Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 55

Thread: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

  1. #1

    Default A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Good afternoon, and Happy 4th of July to you all!

    Today I want to write about our Pacers new direction, and some potential problems and conflicts that are looming on the horizon I believe between our Pacers front office and our current head coach. Looking closely, I can see storm clouds starting to gather.....particularly when you look at the specifics of the draft moves we made on June 26th.

    The debate will rage on forever in the minds of Pacer fans whether trading Jerryd Bayless for the package including Brandon Rush and Jarrett Jack was a wise course of action or not. Some say it was a bad idea to pass on a player with the potential all star abilities of Bayless to instead take the "safer" pick of Brandon Rush, a player who is likely more mature and ready to play from "day one", as a certain ex Presidential candidate was fond of saying. Others believe that the Pacers made the right choice, taking a player that more closely resembles a more traditional player to fit a specific role....a player easier to "fit" into an entire team structure of play. In effect taking a player very sure to be "good" over a player with a 50/50 chance of being great or a bust. Arguments can be made either way, and in reality there is no right or wrong answer......it simply depends on too many other factors yet to be determined.

    In selecting Rush, the Pacers selected a player who I projected in my draft profile of him to be a likely all first team NBA rookie team player next year. Rush has excellent specific skills, appropriate size for his position, and seems like a man very ready emotionally and maturity wise for his leap into the NBA. Most people agree with that analysis, as Rush was a popular player before the draft among many NBA analysts as a draftee likely to help his team immediately next season.

    In Rush, the Pacers took a player to pair along with Roy Hibbert whom they drafted at #17. Hibbert and Rush were in many ways made to play with each other. Hibbert, and excellent passer and very good screener, playing with Rush, a fine player coming off screens who can catch and shoot as well as any player available. Defensively, Hibbert can hold his own inside with his great size and strength, and Rush's awesome lateral quickness and defensive skill one on one will somewhat eliminate the need for Hibbert to be asked to help as much on the perimeter. These 2 players GO TOGETHER well, and it is clear that Larry Bird recognized that, and orchestrated his draft night and overall offseason plan to find players who both "fit" and "compliment" the long term vision and roster plan he has for our franchise. Rightly or wrongly, the Pacers front office can no longer be accused of not having a clear plan or direction. By selecting these 2 specific players to fill the roles they seemed destined to fill, the Pacers seem to clearly be building a more defensive oriented, half court playing, "set position" roster. Players who are "athletic" hybrids who can play multiple positions and do a variety of things seem to be now a thing of the past, having been taking out of Conseco Fieldhouse with the moving vans that escorted Donnie Walsh out of the building.

    However, I also wrote in my draft thread about Brandon Rush that, as high on him as I was and as potentially good as I thought he might become, that he was a bad fit for our team because I didnt think he was a good fir for the offensive system that Jim O'Brien runs. Because of that, I was fairly certain that the Pacers should and would pass on Rush on draft night. I was wrong about the Pacers not selecting Rush, but I don't think I was wrong about him not really having the type of skill set that Jim O'Brien could use in the most efficient way. I am positive that Larry Bird knows that a "catch and shoot", fine individual defender in Rush, and a slower center who isn't a great offensive post up threat to score in Hibbert, isnt exactly the prototype Jim O'Brien has in mind for those positions in his system, yet he chose them anyway. What does that tell us?

    I think the moves we are making since Larry Bird officially took over can tell us many things, some obvious and some not, about where this franchise has been in the past, and where it is going in the future. Trying to be a fortune teller for the next few years, and trying to recreate past events with a lack of information are both difficult tasks, but I think if we read between the lines we can logically come up with a list of conclusions:

    1. I no longer believe SHAWNE WILLIAMS was truly Larry Bird's guy in the draft a few years ago.....that move has Donnie Walsh written all over it. Bird seems to value guys who are mature, established in their positions, who can help right away. Williams was the exact opposite of that prototype. However, he fits the Walsh type of player, (especially as Donnie grew older) a player who can play multiple spots with a large amount of "upside". Bird was forced to explain that pick on national TV, and to our fanbase, but my thought is looking back he did as he was told to do and nothing else.

