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Thread: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Last week I gave you guys three options, of which trading Al seemed to be the most popular.

    Let me take another swing at this with option # 4 & see if anybody would accept this.

    It's simple really & once again does not require us to trade anybody. This one is just another matter of player adjustments, but would required a differant mind set where it came to Reggie.

    Put Reggie on the bench, move Ron to shooting guard & start Al at the S.F. spot.

    This allows Al to start which will make him happy. This will allow Ron to remain on the team which will make Uncle Buck happy. This allows the frontcourt to not be to small by benching Jeff Foster. This allows our defense to remain intact as Al & Ron can switch who guards who just as well if not better than Reggie & Ron did.

    I know I know your all going to say that this does nothing to help with our outside shooting.

    To a point I will concede that. However my theory is this, with Al all you are going to be able to get is a mid-level player who might develop into something. Flip Murray or somebody like him & everybody didn't like my Flip Murray idea anyway.

    So I ask this, is the two guard we are getting going to be a better two guard than Ron Artest? My guess would be no. I know that people will say that Ron is really a better S.f. but I say that there is almost no differance between the sf & the sg spot on the floor & defensively Ron is going to take the better player anyway.

    Reggie would still be there to come off of the bench for perimater offense as well as Bender, A.J. & Croshere.

    This makes our starting lineup a better rebounding club & if Bender is even close to being ready to help he can take Al's offense with the second unit, not to mention Reggie.

    I'm just not sure that we are going to get from Al what we need, or at the very least nothing that isn't any better that what we already have on our team.

    Ok, tear it apart now.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Forgive me beforehand for bringing some Isiah logic into this thread. rayer:

    How bad does it matter that Ron is labeled as a SG, and strictly a SG? Ron can play the SF and the SG, Al can play the SF and the PF, JO can play the PF and the C, and Jeff can play the C and the PF. It's all interchangable, so the thing is, how important is it that we need a "SG"? As long as the guy fits the needs of the team, does it really matter what the position he plays is, as long as it's an exceptional outside shooter who can either create his own shot or spread the defenses?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    edit: I wrote this before I read your post Peck. I think we were kind of thinking along the same lines regarding Ron Artest, and if we were, I agree with that.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    We need a player who strikes fear into the hearts of opponents with his perimeter shooting. We need someone who can consistently draw players out of the paint to open up the middle for Jermaine (and Ron). Would Ron accomplish that? I don't know. But I don't think so. Again, I submit game 4 and how Croshere's performance spread the floor as evidence.

    By the way, I think we can do better than Flip Murray for Al and change.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    By the way, I think we can do better than Flip Murray for Al and change.
    I agree with that. Didn't he sort of cool off the second half of the season? He only scored 12.4 a game anyway; not much better than Reggie's 10.

    edit: Besides, his 3P% is horrific. (29%)

  5. #5
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Oh, don't get me wrong guys. If I thought we could get that solid dead eye outside shooter for Al I would do it.

    But, I think the kind of player you could get in return is really a crap shoot.

    Artest would get you a sure thing & if things are going on behind the scenes (which I suspect they are) then that might happen. But for Al I'm not sure who you could get that would be that solid outside shooter that would be better than either Al or Ron.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  6. #6

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Let me ask you something, Peck?

    Are you of the mindset that we should stand pat in the off-season? Or are you at least entertaining the thought?

    I can understand this thinking to some degree. We're still a young team. I'd hate to lose either Al or Ron as well because you can see the potential there. Plus Freddie is showing signs of becoming a real contributor. It certainly begs the question: Do we risk the possibility of breaking this team up prematurely, before it's reached its full potential?

    On the other hand...

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    IMPD Officer MarionDeputy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    I like your idea, but only if we can't negotiate a trade to either give us a big, scoring, center, or an outside rifleman. If we don't though, I believe Reggie would be most effective coming off the bench.
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

  8. #8

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    I can understand this thinking to some degree. We're still a young team. I'd hate to lose either Al and Ron as well because you can see the long-term potential there and what each player means to the team. Plus Freddie is showing signs of becoming a real contributor. It certainly begs the question: Do we risk the possibility of breaking this team up prematurely, before it's reached its true potential?
    I like the idea. If things aren't going right and/or Al is complaining, we could trade him by the deadline. Just see how things go I guess. Then again, I don't think Larry will go into the season without giving the fans some confidence that next season will turn out different.

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    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    I can't say I like it at all : Standing pat is the worst thing we can do at this point .

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    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    I have to say that I agree with Peck - there is no way we get value for Al given his salary level and a draft pick is not attrative to me.

    We could get a solid 2 with the mid level exemption - probably every bit as good as a flip murray or whatever we would get.

    And trading Al for a Center - well that just rubs salt in the Brad Miller wound.

    This is an attractive team for a free agent. If the Knicks can dream of Rasheed for the mid level exemption - tell me - why can't we get a 2 guard for the same. And while it did not work out - Gary Payton and Malone whored themselves out for a combined $6.4 million this year for a shot at a championship. Tell me we could not get a quality 2? I think we could do well in free agency. Does anyone have a list of available 2's?
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  11. #11
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Let me ask you something, Peck?

    Are you of the mindset that we should stand pat in the off-season? Or are you at least entertaining the thought?

    I can understand this thinking to some degree. We're still a young team. I'd hate to lose either Al or Ron as well because you can see the potential there. Plus Freddie is showing signs of becoming a real contributor. It certainly begs the question: Do we risk the possibility of breaking this team up prematurely, before it's reached its full potential?

