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Thread: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick. Pacers get Baston, give up pick #41

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    I actually thought Dale Davis was an awesome partner for JO in the short time they played together. Problem was, Dale was too long in the tooth and couldn't really be counted on for a full season.

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Just a thought, but I think Indiana might be re-packaging the #17 as an incentive for someone to take Tinsley off their hands.

    I could see Tinsley and the #17 being traded for Mark Blount.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-26-2008 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Meh. Just got home and realized how much I missed out on.

    I'm bummed. It's not on the level of the GS trade, but just once I'd like for us to make a trade with another team where we come out ahead. I'll bet UB's lunch money that a year from now everyone except BBall agrees that Toronto won this one.
    I don't necessarily agree. I think that both teams are taking risks....but I feel that Toronto is taking a greater risk but have ( obviously ) the higher reward.

    But I will take this for what it is.....we move JONeal....we finally take one of the last steps to get out from under the shadow of the Brawl....but we get back a injury-risk in Ford ( something that I am not entirely happy with ) that is the type of PG that fits the type of offense that we run.

    If JONeal returns healthy...then I'm happy for him and the Raptors...but won't be disappointed now that we can now resign Granger next season, have an additional draft pick in the mid-teens and will have a little bit more financial flexiblility in the 2009-2010 season to make some moves to fill whatever holes we discover this season under a "JONeal and Tinsley"-less Pacer roster.

    I'm not entirely happy.....mainly cuz it seems like we could have gotten more out of him if we traded him 1 or 2 years ago......but I will live with it only cuz it's simply time to move on.
    Last edited by CableKC; 06-26-2008 at 12:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Just a thought, but I think Indiana might be re-packaging the #17 as an incentive for someone to take Tinsley off their hands.

    I could see Tinsley and the #17 being traded for Mark Blount.
    After all that we went through just to get this pick.......

    I would much rather draft Hibbert and buy Tinsley out then take on Blount.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    After all that we went through just to get this pick.......

    I would much rather draft Hibbert and buy Tinsley out then take on Blount.
    No Kidding

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I have to admit I cracked up when Hollinger started talking about O'Neal being the one to do the dirty work for Bosh, as if they just got a guy who's known for that. Not that JO hasn't shown toughness in his own way, but on the court we were always looking for a guy to do that for HIM (closest we ever got were Jeff and Brad in their own ways), and now suddenly he's supposed to be that guy in JH's eyes.
    How did Hollinger find a regression to make that work. We need to hire him to make up some wacky numbers the next time we are on the wrong side of the facts on a case.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Plax80 View Post
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    I think we just replaced the 50th best PG with the 46th best according to CBS Sportsline all the while investing nearly $50mm the next three years at the position.
    That's harsh. TJ is the 18th best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peskoe97 View Post
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    I don't get the TJ injury concerns. He had one freak injury last year that caused him to miss a lot of games. In the two previous years he played over 70 games...
    I really hope you're kidding. May as well go chronologically, I guess...

    Here's high school:

    http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/...her-Again.html

    The summer before Ford was to enter the University of Texas he had another scary moment when he hit the floor and didn't get up. He was diagnosed with spinal stenosis, which, put simply, is abnormal narrowing of the openings of the vertebra through which the spinal cord runs.

    Surgery was considered and but eventually ruled out and Ford enjoyed two stellar seasons at the University of Texas without incident.
    Here's college:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ord/index.html

    Before the Bucks took Ford with the No. 8 pick in 2003, according to general manager Larry Harris, the team was aware of three episodes in which Ford had suffered a loss of feeling in his extremities. The third of these incidents took place in April 2003, after Ford had led Texas to the Final Four. He was driving to the basket during a pickup game at the campus rec center when he tripped headfirst into the thigh of teammate Royal Ivey and fell to the ground. "I can't move!" Ford cried, lying flat on his back.

    "He kept saying he couldn't feel his legs, his fingers, anything,'' said Ivey, now a backup guard with the Bucks. "He was paranoid and scared, and I was telling him to calm down, it was going to be all right.''

    At that time, Ford was more worried about his career than his health. "I had just signed with my agent, so no way I can go back to school,'' Ford said. "I thought, 'Now my dream is over. No one is going to draft me.' ''

    Ford regained feeling within 20 minutes and made a complete recovery within a month.
    Here's hist first major NBA spine injury that, by he sounds of things here will be news to many of you, caused him to sit out an entire season and a half. Yes, 20 months...or 96 straight games. Check his 2004-2005 stats.

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...rd-cover_x.htm

    Questions of safety and health hover in the rafters wherever Ford plays these days. Tuesday he will walk onto an NBA court for his first real game since Feb. 24, 2004. That night, 20 months ago, the Bucks' high-flying point guard collided with the Minnesota Timberwolves' Mark Madsen on a drive to the basket and landed hard on his tailbone.

