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Thread: A series of questions....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default A series of questions....

    Ok, everybody I want to explain something up front before I start.

    Frankly I want to turn over a new leaf, I want to put the past 7 seasons behind me and just jump headlong into the future of our club.

    In doing this I want to make a commitment to myself, I want to stop talking about Ron Artest, Jon Bender, Jermaine O'Neal, the 61 win season, Brad Miller, the brawl, Donnie Walsh, etc., etc.

    I'm not saying that I know I will hold true to this but I want to try.

    But I know before I even try to do this that there are several several posts left in me on these topics. So instead of trying to supress them and have them boil over at some point in time in the future, I think what I want to do is have a series of posts where I ask some questions and get feedback from people and also I will give my opinion.

    My goal is to have this done by the end of Summer so that when we go to camp I want to be focusing on the future.

    I say this because for the first time in 7 seasons I feel that the future is bright and there is no one on the team that I either dislike or frankly hate.

    I may end up just talking to myself here as I'm sure most of you are bored with seeing me talk about this stuff anyway. But I want to try it this way just to see if it works. If nothing else it will be something to talk about.

    So upfront I want to warn people. I am not going to hold back, in fact I am going to be the exact opposite of holding back on these because like I said I want to let it all out and let it go.

    So fair warning to Arcadian, Anthem and a few others of you that tend to frown whenever I express strong opinions. Enter this at your own risk. You will be seeing me say some things you won't like.

    I will start this series off with something that we discussed at the forum party.

    Frankly I did a p!ss poor job of getting this one out there because of my timing and by trying to combine to many topics all at once.

    I won't bother to rehash how it went bad at the party, I will just try and refocus here.

    STATEMENT

    While I believe that the economy, the winning % and apathy played a major portion into fans lack of attendance last season I also believe that there was a % of fans, no matter how small, that chose to punish the franchise for years of intollerable off court and on court behavior.

    I specifically believe that a certain % of fans were not punishing the franchise just because of player problems, but they were specifically punishing the management of the team and owners of the team for what they felt was breeding an environment where the players felt comfortable to have the off court on court issues.

    I do NOT believe that it was just one thing. Yes many people were upset about the brawl and 8 second saloon and club rio, etc., etc. etc.

    But I believe that it was a culmination of these events coupled with both the owners and Donnie Walsh using lawyer speak instead of taking decisive action against the players.

    Now I don't want to get into semantics about due process or mob mentallity. Those are all valid issues, but the empty seats spoke loud and clear as well.

    So far we have been told that this season they have already significantly improved ticket sales.

    This has been done without one more win on the board and without our economy making a major rebound.

    THE QUESTIONS

    1. Knowing that ticket sales have already increased can we just write off the fact that the culture of the team has changed and in changing this some of the fans are returning?

    2. Was the win loss % the only reason for last seasons attendance?

    3. Was the economy the only reason for last seasons attendance?

    4. Was a combination of the economy and win/loss % the only reasons for last seasons attendance?

    5. If neither of these or the combination of these was the reason, what other reasons are there?

    Ok, that is the first part of the quesiton section.

    Now I want a second section in this, probably could go up above but I want to seperate them.

    Here is where I will draw the fire, but in the spirit of my wanting to be free of all of this I will only say this. Bring it on.

    STATEMENT

    I do NOT feel as though the owners of the Pacers or their subordinate Donnie Walsh ever took any real responsibility for the brawl, nor any of the ensuing off court incidents.

    I speak only for myself here, I do not know if any other fan feels this way or not.

    Frankly I was ashamed of our club the night of the brawl but I was even more ashamed at the reaction of the upper tier in handling this.

    BillS made a wonderful point at the party in defense of Donnie and I absolutely agree with him. However in his defense of Walsh it also pointed out to me why I could not stand the way they reacted to the incidents.

    Remember now I am not just talking about the brawl itself, I'm talking about the culmanation of all of the events.

    Anyway, BillS point was that Donnie treated his players exactly how we would want our management or boss to treat us.

