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Thread: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick. Pacers get Baston, give up pick #41

  1. #351
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Count... i believe you hit the nail on the head.

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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    Money-wise the Cleveland deal is much better and less risky.
    No question. That's a perfect deal in my eyes.

    Sideshow at $5.7 million is so much better than TJ Ford at $8.5 million to me that I probably can't even have a written discussion about it with people who don't see that as obvious.

    So you get Sideshow for one or two years...which has zero downside since there is no chance (barring fluke injury) that you don't get $5.7 million out of him.

    And you get a pick.

    And you get salary relief when Wally expires in 12 months.

    That's three assets.

    With TJ, you get three expensive years of a midling "change of pace" PG at best with injury concerns and little defense. And regardless of how you feel about him, there is a good chance we won't get $8.5 million of production out of him. Especially not 246 games of it plus playoffs. Hell, MDJ put up 19/5/4 and half of the Pacer fans still think he's overpaid at $9 million.

    So, in trading for TJ...you're taking a risk. There's no debating that. It's a gamble. And you're taking that gamble just for the #17 pick and the hope that TJ lives up to his salary, which I can't see much people thinking he will ever actually exceed.

    With Cleveland, there is absolutely zero risk...plus you get #19 (essentially the same pick) and Wally, who, while likely only a 12-month rental, could fit in well in the form of sticking open threes in JO'Bs open-shot producing offense. I'm not particularly optimistic about the guy, but he certainly offers you more in 12 months as far as winning and turning around a disillusioned fanbase that Rasho, who clearly adds next to nothing.

    -------

    The only other point I want to make is that I gurantee I'll enjoy watching TJ play for us if that trade goes down. I do like the kid. He's a pretty good offensive player, a decent distributer and certainly fun to watch. He'll be ultra quick and make a lot of cool plays. He'll sprint down the court and find guys for dunks and he'll make neat up-and-under buckets when he penetrates.

    It will be cool. And I guarentee I'll enjoy watching him play offense sometime.

    But I also gurantee he won't be our starting PG if we get back to an ECF.

    So what's the point?

    Dude is a band-aid for a severed limb. No need to take a risk like that. Just wait til a prostetic becomes available and spend your $8.5 million.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 06-25-2008 at 03:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    With the assumption that the two trades are as follows:

    TOR - Ford, Rasho, Garbajosa (or Graham), #17

    CLE - Wally, Verajao, #19

    I would much rather take the Toronto deal. Ford is the best player out of that whole mix (he is 25 and is a very good PG - being our biggest need). Plus you get the same amount in expiring contracts. And the higher draft pick. I think the only thing that the cleveland deal has on the toronoto deal is that ford's deal is 3 years versus 2 for verajao. Of course I could also see Verajao opting out after next year saving two years of salary in the cle deal.

    Imagine if we then packaged the #11 and Marquis to Memphis for the #5 and Brian Cardinal.

    We can then get whoever the hell we want at 5.
    I really don't want anything to do with Verajao. That guy has an inflated view of himself.
    Turn out the lights, this party's over!

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    With the assumption that the two trades are as follows:

    TOR - Ford, Rasho, Garbajosa (or Graham), #17

    CLE - Wally, Verajao, #19

    I would much rather take the Toronto deal. Ford is the best player out of that whole mix (he is 25 and is a very good PG - being our biggest need). Plus you get the same amount in expiring contracts. And the higher draft pick. I think the only thing that the cleveland deal has on the toronoto deal is that ford's deal is 3 years versus 2 for verajao. Of course I could also see Verajao opting out after next year saving two years of salary in the cle deal.

    Imagine if we then packaged the #11 and Marquis to Memphis for the #5 and Brian Cardinal.

    We can then get whoever the hell we want at 5.
    Think I read recently that Garbajosa had signed with Unicaja, which would make him a no go in the trade. I agree the Toronto one is better, particularly if you're looking at it from a player standpoint. Verajao isn't much more to write home about than Rasho, who's got the expiring like Wally in the Cleveland deal, but I don't think Wally's worth crap anyway.