    Ford did not get up. He felt numb all over. He was taken from the court on a stretcher. He could walk in the months before surgery, but some numbness persisted. In May, Robert G. Watkins of the Los Angeles Spine Surgery Institute fused two vertebrae in Ford's neck. More than a year after that, last June, Watkins cleared Ford to play again.

    Ford trained intensively for four months in his hometown of Houston under the tutelage of former NBA point guard John Lucas. They worked on Ford's jumper. They worked on his strength and stamina. And they worked on his fear.
    And then there was this year's Horford hit, which saw him carried off on a stretcher, spend a night in the hospital and miss 26 games.

    And may as well end with a medical diagnosis of potential long-term effects of his disease:

    http://www.hughston.com/hha/a_12_2_2.htm

    Degenerative disc disease (wearing down of shock-absorbing structures between vertebrae), bone spurs (overgrowth of bone), or vertebral subluxation (one vertebral body slipping forward onto the next) further narrows the spinal canal as the person with cervical spinal stenosis ages. These changes can lead to long-term spinal cord compression, resulting in loss of nerve function such as numbness, weakness, and loss of fine motor control in the arms and hands and difficulty with walking. Sometimes, symptoms are so severe that you need surgery to relieve them.
    This whole injury discussion should be its own thread. I feel like a lot of people don't even realize he missed an entire NBA season (plus) and has two vertabrae fused together.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 06-26-2008 at 01:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Just a thought, but I think Indiana might be re-packaging the #17 as an incentive for someone to take Tinsley off their hands.
    I was hoping that.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    One thing to remember is that TJ Ford, in his 2nd year(05-06), led the Bucks to the playoffs and played the 2nd most minutes on the team behind Michael Redd.

    Here's their top 8 in order of minutes played for that season:

    Redd, Ford, Bobby Simmons, Magloire, Bogut, Mo Williams, Charlie Bell, Toni Kukoc

    Even in a weak East, that's a terrible roster for a playoff team.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    One thing to remember is that TJ Ford, in his 2nd year(05-06), led the Bucks to the playoffs and played the 2nd most minutes on the team behind Michael Redd.
    His third year.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Ya I think it is pretty offical as it is going to get for us untill the 9th

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3461029

    watch the video on the page...



    this is from the nba.com news section in middle of page..

    Also I am glad we are getting Maceo back for the 41'st pick .. , I always liked him , and I think if given the minutes , he is a very good.. under rated player...
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    wow.. I was just at realgm and someone had posted a listing of JO's injuries dating back to 2004...

    I didn't realize there were that many ...lol


    Here's JO's injury history back to 2004:


    MOVEMENTS & INJURIES
    31-Mar-08 Missed 33 games (bruised left knee).
    19-Jan-08 Bruised left knee, day-to-day.
    12-Jan-08 Missed 1 game (sore left knee).
    09-Jan-08 Sore left knee, day-to-day.
    30-Nov-07 Missed 5 games (knee injury).
    21-Nov-07 Knee injury, day-to-day.
    02-Nov-07 Missed 1 game (knee surgery).
    31-Oct-07 Knee surgery, day-to-day.
    18-Apr-07 Missed the last 2 games of the regular season (sore left knee).
    17-Apr-07 Sore left knee, inactive list.
    03-Apr-07 Missed 1 game (sore left knee).
    01-Apr-07 Sore left knee, day-to-day.
    30-Mar-07 Missed 1 game (left ankle injury).
    28-Mar-07 Left ankle injury, inactive list.
    14-Mar-07 Missed 3 games (sore left knee).
    10-Mar-07 Sore left knee, day-to-day.
    09-Feb-07 Missed 1 game (left knee injury).
    07-Feb-07 Left knee injury, inactive list.
    29-Dec-06 Missed 1 game (flu).
    26-Dec-06 Flu, day-to-day.
    13-Dec-06 Missed 3 games (hamstring).
    08-Dec-06 Hamstring, day-to-day.
    10-Nov-06 Missed 1 game (sprained left ankle).
    08-Nov-06 Sprained left ankle, day-to-day.
    27-Apr-06 Fined $15,000 by the NBA for publicly criticizing officials.
    01-Apr-06 Missed 1 game (groin).
    30-Mar-06 Groin, day-to-day.
    22-Mar-06 Missed 24 games (groin).
    27-Jan-06 Groin, day-to-day.
    21-Jan-06 Missed 3 games (sprained left ankle).
    16-Jan-06 Sprained left ankle, day-to-day.
    08-Jan-06 Missed 3 games (pneumonia).
    02-Jan-06 Pneumonia, day-to-day.
    29-Apr-05 Fined $10,000 by the NBA for his actions in Game 3 of Round One against the Boston Celtics.
    17-Apr-05 Missed 22 games (sprained right shoulder).
    04-Mar-05 Sprained right shoulder, injured list.
    24-Dec-04 Missed 15 games (suspension).
    21-Nov-04 Suspended by the NBA for 25 games for his actions on Nov 19 against the Detroit Pistons.
    05-Nov-04 Missed 1 game (foot injury).
    01-Nov-04 Foot injury, injured list.
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    wow what a horrible trade...bosh/jo up front is going to be pretty nasty.
    How dissapointing is this...
    well JO you got your wish...enjoy being on a contender! haha
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I have to admit I cracked up when Hollinger started talking about O'Neal being the one to do the dirty work for Bosh, as if they just got a guy who's known for that. Not that JO hasn't shown toughness in his own way, but on the court we were always looking for a guy to do that for HIM (closest we ever got were Jeff and Brad in their own ways), and now suddenly he's supposed to be that guy in JH's eyes.
    Yeah, this is a good point. I think JO, if healthy, will probably have a solid year for them, but he's never been a banger. Excellent defender but not in a physical manner. More of a finesse post guy. Not unlike Bosh himself.