    That is an admirable quality btw, and frankly Walsh was always great about this. However Donnie for the majority of his career here dealt with grown men who acted like grown men. Sadly, IMO, the last seven years he was dealing with children and spoiled children at that. What was an admirable trait turned around and bit him in the @ss. Whether it was Ron continuing his assinine ways or Jamaal or any number of other players. Donnie was always patient, considerate and first to defend his players. Again noble traits to be sure.

    But there comes a point in time where people no longer deserve your defense and I think Walsh didn't realize it till it was to little to late.

    We had this great argument at the party about whether or not the Pacers ever took any responsibilty for the brawl. Duke Dynamite came up with some artcile that just said the Walsh apologized for thier part in the low point of sports. However reading furthing into that article, which I can't find now but I know someone will post to prove me wrong, I read every excuse in the world other than our players being in the wrong. I have since looked up all of Herb Simons quotes on the brawl and he is even worse that Walsh, frankly if he never spoke of the brawl again it would be a good idea. He states that we are going to back our players all the way.

    Now here comes the second part of my questions and understand I have no intention of rehashing the brawl, but if it happens then so be it.


    1. Am I wrong to feel that the team (owners and Walsh) never took actual responsibility for the actions of our players?

    2. If I am wrong, remember these are about feelings not facts, then was I the only person who felt that way? Or is it possible that a few others out there felt the same way and that this combined with other incidents where the management didn't respond with dissaproval of the players, might have kept a couple of people away?

    3. Was Ron Artest as popular at the fieldhouse as he was online?

    4. Was Steven Jackson unfairly painted by his actions at the brawl?

    5. Was Jermaine O'Neal an innocent vicitim of the brawl?

    There, feel free to answer whatever you want and feel free to flame away at me.

    Again, my goal is to talk about this now so that soon I will never have to talk about this again.

  2. #2
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Nothing I really want to reply to, because that was then and this is now. Still a good post!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    "Frankly I was ashamed of our club the night of the brawl but I was even more ashamed at the reaction of the upper tier in handling this."

    Most of the time in this forum I just post an occasional "Go Pacers" type of post. However, I feel that I must react to this. After the game, the analysts in the studio were doing things like calling the Detroit fan punks and saying that it was an outrage for there to be no security. It was not until the next day that anyone started blaming the Pacers. I am embarrassed that we as Pacer fans, and the team management, let the league and the media get away with this. The day after the attack I sent the following letter to Stern. I stand behind what I say in this letter and am real tired of the Pacers being blamed without any of the blame being levied on the Pistons, their fans, or their lack of security, not to mention the horrible job of handling this by the refs. Do I think Ron did the right thing, no....However, if you throw a cup full of beer into my face I'm going to react. Now considering that I haven't been in a fight for better than 40 years, that is quite a statement.

    David Stern November 21, 2004
    Commissioner NBA
    Olympic Tower,
    ffice:smarttags" />645 5th Ave.
    lace w:st="on">New York, NY 10022lace>

    fficeffice" />>>
    Dear Sir:
    >>
    As I write this I am awaiting word of your actions in regards to the basket ball game between the Pacers and the Pistons last Friday night. I realize this will not reach you in time to affect that decision but I feel moved to make my feelings known. I saw several things in this game that I have never seen in an NBA game. The security was non-existent, the only police I saw were standing out at the center of the floor. I saw a stadium security or usher punching Ron Artest from behind. I saw no effort by either the Pistons team or the Stadium officials to break up the fights or to protect the players. This is an outrage! Based on the provocation involved I feel that the FIRST thing you should do is suspend NBA basketball operations in lace w:st="on">Detroitlace> until the Palace and the Pistons can guarantee the safety of players from opposing teams. Unless you do this you are sending the message to those fans who started the incident that they can affect the outcome of the NBA season (in their teams favor) by starting provoking a fight with the players.
    >>
    AFTER you deal with the Pistons, then you should levy the expected suspensions against Artest, Jackson and Wallace. Jermain O’Neal should not be punished as he was the victim of a felonious assault when the chair was thrown at him. He was simply acting in self defense. Based on what has been done in the past I would think that 10 games for Artest, 15 games for lace w:st="on">Jacksonlace> (he was not provoked like Artest) and 10 game for Wallace for starting the whole thing would be a proper action.
    >>
    Regards,
    >>

  4. #4
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    There's too much to digest right now to properly address everything but I'll talk about the brawl a bit.