    2. We were told that Larry Bird hand picked Jim O'Brien as our coach last year after only discussing it on the TELEPHONE. Everyone one of us bought that story hook, line, and sinker.....but does it really make sense now that it happened that way? Larry Bird has a vision of building an old fashioned team in a conventional way, and yet hires a very unconventional coach with some radical ideas of how to play offense? In his first draft, Bird selects 2 players who seem to be fine prospects and ready made to help immediately, except he takes guys who really don't fit the way this coach plays the game from a strategic standpoint? That doesnt make sense to me either.

    I think it might be more likely that Walsh wanted Jim O'Brien, and either forced Larry to hire him or talked him into it gently. Perhaps the phone call between Bird and O'Brien that led to his hiring was more of Bird just getting to know him a little, before throwing his hands up and telling Donnie that he'd go along with his wishes one more time. Remember, Walsh is the same guy who made unconventional coaching hires in the past quite often.....Dick Versace, George Irvine, Bob Hill, an older Jack Ramsey, the risky Larry Brown, Isiah Thomas.....even Larry Bird himself at one time.

    3. Bringing back Al Harrington. We were told at the time that Bird wanted Harrington back to pair with Jermaine O'Neal. Does it sound like a Lary Bird move to you in retrospect? Bringing back an undersized "hybrid" forward with a questionable attitude but lots of skill.......doesn't that sound more like Donnie Walsh, especially when you look back at it through the lens of history?



    Ok, so now here we are, in the summer of 2008. The Pacers have a vision, and a clear idea and plan moving forward. The Pacer franchise all seems to be singing from the same songsheet in their public pronouncements.....but does it make sense in reality, espcially when it comes to Jim O'Brien? What does this mean for the future?

    Look at it logically:

    1. Rush is a superior shooter coming off screens along the baseline, and Hibbert was one of the best screen setters in the draft. But, our head coach prefers spacing and one on one play off the dribble instead of setting multiple screens for shooters.

    2. Our head coach likes a 4 out 1 in system for offense, which requires players who can play multiple positions and also requires a true low post scorer. Yet, the Pacers pass on a multiple position "hybrid" guard in Bayless. The Pacers pick a slower "true center" in Hibbert whose strength as a player is not being a legitimate post scorer, and pass on picking a kid like Darrell Arthur, who could be a perfect "3/4" combination forward in the O'Brien scheme.

    3. Our head coach has a defensive scheme that requires his "bigs" to be mobile in hedging screen/roll situations and to rotate more than most teams demand, requiring quickness and flexibility. Instead, we draft Roy Hibbert, who will be a fine NBA center but certainly doesn't have those particular skills.

    In summary, Bird has acquired players who compliment each other perfectly (Ford/Jack and Rush/Hibbert), but who do not fit in with the coaching strengths of Jim O'Brien, at least as I see it now. All this talk about everybody being on the same page left out one ingredient: the actual head coach!

    So far, Jim O'Brien has by all counts played the good soldier, and I assume that he will continue to do so. But his bosses have made it clear that these players are all expected to help immediately this season, in spite of the fact that they don't "fit in" as well as everyone has been led to believe. Combine that with the fact that Jerryd Bayless fell into an IDEAL spot for his talents in Portland, and the pressure on Jim O'Brien to succeed immediately will be ramped up to almost impossible levels come December 2008.

    The problem for us is that Jim O'Brien has never shown any ability to adapt his style at all. He is a "true believer" in what he is teaching, and would likely play the same way regardless of the personnel he has. That stubbornness and dogged confidence to teach the game as he sees it purely is both his strength and weakness as an NBA coach.

    Like every rebuilding job, there is often some snags along the way. I think it is obvious that our head coach and our front office do not see the game and building a team the same way, regardless of any public pronouncements to the contrary. A big question mark in all of this is will the Simons allow Bird to fire O'Brien, considering he is owed quite a bit of cash, if we get off to a slow start? If not, there will likely be a lot of drama still going on in downtown Indianapolis this winter, and the summertime optimism we all feel right now will be down the drain, lost to competing and contradicting visions of the game by 2 head strong men.