    Hollinger's assessment you reference reminds me of how I reacted to hearing Van Gundy's take last night on the absolutely worthless ESPN preview. He said adding JO made the Raps 3rd best in the East and that was enough to tilt the scales to them in who got the better end of the deal.

    Now I suppose in the East Toronto may well be in the running for 3rd best with or without JO. I still think that they have a lot to prove myself. JO, Bosh, and Bargnani is a talented front line, but not necessarily a power, dominant group. Calderon is obviously good. But not Paul or Williams good. What about guys like Parker, Moon, and Delfino? Still sounds like a fairly slow, soft group IMO.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Here's a Toronto Star columnist not so enthralled with their newest acquisition. Interesting point of view in light of the company line's portrayal of the Raps new and improved frontline.

    http://www.thestar.com/comment/colum...article/449551



    O'Neal deal a step backwards







    Jun 26, 2008 04:30 AM
    Dave Feschuk

    Bryan Colangelo, the fashion-wise head honcho of the Toronto Raptors, showed up at the club's annual pre-draft press conference wearing the usual checklist of chicer-than-thou finery yesterday. The bespoke summer-weight navy suit? Check. The belt-and-shoe combo crafted from the finest leather of caviar-fed virgin ostriches? Goes without saying.
    But hang on. Your alert correspondent spotted a chink in the Men's Vogue-worthy exterior. Colangelo's shirt – and it was the usual high-style, high-collared, hand-sewn-by-a-grandmother-on-the-outskirts-of-Bologna shirt – was bereft of the usual worth-more-than-your-Toyota cufflinks.

    It was a shocking omission, like Shaq O'Neal suddenly stripped of his deputy's badge. And granted, if you're looking for symbolism in the fearless leader's image, this wasn't exactly Rob Babcock in a wrinkled golf shirt and Dockers keeping the secret that turned out to be Rafael Freaking Araujo.
    But this was Colangelo having recently rolled up his sleeves for some sadly heavy lifting. Word came down yesterday afternoon, not long after Colangelo bid the media adieu, that the deal to ship troubled point guard T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, Toronto's 17th-overall pick in tonight's NBA draft, and a bit player to Indiana for Jermaine O'Neal amounted to an agreement in principle. And that only confirmed this: These are desperate times for the local hoopsters, who are coming off a disappointing season and a five-game, first-round playoff ouster.

    While adding O'Neal might help the .500 squad make an incremental improvement this coming season, his arrival in Toronto marks a step backward for a once up-and-coming club. Thirty in October, Jermaine might be better known as Jer-pain or Jer-moan for his alarming history of injury and gimme-the-ball immaturity. But Colangelo's suddenly not-so-young Raptors weren't exactly dealing from strength.

    "We need to get tougher, we need to get bigger, defence, rebounding," said Colangelo, running down the not-inconsiderable weaknesses. "There's a lot of things we need to address." The lot can be hung on Colangelo's tie rack. Why do they need to get bigger and better at rebounding? Partly because Colangelo's No. 1-overall pick in the 2006 draft, Andrea Bargnani, has played far smaller and weaker than Colangelo promised. Why did they need to jettison Ford? Because, like O'Neal, he's prone to injury and immaturity, no secret from the acquisition.

