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Thread: Olympic Basketball Thread

  1. #651
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I suppose I think the key to this Olympics for the US was LeBron.

    From what I saw in the games I could watch and what I read and heard, he was the active integrating part of the team. I've always been impressed by the way he came into the league as a team player in spite of the hype machine, and I think he showed it here.

    Everyone embracing a team attitude and communicating well (plus accepting that they were an Olympic team and not a bunch of traveling all-stars on an exhibition spree) made the difference.
    He definately was strong and important. He kept the ball moving on offense. There were a couple of scores he had that wondered if he could that why not every time? I mean he would weave and soar over their entire team. And then he would fade away while others stepped up.

    Defensively he was important and he helped start fast breaks. A lot of the steals where because LeBron was guarding a release player so easily.

  2. #652
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Israfan, I don't believe the USA team had their best game at all. They were embarrassing on defense for stretches. Defense was normally their calling card.
    Perimeter defense was their calling card. Turnovers and pressure were the key to the game in this one just as in US victories before. But you can't expect to play such high pressure defense and play four perimeter players and one big, then not give up offensive rebounds and backdoor points. I think they were poor on the latter two fronts, but not much worse than usual. You just didn't notice in the previous games because other teams handled the pressure even worse than Spain. I'm not criticizing the post players per se (except to say that Howard needs to find a way to make himself relevant down the stretch) but saying that the system is high-risk/high-reward, and they weren't good at recovering when Spain got past the perimeter pressure (Spain's guard kept blowing by Paul and a few of the other perimeter defenders*). To be fair, the US probably won the tournament because of that style.

    *Note, it's interesting that despite all the hype about Chris Paul (and he is a great player, no doubt), I don't think he's a very good defender. He can poke away careless ball handling and play passing lanes, but he doesn't seem to have superior lateral quickness on the defensive end and his size is sometimes a bit of a concern.
    Last edited by bulldog; 08-25-2008 at 01:30 PM.

  3. #653
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartlandFan View Post
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    Where did I say this was a blowout? It was a very difficult game for the US. It was a lot tougher than I was expecting. But if you think Spain was playing this way for the whole olympics, I will have to seriously disagree with that.

    They played the best game of their Olympics and it came at the right time. I still think they overachieved in this game..You can disagree if you like, I couldn't care less.
    First to me your tone was indicative of it being a "walk in the park"-type of victory. Like "woohoo even though Spain played their best game ever and had everything going for them they still lost in double digits!!!"

    Secondly this was Spains best game of the tournament, but they had been playing pretty much down to what we are used from them, so it was about time. I don't think they overachieved. I think this is what Spain is supposed to play like. I also could pass the ball back and say that the US shot a lot better then they normally do. Does that detract from the US performance? No to me, but the otherway around it somehow does. Then it's "they are shooting better then ever before, oh oh so lucky for them (normally we would kick their asses with a 30pt differential)"-sort of attitude.

    And about the caring less part... good to know, says more about you then me though.

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  4. #654
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    You honestly don't think they overachieved during the game?

    Admittingly, I don't watch a whole lot of international ball and have only watched Rudy a few times, but some of the 3s he was hitting was absolutely amazing.

    He was launching the ball 20 ft into the air and hitting. It wasn't just a little adjustment on his normal shooting, but a HUGE change in the trajectory of his normal shot.

    He was being defended well, with a hand not in his face but pretty close to getting a piece of the ball. They were rainbow shots that barely moved the net because they were practically coming down at a 90degree angle.

    I would take a player shooting those type of shots every single day of the week. There are going to be a handful of days out of the year were a player hits that many difficult shots.

    I would say Pau played like he normally does, and I didn't see much change in the way some of the other players performed, but Rudy and Navarro (along with Rubio to an extent) really stepped up their game.

    I'm giving them a compliment BTW. I think they gave a life time performance on the biggest stage against the best of the NBA's best. Do you honestly think they could play like that consistantly? That is the question.

    I can not fathom them being able to replicate that kind of performance consecutively, or even periodically. If Navarro could perform like that night in and night out he would have made a much bigger impact in the league, and Fernadez would have been here a long time ago.

    That was a hell of a performance they put on, but a performance that I doubt they can replicate very often.

    EDIT: You really couldn't pass the ball back saying the US shot better than normal. They're FG% was pretty spot on to what it's been throughout the tourney. Wade and Kobe hit a couple tough 3s, but in the grand scheme of the game, the team was getting open looks. Melo had a couple wide open 3s on the wing, and Paul/DWil were routinely open in the corners.