    I see no way this ends well for Jim O'Brien's tenure as head coach.....the only question is how it all plays out leading up to his ouster, which is sure to happen now I believe. The question only is : "What will the lack of cohesion between our coaching staff and front office cost us as fans and as a franchise?"

    It is this disconnect I see that has the storm clouds looming this season, and has me worried that next few months arent going to be as positive and productive as we all hope.


    As always, the above is just my opinion.

    Tbird

  2. #2
    Member Noodle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    I'll try to keep this short and sweet. Job plays the pick and roll a ton for players to get shots. Don't know what you are talking about. JOb's offense is what I call structured freelance, it involves many styles. The players we had last year dictated the way we played. Last year this team was so bad defensively that we wouldn't be caught dead playing half court basketball. At times last year we tried slowing it down a bit and got smoked every time. I've said many times since the draft, we are trying to become a versatile team. We will be able slow it down at times with perimeter defenders in Rush and Jack. Post defenders in Foster and Hibbert. When I watch Pacer's games I see much knowledge in the way JOb coaches the game, he will adjust. Many seem to think this guy doesn't have a clue, I guess that is why he's coaching and were posting.

  3. #3
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Broadripple
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,253

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    It seems like Hibbert could fill the Post Presence role quite well for JOB. With his size and offensive skills, he should be able to draw a double team in most situations, and his passing is superb.

    I don't know really I guess. Have to see how it all plays out.

    To really examine this, I think you have to look at how he coached his former teams. Was the offensive system he ran in Boston identical to the one he ran last year? We all know he likes the three pointer, but as far as pick and roll offense, or whether to play up-tempo or halfcourt? How did Boston run things.

    I know JOB loved paul pierce, and I have heard that Rush has a similar game, so I am not sure how he will be a bad fit.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 07-04-2008 at 01:22 PM.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

    - ilive4sports

  4. #4
    Member Taterhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,288

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    I don't know if I buy this idea that Donnie was still making all the decisions. I think the O'brien hiring was an attempt to bring fans back with a more up tempo run and gun style of play.

    As far as Rush, he can play 2 positions. I think they view a Granger-Dunleavy-Rush trio on the wing provides them with 3 players who are interchangable on the wing. He can also shoot the three which we all know O'brien loves. So I think he actually fits that mold. Hibbert is, IMO, a desperate attempt to give them a half court defensive presence since we dealt our only one away . I mean of all the big guys available at the time of our pick, none had much defensive potential, except maybe Hibbert. Sure Hibbert has other skills, however, Bird spoke of his defensive ability before the draft. And I think they hope Hibbert can develop into a good rebounder and use his passing ability to ignite the break ala Kevin Love, plus give them a descent low post option in half court and a big defender to protect the basket. So in a lot of ways, I think they think, Hibbert could develop into the perfect center for the system. They don't need a center to run as much as provide them with a focal point to run offense through when the game gets slowed down to a crawl in the playoffs.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    4,621

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    So T-bird, in short I think you're saying that Bird might be looking to replace the coach after 3 years.

    Bird did mention that O'Brien was the right coach for "this team" when he was hired. Bird is now in a position to change the team to his liking, more than likely that would require a coach to change his system or a new coach.

    My guess is we get a new coach. These things tend to happen from time to time in the NBA. I don't view it as a major problem, just the team evolving into a contender again.

  6. #6

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    TBird,
    Good post. As always.

    A few things to consider w/ the Bird/O'Brien/Player dynamic.

    -Consider what Bird said he wanted to do when he was coaching the team. He said he wanted to increase the tempo and get out in transition. He wanted play a style of ball that was more prevalent in the 80s. He didn't do it around 98 as much as he said he would, but I think that's because of the age of our roster then and that he was hesitant to tinker too much considering we were one of the top 4 teams in the league. O'Brien certainly coaches an unconventional offensive style for today, but when you look at the tempo we played at last year, it definitely had the markings of a 1980s-style transition/shoot the open mid-range/perimter shot ballclub.