    Ford is the top talent involved in either. Of course, the spinal X factor is a risky proposition. Draft pick is slightly better from Toronto, too. Assuming you draft/acquire another PG this offseason in addition to TJ, I think you hedge your bet on Ford's proven talent and hope you get reasonable mileage from him over the next 2-3 while the rookie PG is groomed. However, a guy like Agustin could feasibly step right in and play if aboslutely necessary.

    I don't see how Quis plus 11 is near enough to swing us the 5 pick.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Wells is going to be on Eddie and Kravitz sometime today

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    No question. That's a perfect deal in my eyes.

    Sideshow at $5.7 million is so much better than TJ Ford at $8.5 million to me that I probably can't even have a written discussion about it with people who don't see that as obvious.

    So you get Sideshow for one or two years...which has zero downside since there is no chance (barring fluke injury) that you don't get $5.7 million out of him.

    And you get a pick.

    And you get salary relief when Wally expires in 12 months.

    That's three assets.

    With TJ, you get three expensive years of a midling "change of pace" PG at best with injury concerns and little defense. And regardless of how you feel about him, there is a good chance we won't get $8.5 million of production out of him. Especially not 246 games of it plus playoffs. Hell, MDJ put up 19/5/4 and half of the Pacer fans still think he's overpaid at $9 million.

    So, in trading for TJ...you're taking a risk. There's no debating that. It's a gamble. And you're taking that gamble just for the #17 pick and the hope that TJ lives up to his salary, which I can't see much people thinking he will ever actually exceed.

    With Cleveland, there is absolutely zero risk...plus you get #19 (essentially the same pick) and Wally, who, while likely only a 12-month rental, could fit in well in the form of sticking open threes in JO'Bs open-shot producing offense. I'm not particularly optimistic about the guy, but he certainly offers you more in 12 months as far as winning and turning around a disillusioned fanbase that Rasho, who clearly adds next to nothing.

    -------

    The only other point I want to make is that I gurantee I'll enjoy watching TJ play for us if that trade goes down. I do like the kid. He's a pretty good offensive player, a decent distributer and certainly fun to watch. He'll be ultra quick and make a lot of cool plays. He'll sprint down the court and find guys for dunks and he'll make neat up-and-under buckets when he penetrates.

    It will be cool. And I guarentee I'll enjoy watching him play offense sometime.

    But I also gurantee he won't be our starting PG if we get back to an ECF.

    So what's the point?

    Dude is a band-aid for a severed limb. No need to take a risk like that. Just wait til a prostetic becomes available and spend your $8.5 million.
    JR, a couple things on your reasoning. I think it's certainly valid. I could be swung over to the Cleveland deal as preferable only if there were further deals in place. Say, moving Foster b/c Varejao is approximately a Foster clone best case. I honestly don't think he's that superior to Rasho outside the energy with which he plays.

    Cavs is also tough for me to swallow b/c I just find Wally worthless despite the fact that I know his main role is the expiring. I'm leaning more toward risking Toronto right now. I understand your comment about Ford being an unlikely ECF starting PG. However, my view is that we're far enough from that point that TJ would have moved on by the point we'd realistically be back to that level even if he played out 2-3 years of his contract.
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    No question. That's a perfect deal in my eyes.

    Sideshow at $5.7 million is so much better than TJ Ford at $8.5 million to me that I probably can't even have a written discussion about it with people who don't see that as obvious.

    So you get Sideshow for one or two years...which has zero downside since there is no chance (barring fluke injury) that you don't get $5.7 million out of him.

    And you get a pick.

    And you get salary relief when Wally expires in 12 months.

    That's three assets.

