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Thread: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick. Pacers get Baston, give up pick #41

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Does anybody remember the season opener a few yrs back vs the Bucks? TJ Ford was flat out amazing that game. If he's still on that level I'd love to have him.

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    B Lopez at 11 and Chalmers at 17, maybe?
    That would be a really good draft.
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  3. #103
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by circlecitysportsfan View Post
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    Does anybody remember the season opener a few yrs back vs the Bucks? TJ Ford was flat out amazing that game. If he's still on that level I'd love to have him.
    He's not. That's why Toronto wants to move him.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Well another positive from this could be that other teams that had maybe some interest in JO because of his contract becoming available when LeBron hits FA might also start doing something more to entice us to deal with them instead of Toronto.

    So far it seems more likely IMO that Toronto is the one doing that though .
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  5. #105
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    He can dominate in stretches. He's one of the quickest/fastest guys in the league, easily. He's also weak and you have to cover for him against the Andre Millers and Deron Williams of the league. Its all about match ups. He's still better than anyone they've had at the position since Mark Jackson, imho.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    He's not. That's why Toronto wants to move him.
    Toronto wants to move him, cause they Want Calderon as the starter
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneal07 View Post
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    Toronto wants to move him, cause they Want Calderon as the starter
    Because Ford's not the guy he was a few years ago in the season opener.
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  8. #108
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    T.J. Ford's style of play doesn't fit that well into Sam Mitchell's system. He was brought in when Colangelo came to town because of his ability to push the ball, but Mitchell has slowed the team down a bit. If Carlisle was still the Pacers coach, there would be little reason to bring in Ford...but, Ford, I do believe, would be a great fit in the system the Pacers are currently running because of his ability to push the ball up the floor. I do recall that game against Milwaukee a few years ago when he single handedly beat our entire team up the floor every time. I do believe that if he had permission to do that, outside of Mitchell's system, you would see him doing that. I'm all for bringing him to town.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Because Ford's not the guy he was a few years ago in the season opener.
    LOL. ok
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    If we can get another 1st round pick out of this deal, then go for it.

    I really think TJ Ford could be a decent, not great starter. Not sure how long that back of his could hold up though.

    This will put Murph at starting PF which I am more comfortable with, and Nesterovic could potentally be a decent backup to Foster.

    Now if this trade goes down, our potential draft picks/hopes totally change.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    If the rumor is correct and the Pacers can acquire TJ Ford , Nesterovic , #17 and filler for JO , I still draft DJ Augustin at pick 11 if he is there. At pick 17 you draft Marresse Speights or Javale McGee.

    With Ford and Augustin , you do as the Raptors did with Ford and Calderon and keep the pressure on defense with 2 point guards who can play uptempto sharing the playing time each night based on who is playing well .

    The Pacers could then buy out Jamaal Tinsley , let whoever wants him pay him the league minimum. Its apparent O'Brien and Bird are not wanting him around.

    Nesterovic's 8 mil expiring , Daniels 7.3 team option, Foster 5.5, not resigning Harrison 2.6mil qualifying offer , nor Diogu 3.9 qualifying offer for 2009/10 eases the salary cap space even eating Tinsley's deal for 2009/10 and 2010/11.

    To me though the key is pick 17 must be part of the trade .
    Last edited by diamonddave00; 06-23-2008 at 12:53 PM.

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Hibbert and Chalmers
    Ajinca and Chalmers
    Speights and Chalmers
    Hibbert and Rush
    Ajinca and Rush
    Speights and Rush

    and at 41 take Hill or Dorsey or Burrell.

    I would not be surprised at 2 bigs with Burrell at 41. Green as a non drafted invitee to camp.
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  13. #113

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    The perfect point guard is an illusion..

    Here is what we get with TJ, a super fast- blow by anyone player who is one of the best finishers in the league. What you dont get is a PG is can post up on O, or D up in the post vs bigger PGs.
    Jamaal would totally abuse him in the post in practices, then you would have TJ blow by Jamaal every time on the other side.
    But, TJ is so fast he is a very good perimeter defender, it is just when he is matched up by stronger PGs who try to post him up that he will need help.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 06-23-2008 at 12:56 PM.