    IMHO the Pacers found the one true WRONG way to handle it. TPTB actually found a way to handle it half-assed. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with that. They ended up making it easy for the league to solely steamroll the franchise, and frankly, gave them a good reason to do it (because we weren't doing anything ourselves).

    IMHO TPTB should've been far more active on the PR front.

    As part of that, I believe they should've gotten out in front on the punishments and handed down our own punishments and put some public pressure on Detroit to do likewise and share in the blame. Our punishments should've come before Stern ever set before the mic and announced the league's decision. If anything, TPTB should've been begging and pleading with Stern to allow for the smoke to clear while the press and public disected our own self-imposed penalties (and whatever pressure we could share with Detroit), before making his own official decision and announcement. Buying a couple of days for a cool-down period wouldn't have hurt anyone.

    I'm not saying we should've given Artest 5 games and hoped that was good enough. I'm saying we should've handed out our own very serious penalties... but stopping short of totally gutting the team or even suspending Artest for the season. And with the team enforced suspensions add some anger management and medical interventions. Require Artest to actually meet some goals before his reinstatement.

    MAYBE Stern STILL would've cracked down on the Pacers the way he did.... But IMHO had we taken serious responsibility up front there's at least some chance he doesn't add to the suspensions or if he does, he gets put in a bad PR light by the public and press considering them too draconian or one-sided in light of the Pacers' own upfront and quick handling of the issue.

    But since the Pacers essentially did nothing, they left Stern with a clean slate to work with. ...And we were certainly the best option to take the entire hit. If you can minimize the NBA amd NBA champion's role in this and let the Pacers take the fall, you do it.

    EDIT: I also should add- You don't stop with the PR effort there and then pretend nothing happened. The next step would be cleaning up some of the mess that allowed the situation to brew in the first place and you do that either at the trade deadline or in the offseason. The Pacers did none of that either.
    Last edited by Bball; 07-16-2008 at 04:43 AM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Not to spoil Peck's fun -- by all means, have at your answer searching -- but, personally, I wonder what percentage of fans have out-and-out moved on from the whole thing. And moreover, how long ago did that happen?

    I know I did ... probably at least two years ago. I know what I saw, I know what I read and I know how I felt about it. I just didn't have a desire to punish myself over it.

    Any leftovers we've had since the troubled period ... well, I've known they were on borrowed time. This whole sequence of the past few years have been easy to predict. I couldn't have told you what players and exact results, but the end result seemed inevitable.

    Some answers, though.

    -- Absolutely some of the changes have resulted in a ticket upswing. Basketball didn't suddenly become more popular. You can write it off.

    -- No, the record was not the only reason for last year's attendance. That's silly.

    -- Economy alone? Nope. That's silly, too. There's always a ton of reasons for changes like that.

    -- Artest, Jackson and O'Neal are gone. That's all I need to know. It doesn't seem like it can be that simple. But it can be.

    -- The owners, and by proxy, the GM, aren't always in the business of doing the right thing. There could've been tons of reasons they reacted the way they did to the brawl. No. 1? They hadn't been in that situation before. They're human.

  6. #6
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    I remember the night of the brawl and it just ends up depressing me. For once Ron actually backed away from Wallace and everything was fine, sure Ron laying on the scorer's table was a bit much but enough to get stuff thrown at him? Back then I was willing to defend everyone on that team for any action they took cause it was just chaos and there is no telling what anybody would do given the situation. The night of the media seemed to be blaming both teams equally(IIRC), then down the road ron went even more crazy even wanting to box wallace and then eventually asking for his trade, jackson had his off-court issues along with cussing out rick, tinsley became the bum that he is, and having off-court incidents of his own. While the pistons went on to being a dominant team and have no problems afterwords, which in retrospect made it easy for the media to paint us as the bad guys.

