heck out of me with the development of his three point shot, so I do think it's possible.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Hibbert cannot shoot jumpers, hes not very mobile, as is getting up and down the court quickly. I dont see him fitting well into JOBs system. Hibbert is more made for a half-court defensive minded team, like the Spurs or Pistons
    Coupla things:

    1. O'Brien IS a defensive-minded coach.

    There wasn't much evidence of it last year because some of the players didn't get the scheme. But O'Brien wants a strong defense. He just doesn't think slowing down your offense to keep possession is the same as good defense, even if it does lower the opponent's final score.


    2. Hibbert's speed is not going to be a problem.

    He's not Usain Bolt, but Hibbert can run the length of a basketball court in less than 24 seconds. Last season, the Pacers were one of the quickest-shooting teams in the NBA, but even they shot only 43% of their field goal attemopts in the first 10 seconds of a possession. No center is vital to a fast break. You expect to go 2 on 1 or 3 on 2. But 5 on 5 fast breaks are not very common.


    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan
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    Who do we go to in the post?
    The answer has got to be: "Whoever is open." We aren't going to have a go-to guy, and we aren't going to run isolation plays for anybody the way we did for O'Neal. But the guys we have can score if you get them the ball 5 feet from the basket and a step on their defender. that's what our inside game is going to be until and unless Hibbert becomes what we hope.


    Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.


    .
    Last edited by Putnam; 09-04-2008 at 09:26 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Minor thing....but the Bulls had the opportunity to draft a Low-Post threat...they just ( for some reason ) chose to go with Tyrus Thomas instead of LaMarcus Aldridge.
    Aldridge isn't really all that much of a low-post player. He plays mostly facing the basket.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Low post scoring is less important than it used to be in the NBA. With the zone rules as they are -it is much easier to defend a really good low post player.

    If you have a player like Kobe, Lebron, Pierce, Wade - you really don't need a low post player. of course we don't have a player like that

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Low post scoring is less important than it used to be in the NBA. With the zone rules as they are -it is much easier to defend a really good low post player.
    That's right, I'm glad that we agree that you can take an un-physical, unimpressive defender (Jeff Foster, for instance) and have him front (zone) the post, and your team might have some success with it in short spurts. Next thing you know, everyone will be praising his "post defense".

    Good offense beats good defense, and will eventually beat a gimmick defense. That's where we disagree. Give me a capable low-post scorer. Let's force our opponents into a gimmick defense (triple-teaming JO, like Stan Van Gundy and Lawrence Frank do all the time) and let the rest of the team benefit. The game hasn't changed as much as you say it has. That is still the higher percentage play (assuming that the rest of the team keeps moving so that the post player can pass them the ball.)

    Headline: Other Four Pacers stop moving; fans mistakenly blame JO.

    Rick never figured how to draw up an offense where he isolated his best player but kept the other four players involved. Hell, even The Quick did that, and we all agree that was a terrible offensive scheme.

    PS - Why did the nickname "The Slow" never catch on for Rick's offensive schemes?

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    2nd edit: Or "The Dead?"

    We could refer to the 2000s-era Pacers as the years of "The Quick and The Dead"!
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Although having an elite post scorer maybe as necessary as Quoting JayRedd on serious matters. But I would have to say that it should not be completely devalued. Having a low-post score can open up your shooters.

    Having better big men who can screen maybe of greater importance in this system. But don't forget that LA and SA utilize post scoring.

  23. #23
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Where Jay and I disagree is that I don't think Rick asked the players to stop moving away from the ball. He had guys do nothing but move off the low post when Jackson, Smits, Dale and Tony hit the low post. Suddenly he hates off the ball movement? Doubtful.

    I blame the players on that one. I remember the Philly home opener where the only guys that would come to the rim without the ball were Harrison and Bender. It was making me nuts all night so it stood out when it happened.

    Those 2 did okay but nothing that stands out in the box. However that's the point when the Pacers rallied.

    If Jay wants to blame Rick for not being able to get guys to move off the ball, that's different. I just disagree that it was ever the intended scheme.

    I disagree that Rick and Jack didn't get along. But they did argue and I think his stopping of ball movement and tendancy to iso himself for 6 seconds was part of that. Just like I also think Tinsley often went rogue on the team and just did his own crap (see, JOB/PHX).

    At some point your job ends up balancing nutbars and attitudes and you're thankful just to be able to field a team. Getting them to run your schemes doesn't even come up as an option. See Larry Brown and the Knicks.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 09-04-2008 at 01:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    Other than Mark Jackson, when did any of those guys become "post" options? Maybe Tony. Nobody wanted to pass the ball to Dave oven-mitts Davis on offense, he was just there to rebound and set picks. Rik was a 7'4" SF.

    Off the ball movement was Jackson standing at the top, dribbling, while Reggie came off a triple screen.

    There wasn't much off-the-ball movement when either Jalen or Travis had the ball.

    What's the famous "run out the clock play?" Oh yeah, let Travis dribble the ball until the clock is about to expire, then drive off a screen that Dale has been in postion to set for about 12 seconds, get to the rim and have your shot blocked. No movement.

    Jalen gets the ball on the left wing and has a thousand high-percentage one-on-one moves. (You can ***** about the rest of Jalen's game but that part is undeniable.) But there was no movement then, either.

    I understand the players were uncoachable and had bad habits. But you are discounting gamplan.

    Somebody probably should get this back on topic. Next thing you know, I'll be preaching that they should be playing the young guys.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Low post scoring

    The 61 win 2004 team had tons of low post options.
    JO
    Artest
    Harrington
    Tinsley
    - but of course that teams was horrible - so it really doesn't count

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