  14. #114

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    I like how it's hit ESPN's front. Only because the word arrest isn't prominent.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    If they make this deal, does this mean we are drafting Speights/Randolph?

  16. #116
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Because Ford's not the guy he was a few years ago in the season opener.
    True...if he were that guy, we probably couldn't touch him.

    We have a beggar's choice with JO, but I like the risk here. If we can get Ford and the #17, then reduce our payroll this year and next by using Rasho and Baston as filler, then I think we should jump on it.

    Plus, let's say Ford suffers that injury that we fear. His total contract over the next three years is only $1.8 million more than we owe JO in the 2009-2010 season. (The one downside is that it does extend $8.3mm into 2010-2011.) (The total contract commitment, assuming we get Baston and #17, would end up a couple million less than what we owe JO, assuming a 4-yr, $7mm deal for the pick.)

    However, if Ford can play 70+ games at 13 & 7 (as he did the two seasons prior to this past one), then we get an upgrade at the point, and more flexibility in the draft (being able to go big, and two get two chances in the first round.)

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan_The_Dude View Post
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    Makes sense. They'd have to worry about J.O.'s knee, and we'd have to worry about Ford's back. I think it's a good deal. But man, if J.O. plays at least 70 games next to Chris Bosh...
    I agree across the board. This is what fair deals look like, risk on both sides where neither feels like it's "obvious". Even if JO does play a lot it still doesn't impact the Pacers much. They seem stuck and ready to move forward in a new way and this is a step in that direction.

    My point in any deal for JO, or Dun, Tins, etc would be that these are the deals that setup the NEXT deal(s). This isn't a one year fix, this is a legit reworking that's already been in place 2 years. The Golden St trade was big and moved 2 major pieces, one of which was part of the PR issues. So the rebuild starts there and it involved the team taking some real lumps in the W-L department as well as taking on some salary they didn't want.

    This trade wouldn't make the team better, but it could put a solid pick at 17 on the roster and give you a peek at a possible PG solution/help. This is what you do in order to get the roster really cleaned out and turned over.


    And I love JO as a Pacer btw. I just accept the nature of the situation.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by GenlHooker View Post
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    Could we have Christmas in June. To get rid of JO I would do almost anything
    Naw,

    Christmas would be if Tinsley were included too.

    This would just be an early 4th of July celebration. I know I'd launch a bottle rocket or too, even though Rasho is near-worthless and TJ is an injury concern.

    JO and David H for TJ, Rasho, #17, and Anthony Parker or Kris Humphries works for me.

    Real GM lists TJ as a full base-year-comp guy, so I couldn't get any trades to work ...

  19. #119
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I agree across the board. This is what fair deals look like, risk on both sides where neither feels like it's "obvious". Even if JO does play a lot it still doesn't impact the Pacers much. They seem stuck and ready to move forward in a new way and this is a step in that direction.

    My point in any deal for JO, or Dun, Tins, etc would be that these are the deals that setup the NEXT deal(s). This isn't a one year fix, this is a legit reworking that's already been in place 2 years. The Golden St trade was big and moved 2 major pieces, one of which was part of the PR issues. So the rebuild starts there and it involved the team taking some real lumps in the W-L department as well as taking on some salary they didn't want.

    This trade wouldn't make the team better, but it could put a solid pick at 17 on the roster and give you a peek at a possible PG solution/help. This is what you do in order to get the roster really cleaned out and turned over.


    And I love JO as a Pacer btw. I just accept the nature of the situation.
    I think it could make the team better, but I'm guessing it all depends on what you expect out of JO.

    If you think that JO can be healthy again and productive, then, no it doesn't. If JO would play 70+ games and provide, say, 18/8/3, then he'd be a boon to the team.

    If, however, you doubt JO can ever be counted on for that type of games/production (as I do), then you start comparing the team that you would have to the team that played for most of last year. Essentially, adding Ford and Nesterovic to the mix, I think you're a better team.

    However, I agree with the overall sentiment of your post. This is a nice, balanced risk trade, assuming we get the #17. The type of deal that I would love to work out for both teams: TJ and JO getting 70+ games and helping their teams out.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    foster, daniels, rasho all expiring, right?

    swing a trade with NY to send Tinsley away and get the expiring Starbury?