    I think that's what ticked me off the most not the brawl but the fact that the fans stood by the team and then the team made the fans look like idiots for ever defending them. I also think our lack of success mixed with having to see reggie leave without a ring amongst all that was going on with the team jaded a lot of the fans.

    I'm sure as far as fans showing up the economy did have something to do with it as it has all over the country but the way the team has performed/behaved in recent years probably made the decision a little easier.

    I really don't want to forget about these hard times as a pacers fan. I think it will make the good times that are yet to come that much sweeter.

  7. #7
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    A couple of quick points I want to make before I step away.

    1. Remember I am speaking of all of the issues, not just the brawl. Don't let the fact that the second part of my questions focused on the brawl distract from the fact that I am speaking about all of the incidents.

    2. I agree that a large portion of fans have moved on, moved on quite awhile ago and never want to look back. This is just my way of trying to do this as well.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    1. Knowing that ticket sales have already increased can we just write off the fact that the culture of the team has changed and in changing this some of the fans are returning?

    No

    2. Was the win loss % the only reason for last seasons attendance?

    No

    3. Was the economy the only reason for last seasons attendance?

    No

    4. Was a combination of the economy and win/loss % the only reasons for last seasons attendance?

    No

    5. If neither of these or the combination of these was the reason, what other reasons are there?

    Simply the Mrs. and I did not like the Indiana Pacers anymore. As many of you already know we've been going to Pacer games as a married couple since 1980. And after all those years we may have shook our heads in amazement on how bad they were during the Irvine years but we were never ashamed. We still went to the games when they were winning only 20 games.

    This last year we got more enjoyment waiving at Gnome and Hicks in 212 from our seats in 216. And as many know from private conversations we still went to games only because frankly we had the tickets and we couldn't even give them away in the Terre Haute area. We would usually drive to Plainfield and check out Metropolis shopping center for awhile. After the first quarter we would finally head on in to Indy and make it there at the start of the 3rd quarter. Shoot we were still paying the 8 buck parking fee so the economy factor while irritating still did not keep us away.

    You know I can't say we were trying to punish management or make some kind of statement especially since they already had our money. It is just hard for me to think as much as we love the Pacers they were able to make us loathe them that much.

    Back to the sunshine however. That's what was great about this forum party. You could sense it, people were smiling, put away the dour depressed feelings from the last ones because it was obvious there is a new direction and it's ok to put on those blue and gold shirts again (though hell we're diehard Pacer fans and never put them away in the first place


    P.S. On the brawl....Peck my friend I'm over it and have been for awhile. We've always pretty much been on the same page when it comes to Walsh and you know I believe the Donald should have had dirty knees after kissing Larry Brown's butt so much for saving his job.
    Last edited by RWB; 07-16-2008 at 09:34 AM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: A series of questions....

    This is good stuff for a slow off-season.

    1. Knowing that ticket sales have already increased . . . what reasons are there?
    There are as many answers as there are empty seats. A full house at Conseco includes a wide variety of diehards, blowhards, blind followers, lap dogs, casual fans, company seat users, free ticket users, one-time visitors, fans of the visiting team, people who came for the love of basketball, people who came for the love of giant foam fingers and thunder sticks, people who thought Reggie Miller was still on the team, people who came because their child was performing in the pre-game show, etc. There can't be a single answer. And quite honestly the answer of the diehard, multi-year season-ticket holders is no more important to the Pacers bottom line than the answers of those other people.

    I've felt all along that character was vital. I disagreed with Seth and others who said that winning was the only thing that matters. We now have a resurgence of interest in and support for the team during an offseason, without a single additional win. So it becomes clear that character has played a part in that resurgence. I was right. Would the Winning-With-Thugs plan have also succeeded? Maybe. But the answer given by RWB just above mine suggests not. We'll never know.