    With TJ, you get three expensive years of a midling "change of pace" PG at best with injury concerns and little defense. And regardless of how you feel about him, there is a good chance we won't get $8.5 million of production out of him. Especially not 246 games of it plus playoffs. Hell, MDJ put up 19/5/4 and half of the Pacer fans still think he's overpaid at $9 million.

    So, in trading for TJ...you're taking a risk. There's no debating that. It's a gamble. And you're taking that gamble just for the #17 pick and the hope that TJ lives up to his salary, which I can't see much people thinking he will ever actually exceed.

    With Cleveland, there is absolutely zero risk...plus you get #19 (essentially the same pick) and Wally, who, while likely only a 12-month rental, could fit in well in the form of sticking open threes in JO'Bs open-shot producing offense. I'm not particularly optimistic about the guy, but he certainly offers you more in 12 months as far as winning and turning around a disillusioned fanbase that Rasho, who clearly adds next to nothing.

    -------

    The only other point I want to make is that I gurantee I'll enjoy watching TJ play for us if that trade goes down. I do like the kid. He's a pretty good offensive player, a decent distributer and certainly fun to watch. He'll be ultra quick and make a lot of cool plays. He'll sprint down the court and find guys for dunks and he'll make neat up-and-under buckets when he penetrates.

    It will be cool. And I guarentee I'll enjoy watching him play offense sometime.

    But I also gurantee he won't be our starting PG if we get back to an ECF.

    So what's the point?

    Dude is a band-aid for a severed limb. No need to take a risk like that. Just wait til a prostetic becomes available and spend your $8.5 million.
    Excellent post, and I understand your reasoning much better now. I'm not in the same place as you, as I clearly have a much higher opinion of Ford (no, not $8.3mm, but closer) but that's a very clear, sound rationale for your position.

  8. #358
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    I think people are also underrating Varejao in this equation.

    I mean, I hate the guy...think he's one of the bigger douchebags in the whole Association, IMO. He's an annoying flopper with a ridiculous haircut and I just really don't like anything about him personally.

    But that doesn't take away from the fact that he grabbed 8.3 rpg last year in 27 minutes per.
    Or that he led the League in charges-taken in 2006-07.
    Or that he was 20th in the League in charges-taken this year.
    Or that he manages enough garbage buckets to score 7 ppg in only 6 shots.
    Or that he isn't afraid of the 4th quarter.
    Or that he'd be our best interior defender outside of Jeff (who, as noted, becomes expendable if we get AV).
    Or that he's instant energy and change-of-pace on both ends of the floor.
    Or that he's willing, ready and able to run and finish in transition.

    I really don't like him at all...But you're not going to get many better deals in this league than Anderson Varejao at $5.7 million.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 06-25-2008 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    I think people are also underrating Varejao in this equation.

    I mean, I hate the guy...think he's one of the bigger douchebags in the whole Association, IMO. He's an annoying flopper with a ridiculous haircut and I just really don't like anything about him personally.

    But that doesn't take away from the fact that he grabbed 8.3 rpg last year in 27 minutes per.
    Or that he was 20th in the League in charges-taken in those same 27 minutes per.
    Or that he manages enough garbage buckets to score 7 ppg in only 6 shots.
    Or that he isn't afraid of the 4th quarter.
    Or that he'd be our best interior defender outside of Jeff (who, as noted, becomes expendable if we get AV).
    Or that he's instant energy and change-of-pace on both ends of the floor.
    Or that he's willing, ready and able to run and finish in transition.

    I really don't like him at all...But you're not going to get many better deals in this league than Anderson Varejao at $5.7 million.
    True...he's just so...blah

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    I am sorry mr redd. I completely disagree with your assessment of TJ Ford. I think he is one of the best passers in the game. He sees the cutting/passing lanes and knows where every teammate is at all times. He makes other players around him better. He beats people off the dribble consistently. I do agree however that he is undersized and will get posted up. But I like him as the PG of our team.