    If Kobe hadn't started the games 1-17 from 3, you would have saw a different overall 3pt% for the team.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-25-2008 at 04:11 PM.

  5. #655
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Rudy played out of his mind, I don't expect to see that for the Trailblazers every night next year. But every once in a while, that would make them a fun team.

    However, I still do think the US also played better than usual on the offensive end, truly a game where two good teams brought out the best in each other (Kobe living up to the moment, Wade playing great perimeter D, etc.) I'm not sure you can compare stats with previous games because this one was competitive until the last minutes, whereas others were over by halftime.
    Last edited by bulldog; 08-25-2008 at 04:29 PM.

  6. #656

    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    You haven't watched Rudy play yet you say that was a huge adjustment on his shot? just watching a couple youtube highlights of his play in Europe would have shown you that it's normal shot for him, he launches these kind of threes under pressure almost every game. Navarro shot 6/14, hes had alot of games better than this in NBA.

    And i don't understand one thing, USA won, but some of you feel dissapointed that it wasn't a 40 point blowout and need to put down the opponent? I guess that all of Spains players played the game of their lives they should just retire. Common now, that was a very good game, but the game of their lives? Where would a 50 point drubbing of a healthy Argentina team rank? If it makes you feel better you can pretend that USA won by 60 points, i guess gold is not good enough.
    Last edited by Chewy; 08-25-2008 at 04:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
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    You haven't watched Rudy play yet you say that was a huge adjustment on his shot? just watching a couple youtube highlights of his play in Europe would have shown you that it's normal shot for him, he launches these kind of threes under pressure almost every game.

    And i don't understand one thing, USA won, but some of you feel dissapointed that it wasn't a 40 point blowout and need to put down the opponent? I guess that all of Spains players played the game of their lives they should just retire. Common now, that was a very good game, but the game of their lives? Where would a 50 point drubbing of a healthy Argentina team rank? If it makes you feel better you can pretend that USA won by 60 points, i guess gold is not good enough.
    You don't need a stinking PhD. to see the difference in the arc on his shot. He was shooting rainbows to get the ball released because of the defenders. He didn't shoot that high of an arc when a hand was in his face, but was forced too due to the hand being at his release point.

    I can't access clips while here at work, but I'm sure you can do it yourself. His release on numerous shots were very different than what he normally does. I'm not taking away from his performance, it was something to watch and to get excited about considering Portland is my 2nd favorite team.

    Yes, you could very plainly see that his shot/release was being altered due to the defender and hitting those high trajectory shots are extremely difficult due to the higher degree of distance control because you don't flick your wrist the same as a lower trajectory.


    And yes, I stand by my comment that they played the game of their lives. Considering how they played, the atmosphere of the game, who they were playing, and what the stakes are I would be willing to bet it ranks pretty high up on their list of the best games they've ever played. (Talking about Rudy and Navarro.)

    Outside of the fouls, what else could you expect Fernadez to do? He did what he wanted, when he wanted, and the results came out in his favor more often than not. Navarro was playing against the top tier PGs in the NBA and getting into the lane at will. He didn't/couldn't do that in Memphis on the regular basis that he did the other night.

    Those two in particular played as well as you could ever asked them too. I think the rest of the Spainish team played about how they normally do, but when two guys go up an extra gear or two the gap between the two teams get even closer.

    It's not rocket science. I didn't expect another blowout, I expected around 15pts difference if both teams play at their "normal" level. Two of the Spainish players out performed their "normal" thus making it a closer game.

  8. #658
    Member bulldog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Team USA plus-minus stats, via TrueHoop:
    http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics...f3a6cdc41bfbef

    Know lots of you don't believe in this stuff (particularly when calculated over 40 minutes) but for those who do, interesting how Bosh's contribution comes out and Kobe comes up as less effective.

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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It's not rocket science. I didn't expect another blowout, I expected around 15pts difference if both teams play at their "normal" level. Two of the Spainish players out performed their "normal" thus making it a closer game.
    Yes, it's pretty simple. It's natural...almost a given...when a team blows out another team for the next game to be closer. It's a natural tendency for players to let down a bit after beating another team by 40 points....and for the other team to be up. None of this should be a surprise. This is true whether you are playing one-on-one at the park or in the olympics. It's happens all the time and I suspect most everyone posting here is aware of that...particularly if you have ever played competitively.