    On the other hand...
    No, not whatsoever. I am not of the mind to stand pat.

    But I don't want to just give away Al for peanuts either.

    Of course both you & I are aware that the trade may NOT be for Al.

    I guess what I am trying to do is get people to thinking about not just getting rid of Al. BTW, I'm not Al's biggest fan either. It's just that I think that we have to wonder what we get in return.

    Jason Richardson? He's a great scorer but not a great shooter. So in reality is he any better than Ron in the backcourt? I don't think so.

    I just use him as an example.

    I guess what I'm saying is I can see an argument for either side. In the past I've always been for a trade & I still wouldn't mind one this season either. But if nothing happens then I would much rather see this happen than to come back with the same old lineup next year.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  12. #12
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Peck, I guess I like this idea better than making a bad trade involving Al.

    Rick Carlisle played this lineup a few minutes every game, but only for a few minutes. Usually AL would come in for Reggie at the 6 minute mark of the 1st and 3rd quarters. But usually by the 4 minute mark Freddie and AJ were in.

    So they played this lineup about 4 or 5 minutes per game.

    My point is Rick did try it, but he never used it at crunch time. Rick's offense is based on floor spacing, that is his "big thing", and I just don't see him going to it very often for that reason.

  13. #13
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Floor spacing is important, especially at crunch time.

    Remember I'm just talking about starting here, not who plays the most or when they play.

    At crunch time I would suspect that Jeff or Al would be on the bench & either Fred, Reggie or maybe even Crosher or Bender might be in.

    But do you at least see that this may solve Al's problem of wanting to start?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    At the core of Peck's post - can we get equal value for Al.

    All the rumors I have heard so far tell me no.

    I would be happy to trade him - but not for someone who is no better than someone we could get for the mid level exemption.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    But do you at least see that this may solve Al's problem of wanting to start?

    Yes I can see that, but if AL is on the bench in the last 5 minutes of close games, he won't be satisfied about that either

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Well, as someone pointed out, there might be some merit to just standing pat, then make a move at the trade deadline (ala Sheed), if necessary. But given our glaring weakness at SG, that seems to be a conservative approach. Although I have to say, Peck, I think we can get more for Al than you do.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    The other thing is that the lineups vary so much through the course of the game.

    Anytime Foster goes out, the lineup essentially becomes PG, SG, Ron, Al, O'Neal.

    Or if O'Neal goes out, it becomes, PG, SG, Ron, Al, C

    Ron would not have to play a lot of SG, just 10 minutes a game. Fred could play a little PG. JB could play some more PF. The lineup is still unbalanced but it could still work.

    The other thing is that Harrington already gets 30 minutes a game. I'm sure if he got to start and if he could get another 5 minutes from somewhere (read: Reggie) he would probably be fine with staying.

    So I don't mind this option at all. LB/DW will try to trade and do something like this as a fallback

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Not to be nitpicky, but could we keep calling Freddie Jones, "Freddie"? Everytime I see someone refer to "Fred," I think of Fred Hoiberg and I keep wondering how he got back on our team.

  19. #19
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    I don't think we should be thinking of trading Al by himself. We need to think of a package. Although Pollard sucks, his size and the spin that he just didn't fit our 'system' could help him fit into a package with Al.

    Bender did have some nice highlights and I am pretty sure his lowlights didn't get natl attention. A Bender and Al package might also work.

    Did Cro move up anybody's list (I doubt it)?

    I think Bender and Al makes the most likely package. I think we are stuck with Pollard.

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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    I guess what I'm saying is I can see an argument for either side. In the past I've always been for a trade & I still wouldn't mind one this season either. But if nothing happens then I would much rather see this happen than to come back with the same old lineup next year.
    =======

    OK, now I'm with you. I have always been an AH fan...but no longer. I prefer he's gone. But...<insert above Peck comment here> AL needs a new home. We need more scoring and more muscle. It takes quality to get quality. Remember too...we have a trade exemption we can add to Al to get back a player with higher salary. But we have to do it quick or the exemption expires. (Although, DW likes to be the endpoint for those exemptions rather than a passer-on).

    I guess what bothers me is I see Al and JO's game being too similar to work together for extended minutes.
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    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    I doubt if you'll see no moves and since it's already been said that the roster is unbalanced , I expect atleast 1 -2 trades.

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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Yes but last year they said they wanted a creator/penetrator...when did we get that?
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

  23. #23

    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Yes but last year they said they wanted a creator/penetrator...when did we get that?
    In the 2002 draft.

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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Oh Please...no.
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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, time for my second go round about trades or lacktherof....

    Peck, I guess I like this idea better than making a bad trade involving Al.

    Rick Carlisle played this lineup a few minutes every game, but only for a few minutes. Usually AL would come in for Reggie at the 6 minute mark of the 1st and 3rd quarters. But usually by the 4 minute mark Freddie and AJ were in.

    So they played this lineup about 4 or 5 minutes per game.

    My point is Rick did try it, but he never used it at crunch time. Rick's offense is based on floor spacing, that is his "big thing", and I just don't see him going to it very often for that reason.
    Not to nitpick, but Al usually entered the game for Foster at the six-minute mark, not Reggie. I didn't see this particular lineup on the court very often, and not at all for the handful of games where I tracked five-man plus/minus.
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