    -Consider the needs of the system vs. the patience and maturity required to play for O'Brien. JOB doesn't take crap from players. He's a no nonsense kind of guy. Bayless fits his system better as a player, but I'm not so sure that isn't overshadowed by the fact that Rush fits the system better from an attitude standpoint. If the Pacers determined that Bayless didn't have the maturity to buy into the system, what was the use of having him on the roster?

    -Consider what Bird said about the tenure of coaches and how players tend to tune guys out after 3 years or so. I don't think O'Brien will be around in 4 years, because I think Bird will replace him after 3 to 4 full seasons. O'Brien seems like a guy who would understand this. From his standpoint, if he knew Bayless wouldn't have the maturity to fit the system until JOB was on his way out, would O'Brien want him or need him?

    -Hibbert isn't the ideal fit at a big man, and I 100% agree that he doesn't fit the system to a T. I think the pick here was made more with a general need in mind rather than a system need. Keep in mind however that the first thing out of Bird's mouth was that they ran him through pick and roll tests and were satisfied with his ability to defend the play adequately. It was pretty clear we needed some bodies inside, and I can't remember the last time a guy of his size, experience, and skill set fell to 17. Consider the mid-80s Celtics as Bird's idea of a model. It's pretty clear that we aren't even approaching their talent level, but they got out in transition with certain players playing certain roles. Neither Parish nor McHale were the most mobile guys by this time, but they were better than average passers with soft hands and post moves. Hibbert is by no means even a poor man's McHale when it comes to post moves, but he fits the bill as well as anyone available at 17 in this draft. If we could pull a trade for a better fit using a combination of picks and players, I think we would have. We just have the necessary trade bait at this point.

    The end result of all of this is some compromise between O'Brien's style and the team on the court, but from a career standpoint, I think O'Brien is on board. Last year O'Brien's hands were tied. This year, we will improve, but still get another good pick in the draft while continuing to weed out the bad apples. By O'Brien's fourth (and probably final) season, I can see us being a pretty solid 4 to 6 seed in the East, O'Brien and the Pacers parting ways, and O'Brien parlaying his improved coaching stock into another gig.

  7. #7
    Member PR07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,959

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    I don't see O'Brien as the coach to take us to the next level anyways. He's more of a transition coach that Bird hired because he's a veteran and has the schemes to win more games than he should with a young roster. An uptempo system can exploit the average young team's strength's: speed, athleticism, while it can sometimes hide their weaknesses, like lack of defensive saavy. Also, in the regular season, you can get a lot of teams to play to your style when you go uptempo, which can help win more games. In the playoffs, this typically doesn't happen.

    Bird said he doesn't like a coach to stay past like 4 years anyways, so I don't see O'Brien sticking around when this thing starts getting really good.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    I never thought O'Brien was going to be a long term solution as our head coach.

    I don't know if I quite buy into the theories your laying out but I do beleive Bird is not going to let his current coaches system dictate how he builds the team.

  9. #9

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    You are correct with our draft picks not neccesarily being optimal for J'Obs offense. They seem like they would do very well under Rick, especially the late 90s offense that he had.

    But, let's not forget TJ Ford, who is absolutely perfect for J'OBs offense.

    I think it is smart not to pick players based on the coach or even based on building around another player (JO). It is good to leave your team the ability to play multiple styles.

  10. #10
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,609

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Wow...interesting read if not speculation. I will have to digest this for awhile.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  11. #11
    Member indyman37's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    906

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    I say Bird pulls double duty. He should remain president of basketball operations and become our head coach.

  12. #12

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Good afternoon, and Happy 4th of July to you all!

    Today I want to write about our Pacers new direction, and some potential problems and conflicts that are looming on the horizon I believe between our Pacers front office and our current head coach. Looking closely, I can see storm clouds starting to gather.....particularly when you look at the specifics of the draft moves we made on June 26th.


    Tbird
    I disagree and here is why.

    1. I believe the hiring of JOB was not only to entice fans back but a Bird type of coach. What I mean by that is that JOB is not a Rick Charisle who took crap from players. Bird in my eyes wanted a discplinarian.