    Nine months ago, Colangelo said the core of the club was Chris Bosh, Ford and Bargnani. Now Ford's heading out, Bargnani's a boot-camp summer away from being declared a bust, and Bosh is working on his game ... as a Jay Leno contributor. Comedy is Bosh's only remedy, perhaps, because he and Toronto's fans never expected it to get so lame so quickly.
    Does O'Neal get them to the second round? His health's a bigger question mark than Ford's, and he's a worse teammate than Nesterovic with, recent returns suggest, only marginally better stats. Even if he's better than that, remember Colangelo's vision of the Euro-tinged, 100-shots-a-night Raptors? Now they'll indulge O'Neal's painfully deliberate, averse-to-contact post game. If you thought Ford was a chemistry problem, wait until Jer-mine goes without his touches.

    Colangelo built the seven-seconds-or-less Suns, but so much for sticking to the vision. The bog-it-down Celtics are the NBA champs. The Suns are ripping to shreds what Colangelo wrought. And Colangelo, in acquiring a hobbled O'Neal à la Phoenix's Shaq, has chucked the dream, too.
    Perhaps even worse, another of Toronto's perceived advantages – the in-house knowledge of European talent – is moot. Talented Euros aren't yearning for the lagging U.S. greenback.

    "They're fighting back a little bit," said Colangelo of the European sides.
    The Raptors, by contrast, are doubling back in the direction of the Babcock era, without cap room to yield more talent. Not that Colangelo is about to show up in Dockers, not that they're a laughingstock. But a year ago the GM was billing his team as more carefully constructed than some disposable fashion. Suddenly his killer wardrobe is looking far more thoughtfully put together than his roster.



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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    I didn't know Kravitz had a brother...

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    When I analyze this trade - I see a low risk, low reward type of trade. What I mean is both teams are not risking a whole lot.

    I don't think Ford is "the answer" at point guard - but he is an upgrade. if he gets injured, then insurance picks up 80% and we aren't any worse off. Afterall JO is so injury prone and I think needed a change of scenery that he wasn't doing us any good.

    If the worst happans - Ford gets injured, and the 17th pick is a bust - what did we really lose, an injured unhappy JO sitting on the bench.

    I don't see the downside. Unless you think the pacers could have gotten more as JO's contract gets closer to expiring.

    So we have nothing to lose by making this trade, and yet the posible upside isn't that great. Low risk low reward.

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
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    Also I am glad we are getting Maceo back for the 41'st pick .. , I always liked him , and I think if given the minutes , he is a very good.. under rated player...
    I read that, too, and was actually alittle relieved.

    Baston has always played above the rim. I was upset that RC didn't play him more when he was here 2 yrs ago. Baston's not a big offensive threat, nor is he a big-time shot blocker, but one thing this Pacers team has lacked since he left has been a player with some "ups". I grew tired of watching every other team get these easy "ali-oops" off fast breaks. It looks like getting Ford, Nesterovic and Baston's return will bring some of that "above the rim play" back.

    Hmmm...

    My pallatte has been tempted...my taste buds have been awakened...

    If Bird takes that player(s) I think he'll select in tonight's draft, this trade could turn out to be a very smart move indeed.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 06-26-2008 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    His third year.
    His 3rd year out of college, his 2nd year playing. He missed his true 2nd year. Semantics is fun.

    The point still stands. This Pacer team with him on it is a better team than the Milwaukee team that made the playoffs. I'd almost say it's not even debatable.
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    So we traded our second rounder then?

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by rock747 View Post
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    So we traded our second rounder then?
    Apparently.

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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    All (or at least quite a many) things studied and considered, I'm not very excited about this trade in case it really materializes. Well, I'm not totally against it, though, but I still happen to believe we could get a little bit more for O'Neal.

  23. #723

    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    I just wish the deal could be finalized so we know exactly what we have going into tonights draft. I'm afraid Toronto might back out.

  24. #724

    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    I'm going to say this then embrace TJ as a Pacer.

    We just got a guy making 8-9 mil for three years who has been replace by his back up in his prior two stops. That leads me to believe he isn't a clear cut starter and has problems sharing the spot.

    I'm not thrilled with the thought of a team with MDJr, Murphy and Ford. We just aren't very tough.

    Last post about the trade. Good luck all involved.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  25. #725
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm going to say this then embrace TJ as a Pacer.

    We just got a guy making 8-9 mil for three years who has been replace by his back up in his prior two stops. That leads me to believe he isn't a clear cut starter and has problems sharing the spot.

    I'm not thrilled with the thought of a team with MDJr, Murphy and Ford. We just aren't very tough.

    Last post about the trade. Good luck all involved.
    What are you basing that on? Mike answered a lot of questions on toughness and his game last year and what makes you think Ford isn't tough? Was JO tough?

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