    The economy does not explain a drop in ticket sales. People were not spending LESS on Pacers games because they couldn't afford it. They were spending their money on DIFFERENT things because the Pacers were unappealing. I want you to understand that the people of Marion County spend over $2 billion a year on amusements. To sell out 41 home games at Conseco (average ticket price $48) would take only about $34 million.

    At most, the Pacers are seeking to capture 1.7% of the recreational spending of Marion County, and the area from which the Pacers draw attendance is actually much larger than Marion County. Isn't it evident that there is plenty of money out there? If the Pacers don't get enough of it, it is their fault, and not the fault of the economy.

    Last point: recreational spending overall dropped in Q2 of this year. It was the first drop in a long time (I can look it up if anyone demands to know). And it was during that decline in recreational spending that interest in and support for the Pacers has begun to rebound. Less total money spent on recreation: more spent on the Pacers, even while they they continue to look like a 35-40 game winner.
    Last edited by Putnam; 07-16-2008 at 09:31 AM.
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  10. #10
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    1. Knowing that ticket sales have already increased can we just write off the fact that the culture of the team has changed and in changing this some of the fans are returning?
    I am just going to briefly (I think) asnwer all your questions. I question if we really know ticket sales are increasing. We have heard tickets were sold at the draft party, and I think we can assume tickets have sold OK since. But one thing to keep in mind is a lot of businesses are cutting back on expenses, and probably Pacers tickets. So maybe while the sale to the general public is going well, sales to companies is probably dropping off. So I guess I'm not expecting tickets sold to be any better that last season. Probably fewer no-shows though

    But to address your question, I think the trade of JO and the realization that Jamaal will follow has fans excited.


    2. Was the win loss % the only reason for last seasons attendance?
    No, it was a big reason though. The amazing thing is how many people think that 36 wins is a horrible -


    3. Was the economy the only reason for last seasons attendance?
    No, it wasn't much of the reason at all. Most tickets are sold before the season starts and the economy wasn't that bad last summer and early fall. Economy will be a bigger factor for this upcoming season.


    4. Was a combination of the economy and win/loss % the only reasons for last seasons attendance?
    No, not at all.


    5. If neither of these or the combination of these was the reason, what other reasons are there?
    The brawl, the overall feeling that the players were thugs and that they weren't very good players either.




    1. Am I wrong to feel that the team (owners and Walsh) never took actual responsibility for the actions of our players?
    Dead wrong


    2. If I am wrong, remember these are about feelings not facts, then was I the only person who felt that way? Or is it possible that a few others out there felt the same way and that this combined with other incidents where the management didn't respond with dissaproval of the players, might have kept a couple of people away?
    I'm sure others believe as you do, but I don't think it is very widespread. But probably more accurately, fans don't think it through quite as far as you - fans know who is on the team and they blame the Pacers for that - whether they take responsibility - doesn't matter too much to most people. But when the players are no longer on the roster people notice that


    3. Was Ron Artest as popular at the fieldhouse as he was online?
    I have heard you and Diamond mention about how unpopular Artest was at the fieldhouse. I never ever saw any indication that he was unpopular. Oh sure some didn't like him - but most fans were big fans of his until he asked to be traded. In fact I think he was more popiular at the fieldhouse than he was online.


    4. Was Steven Jackson unfairly painted by his actions at the brawl?
    No, his actions directly helped esculate things


    5. Was Jermaine O'Neal an innocent vicitim of the brawl?
    No, he didn't start it, but he threw a security guard over the scorers table and rushed in to punch that one fan. In order of Pacers responsible - Artest - Jackson then JO. (I won't get into Pistons or Pistons fans responsibilities.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-16-2008 at 09:26 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: A series of questions....

    1. Knowing that ticket sales have already increased can we just write off the fact that the culture of the team has changed and in changing this some of the fans are returning?
    I think having moved most of the players involved in past issues and bringing in som enew exciting players is helping drive sales. I know I am planning on attending games again this year after skipping the last several.