    2. I am not even going to try to agrue with you on bball formations but I will say that JOB has taken nonathletic and not very diverse players to new heights. The player I have in mind is M. Dun who in my opinion is not ideal for JOBS system. Rush's limitations are similar to M. Dunleavys in my eyes. He can't create and he is a limited ballhandler. JOB has shown that he can work with less than ideal players and be successful.

    3. You might be right that JOB time is limited but I doubt it will be a nasty storm between the two. The Pacers basically resurrected JOB's career and he in turn gave the pacers some much needed accountability. My question is this. Who is availiable that would do a better job in your opinion.

    Finally JOB won't be let go if we make the playoffs next year and atleast show promise. Given what happened this season I believe he can take T.Ford, M. Dun. Granger, Nesto,
    Murphy and our bench to the playoffs.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 07-04-2008 at 03:30 PM.

  13. #13
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Coliseum
    Posts
    6,248

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoPacer View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Consider the mid-80s Celtics as Bird's idea of a model. It's pretty clear that we aren't even approaching their talent level, but they got out in transition with certain players playing certain roles. Neither Parish nor McHale were the most mobile guys by this time, but they were better than average passers with soft hands and post moves. Hibbert is by no means even a poor man's McHale when it comes to post moves, but he fits the bill as well as anyone available at 17 in this draft. If we could pull a trade for a better fit using a combination of picks and players, I think we would have. We just have the necessary trade bait at this point.
    This exactly what I was talking about on another thread. Bird has the "Boston puzzle or Boston equation" on his mind. There is no doubt in my mind this is the formula he is going to utilize in building HIS team. Of course he's not going to get McHale or Parrish type pieces right off the bat but I think he is lokking at the attributes of each position when he was playing and taking the best available player to fill those spots. It will take some time and some fine tuning but he knows what he wants. If the coach wants to go along with it - fine. But I truly think he knows how to build a championship team and has been handcuffed.

    As far as JOB. I wasn't crazy about the hire. I think we settled on a lower tier candidate who was willing to take the job. We weren't going to get anyone more high profile.

    I'm looking forward to this playing out because I think I understand the vision and that vision will take a little patience. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
    Last edited by ABADays; 07-04-2008 at 10:33 PM.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  14. #14
    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Age
    28
    Posts
    17,396

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Never liked JO'B as a coach, won't be upset to see him leave.

  15. #15
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,738

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Hmm... only breezed through this; will come back in a bit and do a more thorough reading.

    But part of what you said, if I'm remembering correctly, was that Rush wouldn't be a good fit next to Tinsley. You said he'd be best next to a quick slashing PG. That sounds a lot like TJ Ford.

    Am I wrong about this?
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  16. #16
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Like many others here, I have always believed that there was some planned obsolescence in Obie's career here. In the transition period, he would put a more entertaining product on the floor and bring some discipline to the locker room. However, the system itself had limitations that we've all discussed ad nauseum.

    For those reasons, I agree with your position that we are starting to see the moves that will eventually (next summer or the summer after) lead to us parting ways with Jim O'Brien. I'm not entirely convinced it will be a stormy divorce, but I do think Jim's shelf life will not exceed two more seasons here.

    I also disagree to varying degrees about the decisions you attribute to Walsh vs. Bird. I think Walsh may have carried a heavy influence, but I still think it's possible, if not likely, that Williams and O'Brien were Bird's decisions. The results with Williams (and, by extension, James White) may have left Bird with a sour taste in his mouth, moving him back to a more traditional model for franchise building. (Plus, I think the moves over the last couple of weeks have caused me for the first time to believe that Bird may have had a significant hand in the Golden State deal, as well.)

    Disagreements or no, this, as with all of your stuff, has been a fantastic, informative, and thought provoking read. Love to see you put up new stuff. Thanks for putting in the time and care.

  17. #17
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northside Bias
    Posts
    12,960

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Tbird, not you too?

    I'm waiting for someone to say that Larry Bird didn't really smoke weed with John Mellencamp, it was Donnie Walsh all along.

    Seriously, Larry Bird couldn't have possibly looked at Al, JB, JO, Jamaal, Ron, David, Jack, Quis, and Shawne and thought maybe possibly the organization would be better served drafting more mature players. It makes much more sense that Donnie had his hand up Larry's puppet *** for five years controlling his every move and telling him exactly what to say. Because Mr. "No-nonsense call it like I see it" certainly wouldn't have a problem with that. No sir.