  21. #121

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Funny how things change!! A deal should have been done 2 years ago with Toronto! When it was circulated a deal of JO for CV, big expiring(can't presently remember who), filler and the Raptors #1 pick which was the 1st pick, fans on all boards had a fit. JO was worth more was the cried! I was in total favor of the trade, and like to got hung for my view. As I tried explaining, that Roy would be the #1, CV, expiring, and filler. No one wanted that crappy deal, for JO was worth more. Yeah right! I'd trade JO straight up for Roy, if it was possible, and carry his luggage on my back to the airport for his flight to his new home at Conseco.

    Some times a 2nd opportunity avails itself, and this is one of them. Take the trade that Toronto is offering, and consider it a blessing. Keep in mind you are getting a decent PG, a center with a 8 mil expiring, filler, and the #17 pick. Take Speights at #11 as JO's future replacement, take the #17 to draft Lee/Weaver/Ajinca. Everyone is willing to gamble on JO's health then it shouldn't be a problem gambling on Ford's health as the PG.

  22. #122
    Lifer 2minutes twowa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    I think it could make the team better, but I'm guessing it all depends on what you expect out of JO.

    If you think that JO can be healthy again and productive, then, no it doesn't. If JO would play 70+ games and provide, say, 18/8/3, then he'd be a boon to the team.

    If, however, you doubt JO can ever be counted on for that type of games/production (as I do), then you start comparing the team that you would have to the team that played for most of last year. Essentially, adding Ford and Nesterovic to the mix, I think you're a better team.

    However, I agree with the overall sentiment of your post. This is a nice, balanced risk trade, assuming we get the #17. The type of deal that I would love to work out for both teams: TJ and JO getting 70+ games and helping their teams out.
    It's not just about health. JO is a back to the basket, half court post player. The Pacers are no longer a half court, pound it in the post team. Healthy or not, he just doesn't fit anymore.
    Turn out the lights, this party's over!

  23. #123
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Last I knew, Toronto wasn't going for a half-court back to the basket kind of offensive game either and they seem to think JO can fit in their scheme.

  24. #124
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    Naw,

    Christmas would be if Tinsley were included too.

    This would just be an early 4th of July celebration. I know I'd launch a bottle rocket or too, even though Rasho is near-worthless and TJ is an injury concern.

    JO and David H for TJ, Rasho, #17, and Anthony Parker or Kris Humphries works for me.

    Real GM lists TJ as a full base-year-comp guy, so I couldn't get any trades to work ...
    TJ's BYC would expire on June 30th...

    The Pacers could do the deal with Parker:

    Successful Trade Scenario
    Congratulations on a successful trade.
    Due to Indiana and Toronto being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Indiana and Toronto had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

    Indiana Trade Breakdown
    Change in Team Outlook: +18.8 ppg, +4.2 rpg, and +7.2 apg.
    Incoming Players
    T.J. Ford
    5-11 PG from Texas
    12.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 6.1 apg in 23.5 minutes
    Rasho Nesterovic
    7-0 C from Slovenia (Foreign)
    7.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.1 apg in 20.9 minutes
    Anthony Parker
    6-6 SG / SF from Bradley
    12.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.2 apg in 32.1 minutes
    1st Round 2008 (#17)

    Outgoing Players
    Jermaine O'Neal
    6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
    13.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in 28.7 minutes

    Or, the as I mentioned earlier, the deal could be agreed to today, but consummated in August, using only Ford, Nesterovic, and the signed #17 draft pick (30 days after his contract signing). That would be the most advantageous to the Pacers from a cap perspective, but would require (a not unprecedented) "wink-and-a-nod" deal.

    Otherwise, TJ's $8,275 would only count as $4,138 for Toronto's outgoing salary for cap purposes in any pre 6/30 deal. (It would still be $8.3 for us.)

  25. #125

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Yeah, I don't really understand why Toronto wants Jermaine? Him and Bosh really play the same posistion. I don't see why he would be the one thay make a trade for.

    I hope this gets done though!
    Last edited by rock747; 06-23-2008 at 01:19 PM.

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