    If Spain had made a better showing the first time around, the final game would not have been quite as close. I suspect it would have been closer to 20 points or so instead of 11. If the first game had been really close, I would not be surprised if we beat them to death in the medal game. This doesn't say anything about how good these teams are, but more about human nature. All things considered, there is probably about a 15 point difference between Team USA and all the other top clubs on average...and that difference might be 20.

  10. #660

    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You don't need a stinking PhD. to see the difference in the arc on his shot. He was shooting rainbows to get the ball released because of the defenders. He didn't shoot that high of an arc when a hand was in his face, but was forced too due to the hand being at his release point.

    I can't access clips while here at work, but I'm sure you can do it yourself. His release on numerous shots were very different than what he normally does. I'm not taking away from his performance, it was something to watch and to get excited about considering Portland is my 2nd favorite team.

    Yes, you could very plainly see that his shot/release was being altered due to the defender and hitting those high trajectory shots are extremely difficult due to the higher degree of distance control because you don't flick your wrist the same as a lower trajectory.


    And yes, I stand by my comment that they played the game of their lives. Considering how they played, the atmosphere of the game, who they were playing, and what the stakes are I would be willing to bet it ranks pretty high up on their list of the best games they've ever played. (Talking about Rudy and Navarro.)

    Outside of the fouls, what else could you expect Fernadez to do? He did what he wanted, when he wanted, and the results came out in his favor more often than not. Navarro was playing against the top tier PGs in the NBA and getting into the lane at will. He didn't/couldn't do that in Memphis on the regular basis that he did the other night.

    Those two in particular played as well as you could ever asked them too. I think the rest of the Spainish team played about how they normally do, but when two guys go up an extra gear or two the gap between the two teams get even closer.

    It's not rocket science. I didn't expect another blowout, I expected around 15pts difference if both teams play at their "normal" level. Two of the Spainish players out performed their "normal" thus making it a closer game.
    What is "normal" and how often do players have "normal" games, i don't see anything extraordinary if player plays better than "normal" it happens every freaking game, someone plays above average, someone below, if everyone played to their average they would not even need to play. unless youv'e seen every game the player played, how can you say they played the game of their lives? You said considering who they played, what was at stake and the atmosphere of the game, but it was the only game, there is nothing to compare to, whose to say they wouldn't duplicate this performace a couple times if they played a series of games. It was an excellent game for navarro and even better for Rudy, it was certainly not their average. Maybe we just have different opinions of what is a game of their lives and arguing over words, then i'm sorry.

    I don't get this thing trying to quantify the quality of teams in points, have you ever argued how much Pacers are better than Knicks in points? If you really want to do that i guess you can take the average of the two games, USA is better then Spain by 24 points. Every game is different tho.
    Last edited by Chewy; 08-25-2008 at 05:42 PM.

  11. #661
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Sorry, I've been away for a few days. Has Borris came back and dined on his crow yet?

  12. #662
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacers View Post
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    Sorry, I've been away for a few days. Has Borris came back and dined on his crow yet?
    Don't worry about our friend Boris. He should be able to splain his way out of it. I hope he's around for the 2012 gold medal too...

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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Chewy, we can debate this all we want, but when you look at the stats and compare there really isn't all that much argument to be had.

    Navarro averaged for the games, 6.5 pts. In the gold medal game he put up 18pts.

    If that's not over performing, then I don't know what is. Maybe I should have swapped out the word normal and used average since, due to the fact you want to argue semantics.

    Oh, and the same goes for Fernadez and his 13.1 ppg average considering he put up 22 in the gold medal game.

    Go back and look at the rest of the team, compare their averages to what they did in the gold medal game, and they outperformed their averages by 6 total points. Four players were above their average (outside of Fernadez and Navarro), and four were under.

    Rudy and Navarro outscored their average by 21 points.

  14. #664

    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Chewy, we can debate this all we want, but when you look at the stats and compare there really isn't all that much argument to be had.

    Navarro averaged for the games, 6.5 pts. In the gold medal game he put up 18pts.

    If that's not over performing, then I don't know what is. Maybe I should have swapped out the word normal and used average since, due to the fact you want to argue semantics.

    Oh, and the same goes for Fernadez and his 13.1 ppg average considering he put up 22 in the gold medal game.

    Go back and look at the rest of the team, compare their averages to what they did in the gold medal game, and they outperformed their averages by 6 total points. Four players were above their average (outside of Fernadez and Navarro), and four were under.

    Rudy and Navarro outscored their average by 21 points.
    Where did i ever say that they didn't perform over their averages? didn't i say exactly the opposite, didn't i say that they had excellent performances? But the game of their lives, no. But since you dismiss every single game they played ever weather in Europe or NBA due to the inferior competition, the importance of the match and atmosphere, then you can say Raul Lopez had the game of his life too.

  15. #665
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Chewy, we can debate this all we want, but when you look at the stats and compare there really isn't all that much argument to be had.

    Navarro averaged for the games, 6.5 pts. In the gold medal game he put up 18pts.

    If that's not over performing, then I don't know what is. Maybe I should have swapped out the word normal and used average since, due to the fact you want to argue semantics.

    Oh, and the same goes for Fernadez and his 13.1 ppg average considering he put up 22 in the gold medal game.

    Go back and look at the rest of the team, compare their averages to what they did in the gold medal game, and they outperformed their averages by 6 total points. Four players were above their average (outside of Fernadez and Navarro), and four were under.

    Rudy and Navarro outscored their average by 21 points.
    Dwyane Wade was averaging 14PPG coming into the finals...he scored 27 in the finals (including an absurd 4/7 from 3, which doubled his 3 total). Chris Paul was averaging 7PPG but scored 13 in the finals. These guys outscored their average by 19. We can play the statistics game all night long. The point is that it was a well played game offensively by both sides but the better, deeper and more talented team prevailed. But let's give Spain some credit. And had Wade, for example, not shot out of his mind from 3 (which is not unusual considering his normal range), Spain might have even won.

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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Dwyane Wade was averaging 14PPG coming into the finals...he scored 27 in the finals (including an absurd 4/7 from 3, which doubled his 3 total). Chris Paul was averaging 7PPG but scored 13 in the finals. These guys outscored their average by 19. We can play the statistics game all night long. The point is that it was a well played game offensively by both sides but the better, deeper and more talented team prevailed. But let's give Spain some credit. And had Wade, for example, not shot out of his mind from 3 (which is not unusual considering his normal range), Spain might have even won.
    Couldn't have said it any better!
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    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
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    Where did i ever say that they didn't perform over their averages? didn't i say exactly the opposite, didn't i say that they had excellent performances? But the game of their lives, no. But since you dismiss every single game they played ever weather in Europe or NBA due to the inferior competition, the importance of the match and atmosphere, then you can say Raul Lopez had the game of his life too.
    Like I said, you want to argue semantics.

    Are you seriously contending that I'm 100% serious, as in they played the GREATEST game they will ever play? That they will never and have never played a better game than they did?

    Since you're getting caught up in definitions, maybe hyperbole would do some good.

    As far as dismissing any other game they've played in, are you suggesting that Navarro's midseason game against X opponent was on a bigger stage? I mean, he played how many finals games while in Memphis?

    I think I'll take the word of a three time NBA champion, along with another NBA champ (and Finals MVP) that said the Gold medal game is the biggest game they've ever played in, over some ordinary NBA game that Navarro has only played in. Do I really even need to respond that a Euro league game would hold more weight? I don't think comparing Euro league and the NBA is worth an argument let alone when people that have the accalades that Kobe and DWade do say that their medal means more than their rings.

    Those two in particular, Rudy and Navarro, went above and beyond what was expected of them. I would even say that Dwayne put on one of his best performances. I expect a player of Kobe's stature to hit the shots that he hit, so I really can't include him. But the plays from outside that Wade was making was a pleasant surprise. Those three played about as well as you could ever ask them to play.


    I honestly don't understand why you're getting all miffed at this. I said it very early. I'm not insulting them or putting down the Spainish team, especially those two players. It's a compliment that they were able to outperform what themselves on such a big stage, which was my original post to begin with.

    You cannot ask Rudy to hit those shots again, with the type of defense that was guarding him. He hit several low percentage shots, and made them look easy. He played out of his mind basketball. There's a big difference him doing that against Angola and doing that against Kobe.

  18. #668

    Default Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Oh you weren't 100% serious, then i'm sorry and i guess i did argue semantics then and i might have mixed you up with Heartland Fan originally.

    I wasn't disputing that it was the best competition they have ever faced, it would be for any player. And never did i even hint at anything that would say that Euroleague is comparable to NBA.

    Rexnom and Mourning earlier summed it up perfectly how i feel, they are way better at expressing themselves in english than i am.
    Last edited by Chewy; 08-26-2008 at 12:18 PM.

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