    2. Was the win loss % the only reason for last seasons attendance?

    no

    3. Was the economy the only reason for last seasons attendance?

    no

    4. Was a combination of the economy and win/loss % the only reasons for last seasons attendance?
    no

    5. If neither of these or the combination of these was the reason, what other reasons are there?
    I tend to think it is a combo of the economy, a bad team, and the lingering effects of many years of player issues that have contributed to this.
    1. Am I wrong to feel that the team (owners and Walsh) never took actual responsibility for the actions of our players?
    No, I agree with you. I think history shows that as the probelms just continued.

    5. Was Jermaine O'Neal an innocent vicitim of the brawl?
    I do kind of feel that way, the little punk he KO'd came on the court in a riot. Jax and Artest earned there suspensions going into the stands, though I kind of understand where Jax was coming from, but I also can see the leagues point, the rest was bogus. The Pistons got off way to light compared to the Pacers, Stern wanted a quick scapegoat and he picked the Pacers.

  12. #12
    Order more copier toner. Haggard's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    I remember the night of the brawl and it just ends up depressing me. For once Ron actually backed away from Wallace and everything was fine, sure Ron laying on the scorer's table was a bit much but enough to get stuff thrown at him? Back then I was willing to defend everyone on that team for any action they took cause it was just chaos and there is no telling what anybody would do given the situation. The night of the media seemed to be blaming both teams equally(IIRC), then down the road ron went even more crazy even wanting to box wallace and then eventually asking for his trade, jackson had his off-court issues along with cussing out rick, tinsley became the bum that he is, and having off-court incidents of his own. While the pistons went on to being a dominant team and have no problems afterwords, which in retrospect made it easy for the media to paint us as the bad guys.
    I think a huge problem with the brawl was that it broadcast internationally live. Living in Australia I never missed a Pacers game when they were broadcast on ESPN. Back then I was lucky enough to get one every couple of weeks. The brawl game happened to be the one they broadcasted live and I can tell you since the brawl there has been 2 games played on our airwaves.
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  13. #13
    dennaB Twes's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    If youíre trying to fill a swimming pool with a garden hose and you realize the hose is full of leaks and all youíre doing is pumping water on the groundÖ

    You shut the freaking hose off. You use the water someplace else.

    You can make the case the collection of guys on the Pacer team that lost control in Detroit were maybe good enough to win it all. But at this point itís clear even if that was true they didnít have the character to do so. Not even close.

    So what. They gambled and it didnít work out and they didnít respond well as an organization.

    It remains to be seen whether they still have the ability to work out of this. Itís not a given. They may suck for the next 30 years.

    People feel good about steps taken but they have a looooooong way to go to get back to what they once enjoyed.

    They need to catch a break with talent. They need the next special player who can get them back and they need smart enough people to keep talent flowing around him to build winning teams. With no murderers.

    If they win people will all be back full force. Fans have never been the problem here.


  14. #14

    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Peck,

    Very well written and on point. If only I could get that same type of thoughtful, literate commentary from callers to the radio program.

    MJB

  15. #15
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    As part of that, I believe they should've gotten out in front on the punishments and handed down our own punishments and put some public pressure on Detroit to do likewise and share in the blame. Our punishments should've come before Stern ever set before the mic and announced the league's decision. If anything, TPTB should've been begging and pleading with Stern to allow for the smoke to clear while the press and public disected our own self-imposed penalties (and whatever pressure we could share with Detroit), before making his own official decision and announcement. Buying a couple of days for a cool-down period wouldn't have hurt anyone.

    I'm not saying we should've given Artest 5 games and hoped that was good enough. I'm saying we should've handed out our own very serious penalties... but stopping short of totally gutting the team or even suspending Artest for the season. And with the team enforced suspensions add some anger management and medical interventions. Require Artest to actually meet some goals before his reinstatement.

    MAYBE Stern STILL would've cracked down on the Pacers the way he did.... But IMHO had we taken serious responsibility up front there's at least some chance he doesn't add to the suspensions or if he does, he gets put in a bad PR light by the public and press considering them too draconian or one-sided in light of the Pacers' own upfront and quick handling of the issue.

    But since the Pacers essentially did nothing, they left Stern with a clean slate to work with. ...And we were certainly the best option to take the entire hit. If you can minimize the NBA amd NBA champion's role in this and let the Pacers take the fall, you do it.
    I think that is far off base. First of all we had no time to do anything. The league essentially suspended everyone involved within a few daylight hours of the brawl. (The brawl took place at around 10:55 PM Friday night - temprorary suspensions were put into place I believe by 1:00 PM Saturday. Stern announced his ruling around 5:30 Sunday - I'll never, ever forget that weekend and where I was when the brawl happened and when the Stern announcement was made. I think it is unrealistic (to say the least) to think if the pacers had suspended polayers it would have changed anything the league did. No, nothing short of suspending the entire franchise would have helped.

  16. #16
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Peck,
    Look at the NFL (Roger Goddell is cracking down on player misconduct)
    What is Stern Doing?

    TPTB have their hands tied, they cannot just cut ties with a player b/c of the guaranteed contracts. Tinsley would be long gone if they could.

    The whole problem is this the NBA Culture vs Hoosier Values. Several of my coworkers compare the NBA to Street Ball. They are in the crowd 40 + & are the one purchasing the lower level seats and they will never embrace the current NBA Culture. If we start to win; they will jump back on the bandwagon but why pay good money to watch a team of "thugs" lose? Is the question this generation asks.

  17. #17
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    I have posted on many occasions that Indianapolis might be a great basketball area, but not a great NBA city. In general people here do not like the NBA. Even a lot of die-hard pacers fans are pacers fans but still they don't like the NBA.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    This is a good idea Peck. This will be, hopefully, my last post concentrating on the brawl. I will answer your other question in full detail at a later time as well, as they give a little bit more to chew on than brawl-related questions.

    1. Am I wrong to feel that the team (owners and Walsh) never took actual responsibility for the actions of our players?

    I think the way that this question is framed puts the brawl in the wrong context. From what I remember fans were not outraged right after the brawl occurred. In fact, they laid much more blame on Ben Wallace, John Greene, and the lack of security at the game than they did on Ron Artest or any of the former (that feels good to say) Pacers involved. I went to a Pacers-Timberwolves game around Thanksgiving that year and the Fieldhouse was packed and everyone was rallying around our reserve players. The brawl did not become a sticking point for fans until after some of the off-court incidents began happening. Only then, did anyone look back at the brawl and say "they are a bunch of thugs for doing that." People did not get offended until the incidents in Indianapolis, rather than Detroit, started to occur.

    And I think that letter TPTB issued after the brawl was sufficient. What else are you gonna do, really, to take responsibility for it?

    2. If I am wrong, remember these are about feelings not facts, then was I the only person who felt that way? Or is it possible that a few others out there felt the same way and that this combined with other incidents where the management didn't respond with dissaproval of the players, might have kept a couple of people away?

    I think it is arguable concerning who was responsible for the brawl and there wasn't much more the team could do to those players after Stern's suspensions anyway. But yes, there is no doubt who was at fault during the other off court incidents: the players involved! Absolutely TPTB should have taken more action when those incidents happened. They ended up taking appropriate action by trading Stephen Jackson but that took a bit of time. But after the brawl happened should they have done something else? No.

    3. Was Ron Artest as popular at the fieldhouse as he was online?

    No idea.

    4. Was Steven Jackson unfairly painted by his actions at the brawl?

    No. Ben Wallace and John Greene were at fault for starting the brawl, but Stephen Jackson is at fault for taking it to a whole other level. No one provoked him to go into the stands like with Artest. The whole scuffle that led to Artest laying down on the table thing may not have never happened on the level it did if Jackson wasn't stomping around ripping out his jersey and cussing at Pistons players and pissing them off. If he really wanted to help his team in that situation he would have led Artest toward the bench rather than provoking Pistons players and as a result of that, provoking the fans too.

    5. Was Jermaine O'Neal an innocent vicitim of the brawl?

    I think that he was. Look, if you're a famous professional athlete in a situation like that and someone threatens you, what else are you supposed to do? That guy could have had a knife or a gun. It's not like JO started stomping on the guy after he hit him or anything. He had to lay that guy out though because for all JO knew that guy was going to come after him with a switchblade. To say JO did anything wrong in the brawl is ridiculous.

    ---

    The brawl was a very ugly situation and I try to forget about it in terms of what it did to our team but I will never forget about it in regards to how much it has made me hate the Pistons and Ben Wallace. I tried rooting for the Pistons during the ECF this year but after seeing the brawl again I realize now I hope that franchise never wins anything again, gets stuck with the 10th pick of the draft every year, and eventually moves to Las Vegas. Screw those guys. It hurts bad to see that franchise succeeding after the brawl while it set our franchise back so far. To me, a loss to the obviously much more talented Pistons even in the regular season hurts more than any Colts NFL playoff loss to the Pats.
    Last edited by idioteque; 07-16-2008 at 10:44 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Peck makes me so angry.

    Obviously we needed a change and we got the change. I'm truly thrilled that Indy seems to like the Pacers again.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  20. #20
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Don't forget to blame the refs. And also keep in mind that the NBA changed the way they instruct their refs to handle situations like that. Just wish Joey Crawford had been working that game - he would have taken control of the situation and none of it would have happened. Sad really

  21. #21
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Watching the brawl again (ugh) I forgot how big of a role Ben Wallace really played. After shoving Artest that hard you still have to go after him even more and start the whole scuffle between both teams? Really?

    I've never been able to stand Ben Wallace after the brawl but I didn't realize what he did was so blatant because I haven't watched the video in over a year. I don't want him to die or be crippled or anything, but if he landed badly on his knee and was never able to play again, I wouldn't care either and would feel a bit vindicated.

    Instead slapping Tinsley in the face like a *****, Rasheed should have been more of a peacemaker too. The way he was acting in that scuffle pissed the Pacers off even ore.

    And it's a shame I have to hate that franchise because I like Billups, Hamilton, and Tayshaun as individual players.
    Last edited by idioteque; 07-16-2008 at 10:58 AM.

  22. #22
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    I wasn't here during the brawl, so I missed the initial debates...

    But, for me, the most confusing part of PD has always been the people that feel that Ron Artest was unfairly punished for the Brawl. I've watched that video literally at least 100 times and the notion that he deserved anything less than the rest of the season has never crossed my mind.

    Yep, the I remember my initial reaction being..."WHAT THE ****!?!?!"

    It sucked. Bad. But much like the Jerryd Bayless incident, after I gave it 24 hours it made complete sense. (And, yes, the initial games give to JO may have been a little high, but he only served 15 games after appeal -- and he did sprint across the court just to cold-**** a 5'11" guy -- and Jack definitely deserved 25 for his role for repeatedly punching fans in the face.)

    Blame crappy security, blame punk-*** Piston fans, blame whoever you want...But that wasn't an Indiana/Detroit fight, it was a fight between Indiana Pacer players and fans. And it was started by Ron Artest, accelerated by Stephen Jackson and voluntarily participated in twice by Jermaine O'Neal.
    And that's the truth. I just think that Ron should have been reinstated for the playoffs and Wallace should have been given more games.

  23. #23
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Sorry...you quoted that right as I was trying to delete it. But I didn't want to change the thread into that debate.

    Carry on.
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    For me:

    Started by Ben Wallace, accelerated by Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson, and accelerated again by John Greene, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson.

    Really there are so many people blame that you can't blame one side fully. But the Pacers were the only team that was punished.

    There was no precedent to suspending Ron for the whole season when you look at the Vernon Maxwell incident. He should have at least been reinstated for the playoffs.

    And Ben Wallace should have gotten the same 15 games as JO.

    Ok, I'll shut up now and start thinking about Peck's other questions.

  25. #25
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: A series of questions....

    Agree to disagree.
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