    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  18. #18
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northside Bias
    Posts
    12,960

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This exactly what I was talking about on another thread. Bird has the "Boston puzzle or Boston equation" on his mind. There is no doubt this is the formula he is going to utilize in building HIS team.
    Larry Bird would be the first to tell you that TJ Ford is no Dennis Johnson.

    I think he would also be the first to say that you can't replicate that Celtics team. That team was built on incredible talent, 1-12, and structure was secondary.

    Even if that were possible, I'd like to think there's more to Larry than that. While Phil Jackson learned lessons about team chemistry from Red Holtzman, he certainly has not gravitated to balanced teams like the 70's Knicks. John Paxson went the other way, trying to build balanced teams in Chicago, in direct opposition to the Jordan teams he played on. Pat Riley was with the Lakers organization for 20 years, didn't prevent him from coaching and putting together a number of vastly different teams.

    The point I'm trying to make is even the intractable Larry Bird may just have the ability to lick his finger, stick it up in the air, judge which direction the wind is blowing, and attempt to change course accordingly.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  19. #19
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Coliseum
    Posts
    6,248

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Larry Bird would be the first to tell you that TJ Ford is no Dennis Johnson.

    I think he would also be the first to say that you can't replicate that Celtics team. That team was built on incredible talent, 1-12, and structure was secondary.

    Even if that were possible, I'd like to think there's more to Larry than that. While Phil Jackson learned lessons about team chemistry from Red Holtzman, he certainly has not gravitated to balanced teams like the 70's Knicks. John Paxson went the other way, trying to build balanced teams in Chicago, in direct opposition to the Jordan teams he played on. Pat Riley was with the Lakers organization for 20 years, didn't prevent him from coaching and putting together a number of vastly different teams.

    The point I'm trying to make is even the intractable Larry Bird may just have the ability to lick his finger, stick it up in the air, judge which direction the wind is blowing, and attempt to change course accordingly.
    I noticed an error in my post. It should have read there is no doubt in my mind - not there is no doubt.

    And as tbird would say . . . just my opinion.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  20. #20

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    JOB was definitely all Bird.

    TJ Ford, Jarrett Jack and Brandon Rush fit nicely into JOB's team.

    Ford runs a great offense. Jack is a solid defender. Rush knows how to sneak into spots on the floor without being seen during fast breaks.

  21. #21
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,238

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Whether JOb is a short term (1 or 2 more years or longer term (3-5 more years), Bird is not picking players to fit JOb's style necessarily. I think that much is clear. He is also not really focusing on a true rebuild from the foundation up. What he IS doing is attempting to return to the playoffs ASAP by plugging holes with safe, solid picks and conservative trades...all with the goal of cleaning up the team's image. IMO, cleaning up the image is a second priority only to a return to the playoffs.

    So, bottom line is, I think Mickey Mouse could be coaching this team and the same picks would have been made...

  22. #22
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Coliseum
    Posts
    6,248

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    I think cleaning up the image is the MAIN priority. He could have a couple of years to build the team. He's got NO TIME to clean up the image.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  23. #23
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,238

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think cleaning up the image is the MAIN priority. He could have a couple of years to build the team. He's got NO TIME to clean up the image.
    This is a grey area. Now, I'm sure that keeping Jamaal Tinsley off the floor is more important to him than making the playoffs, but I don't think keeping Shawne Williams or Quis off the floor is more important. That is, some cleaning I will admit is more important than making the playoffs, but a full overhaul is not.

    That's where the thin ice comes in. Williams is barely acceptable. Tinsley is not.

  24. #24

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    Quote Originally Posted by YoSoyIndy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    JOB was definitely all Bird.
    Oh really? who told you that Donnie or Larry?

  25. #25

    Default Re: A re-examination of the past, and a looming conflict in the future in our Pacer organization

    I'm happy with the changes.. just to keep it simple. I would like to see a couple more, mainly no Tinsley, Quis or Williams.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •