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Thread: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

  1. #26
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I think it's okay to disagree with anyone, including John Wooden. Let's not make Legends out to be infallible. And really, I'm not trying to say he's wrong, just that I disagree and think there's another way. One I happen to think is better.
    The discussion is about the top underrated aspects of the game.

    I would think that when there are clearly two completely different concepts when it comes to boxing out, by some of the greatest minds ever, it doesn't fall in the category. That was my point.

    Wooden's resume speaks for itself. I tend to think the philosophy on boxing out becomes pretty trival on which is better if such records can be achieved by not doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I still say John Wooden wanted his players to find a man, seal him, and THEN go get the ball. That's still blocking out.

    -Bball

    He didn't teach making contact with the opposing player at all, only to get in their way and go after the ball.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=B_n...um=8&ct=result

    simply step in your opponents path, and go after the ball. Wooden's method, called called the check-and-go, might be best when your quickness and leaping ability are much superior to your opponent's.

    He might be playing semantics, with it boxing out or not, but he doesn't mean seal the opposing player with body contact. Putting your body directly in the path of the opposing player and the ball seals them from it.

    EDIT: I'll add on to it. I know I've told the story before, but my first intro to Wooden and this philosophy was in person listening to him talk at Hinkle Fieldhouse about 6-7 years ago. He said boxing out tended to turn into fighting for position, instead of fighting for the ball. Players would be so worried about making contact and holding them off, they would completely forget that the ball is needed to get a rebound. The aspect of boxing out became more important than the ball itself.

    By putting your body between the opposing player's and the ball forced them to go around you or go through you.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-04-2008 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Even a few years ago, I'd be the type of crazy fan that would scream at Pacers that did not box out. (Rik Smits, I'm still talking to you.) Then I started studying this John Wooden school of thought, and my opinion has changed.

    In fact, in the NBA, I think it is far more important for the guards to either box out or cherry pick, but the forwards and centers need to have a knack for the ball.

    It helps for each team to have a rugged rebounder (like Dale) and a speed/ timing rebounder (like Jeff.) Of course, I'd also like a rebounder that can put an offensive rebound back into the damn basket, and so that eliminates both Jeff and Dale from consideration.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
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    And life itself, rushing over me
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  3. #28
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Did Wooden's philosophy on boxing out come before or after his "have twice as much talent as the team you're playing" philosophy?

    Wooden's a great coach, no doubt, but the key to the level of success that he had was talent, not his views on boxing out.

    However, I think this sums up the situation best:

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    IMHO, there isn't a set way to rebound. Each player should be coached on their ability. Foster's production would go down if he boxed out, but JO's would go up.

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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    I don't think Rodman worried about boxing out as much as being an expert on where the ball was going to end up. I remember rading or hearing him say that is what he did. He tried to be where the ball was going to end up. That may take more time to learn than boaxing out.

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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    It helps for each team to have a rugged rebounder (like Dale) and a speed/ timing rebounder (like Jeff.) Of course, I'd also like a rebounder that can put an offensive rebound back into the damn basket, and so that eliminates both Jeff and Dale from consideration.
    Didn't Jeff's putbacks improve immensely this year (yeah, I know, like it would be hard not to) since he became more involved in offense as a whole?
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Didn't Jeff's putbacks improve immensely this year (yeah, I know, like it would be hard not to) since he became more involved in offense as a whole?
    I thought so, too. But according to the 82games data Foster hasn't improved in the put-back area.


    07-08 season

    373 FGA
    9% of all his shots were tip-ins or put-backs
    .438 effective Field Goal percentage on tip-ins


    06-07 season

    260 FGA
    10% of all shots
    .440 eFG%


    05-06

    250 FGA
    12% of shots
    .586 eFG%


    On the other hand, Foster is becoming a beast with the J.

    In 05-06, jump shots were only 11% of all his shots, and his eFG% for jumpshots was a dismal .148. In this past season, 36% of Foster's shots were jump shots, and his eFG was .363 for jumpshots. His eFG% was .655 on all close shots and .550 overall. Foster played more minutes and took far more shots last year than in either of the two preceding seasons, leading to his best year since 03-04.

    And the guy wasn't even mentioned for the NBA's Most Improved Player!
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  7. #32
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Jeff does block out on defensive rebounding - but you don't/can't block out when offensive rebounding - you just go get the ball.

    JO never blocks out and he gets a lot of rebounds because of it, but he also allows his man to get a lot of offensive rebounds and although I certainly don't have any stats to support my opinion - but it seems to me that the Pacers have been a better rebounding team when JO is not in the game.

    Putnam - I'm not sure I understand all those stats. But if he shots 36% on jump shots and 65.5% on close shots - then heck yes he was much better last season than in prior years at putbacks. What am I missing
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 08-05-2008 at 10:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    I don't think Rodman worried about boxing out as much as being an expert on where the ball was going to end up. I remember rading or hearing him say that is what he did. He tried to be where the ball was going to end up. That may take more time to learn than boaxing out.
    Word on the street is that in Rodman's younger years, he'd actually sneak a peek at an opponent's practice shoot around (the one before the "official" shootaround) and observed what their missed shots looked like.

    He'd do this to gauge where their missed shots would tend to carom to.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm not sure I understand all those stats. But if he shots 36% on jump shots and 65.5% on close shots - then heck yes he was much better last season than in prior years at putbacks. What am I missing?

    He was a more efficient scorer at put-backs than at jumpshots. That is what the numbers you cite are showing. But over the past few seasons he hasn't improved with tip-ins, either in terms of how many he attempts or how many of them go in.

    Two seasons earlier, put-backs were 12% of all his shots, and he made .586 of them. Last year, put-backs were only 9% of all his shots, and he made only .438 of them. So he hasn't improved at putbacks, though his overall scoring improved quite a bit.

    That's what these numbers show, anyway. I don't recall hearing or reading many comments of Foster's offense improving during the past season. Of course he was never a go-to guy, but he seems to have become a capable option. Was it overlooked, or did I just not notice it?
    Last edited by Putnam; 08-05-2008 at 11:39 AM.
    And I won't be here to see the day
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  10. #35
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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    I would absolutely agree that rebounding, whether boxing out or going after the ball, is something that is lacking in the NBA. Rebounds will never be as flashy a statistic as points or assists, so a lot of young players don't focus on it.

    I think that free throw shooting is the most underrated and ignored fundamental in the NBA. I can't believe the amount of players that make millions, but only shoot 60-70 percent at the line! Great free throw shooting comes from disciplined hard work and practice, which all seem to be dirty words for today's superstar athletes. Shaq is the worst offender. He has a career points avg. of 25.2 and an avg. free throw % of .524. According to his numbers, if he could have worked hard and raised his % to .700, his career avg. would be around 30 ppg.

    Dale Davis, Jeff Foster and JO proved that if you want to improve your free throw %, you can. It just takes some hard work and determination. Oops, there I go using those dirty words again.
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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Didn't Jeff's putbacks improve immensely this year (yeah, I know, like it would be hard not to) since he became more involved in offense as a whole?
    I've heard that rumor. Of course, prior to last last season, there was only one way to go... up.

    My bigger beef isn't his putback FG%, although it is comical. They just should not credit him for five offensive rebounds on a single possession when all he was doing tipping the ball to himself off the backboard. Clark Kellogg would call him a stat-sheet-stuffer as he racks up multiple FGAs and ORs on a single possession (and Clark should know what a stat-sheet stuffer looks like).

    I think Jeff is an above average guy on the offensive glass but his stats (padded from all his rebounds of his own missed putbacks) make him look more effective than he really is.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #37
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    My bigger beef isn't his putback FG%, although it is comical. They just should not credit him for five offensive rebounds on a single possession when all he was doing tipping the ball to himself off the backboard. Clark Kellogg would call him a stat-sheet-stuffer as he racks up multiple FGAs and ORs on a single possession (and Clark should know what a stat-sheet stuffer looks like).

    I think Jeff is an above average guy on the offensive glass but his stats (padded from all his rebounds of his own missed putbacks) make him look more effective than he really is.

    OK, what % of his offensive rebounds do you really think are second, third, or fourth attempts on the same possession. I would argue it is statistically insignificant (the king of doing this was Moses Malone - he was much better at it than Jeff)

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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, what % of his offensive rebounds do you really think are second, third, or fourth attempts on the same possession. I would argue it is statistically insignificant (the king of doing this was Moses Malone - he was much better at it than Jeff)
    There is a trend - he legitamtely gets 3/4 ORs per game, and that is very good. Don't get me wrong. But look at his games with 5+ ORs and you'll find that many of those games have at least one stretch of multiple put-back attempts. I've done this research before and it might be in a thread around here somewhere.

    My pet peeve is that he'll get a standing ovation for "great hustle", which overlooks the fact that the great hustle resulted in zero points. Effort, without results, just doesn't impress me as much as results do.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #39
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    There is a trend - he legitamtely gets 3/4 ORs per game, and that is very good. Don't get me wrong. But look at his games with 5+ ORs and you'll find that many of those games have at least one stretch of multiple put-back attempts. I've done this research before and it might be in a thread around here somewhere.

    My pet peeve is that he'll get a standing ovation for "great hustle", which overlooks the fact that the great hustle resulted in zero points. Effort, without results, just doesn't impress me as much as results do.

    Maybe once every 5 or 6 games, he might do one of those multiple rebound episodes. But then again, a lot of those are extremely difficult rebounds to begin with - rebounds most other players wouldn't have evern tried for let alone get a finger tip on. Yes, I'll give hima standing ovation every time - hustle can't ever be appreciated enough if you ask me.

    last season Jeff was the 6th best offensive rebounder in the NBA - and that was not adjusted on a per minute basis, and the others who averaged more per game played more minutes per game.


    Maybe no one really cares, but here are the offensive rebounding numbers

    1) Tyson Chandler - 4.1 per game. 322 OR. - 79 games played, averaged 35.3 minutes per game
    2) Al Jefferson - 3.8 per game. 308 OR. - 82 games played, averaged 35.6 minutes per game
    3) S. Dalenbert - 3.7 per game. 304 OR. - 82 games played, averaged 33.2 minutes per game
    4) Dwight Howard - 3.4 per game. 279 OR. - 82 games played, averaged 37.7 minutes per game
    5) B. Haywood - 3.4 per game. 273 OR. - 80 games played, averaged 27.8 minutes per game
    6) Jeff Foster - 3.4 per game. 264 OR. - 77 games played, averaged 24.3 minutes per game


    Another thing that perhaps makes Jeff's numbers seem even more impressive is compared to players like Jefferson and Howard, Jeff plays further away from the basket. I readily admit that Chandler is the best offensive rebounder in the NBA -But Jeff isn't too far behind
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 08-05-2008 at 02:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Maybe once every 5 or 6 games, he might do one of those multiple rebound episodes. But then again, a lot of those are extremely difficult rebounds to begin with - rebounds most other players wouldn't have evern tried for let alone get a finger tip on.
    What? I'm talking about the one-foot from the rim, with inside position put-back attempts.

    I don't argue that he's got an uncanny ability to get to the ball. He just struggles to make good things happen once he gets the ball. His #1 play is to pass the ball back to a guard to start a new play in a half-court set.

    If he could make good things happen reguarly when he's got the ball, he'd be a 35-mpg player. Even under Rick, while starting, Rick preferred to keep his minutes to < 22 per game.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    1) Tyson Chandler - 4.1 per game. 322 OR. - 79 games played, averaged 35.3 minutes per game
    2) Al Jefferson - 3.8 per game. 308 OR. - 82 games played, averaged 35.6 minutes per game
    3) S. Dalenbert - 3.7 per game. 304 OR. - 82 games played, averaged 33.2 minutes per game
    4) Dwight Howard - 3.4 per game. 279 OR. - 82 games played, averaged 37.7 minutes per game
    5) B. Haywood - 3.4 per game. 273 OR. - 80 games played, averaged 27.8 minutes per game
    6) Jeff Foster - 3.4 per game. 264 OR. - 77 games played, averaged 24.3 minutes per game
    Does anyone else remember how Haywood just ripped us apart on the offensive glass last year everytime we played Washington? I hope Rasho and Roy put a stop to that kind of crap.
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