    I dont like verajao's game. For as much as he gets credit for being a good defender, I think that is a stretch. He cheats too much and gives up too many easy baskets. I LOVE his hustle and thats the only reason he is a rotational player in this league. He isnt worth more than 6 or 7M per year. I think Ford is a much better player than varajao. And a difference of what 2.5M/year i think i would rather have the better basketball player.

    Of course I think these trades, if they happen, will occur based on whatever the teams draft strategy is. If they go big at #11 I can see them going for the Toronto deal. If they get augustin at 11 i can see them going with the Cle deal. I think that will dictate what they do moreso than anything.

    redd.... love your witty humorous responses in general.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Absolutely!

    I'll ask this question AGAIN, has there been a bigger expiring contract than Theo Ratiff's 11.6 mil? And that wasn't until this past season.

    Overly large expirings are difficult if not near impossible to trade, unless it gets to trade deadline time and the team holding the expiring has paid half the salary of the player with the expiring. If the player has attitude problems, loss of skills, or injury problems, it makes them extremely difficult to trade.
    Yes, there have been two that I've found that would've been treated as "expiring" in terms of that being their primary value:

    Steve Francis ($14.5mm) traded to Portland with Frye for Zach Randolph, Dickau, and Freddie Jones.


    And, oddly enough, the biggest I found was Penny Hardaway ($15.6mm) traded to the Magic with Ariza for, you guessed it, Steve Francis.

    So, yes, there were two gigantic expirings used to get players...both by Isiah's Knicks...I let you judge as to whether Francis or Randolph were good values.

  12. #362

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Yes, there have been two that I've found that would've been treated as "expiring" in terms of that being their primary value:

    Steve Francis ($14.5mm) traded to Portland with Frye for Zach Randolph, Dickau, and Freddie Jones.


    And, oddly enough, the biggest I found was Penny Hardaway ($15.6mm) traded to the Magic with Ariza for, you guessed it, Steve Francis.

    So, yes, there were two gigantic expirings used to get players...both by Isiah's Knicks...I let you judge as to whether Francis or Randolph were good values.

    Thank you so kindly for the information! I'll keep it for future info. As far as them being gigantic, not in comparison to Starbury or JO's.

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    Maceo Baston's #1 fan on Pacers Digest!

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

    NEW YORK – After on-and-off again negotiations, the Indiana Pacers are close to an agreement to send six-time All-Star Jermaine O’Neal to the Toronto Raptors for point guard T.J. Ford and the 17th pick in Thursday’s NBA draft, a league executive said Wednesday.
    After nearly completing the deal earlier in the week, Pacers and Raptors officials needed to exchange more medical information on O’Neal’s left knee and Ford’s neck before finding a comfort level with the trade. It is believed both sides now are comfortable making the deal, and barring a last-minute change of heart, it’s expected to be completed within hours.
    Toronto also will send Rasho Nesterovic and another role player to match up with O’Neal’s salary. O’Neal is owed $44 million over the next two seasons. He played just 42 games for Indiana a year ago with a left knee injury. O’Neal has expressed a desire to leave the Pacers for a contender.

    Ford, who has a history of neck injuries, became expendable when Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo decided that he wanted to make Jose Calderon the franchise’s future at point guard.
    The Pacers would now hold the 11th and 17th picks in the draft.


    ________________________________________________

    Yahoo is reporting as if it's nearly a done deal!

  15. #365

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    [QUOTE=D-BONE;741803]

    Think I read recently that Garbajosa had signed with Unicaja,QUOTE]


    Not as of yesterday. AAMOF(as a matter of fact), I read yesterday either on hoops or realgm that he stated he if the right NBA offer was given he'd stay! I didn't understand how he could do that with everything involved in the litigation.
    Last edited by Justin Tyme; 06-25-2008 at 05:17 PM.

  16. #366

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    ford would be perfect for JOB's offense. he's blazing fast and his quickness and explosiveness would be a great addition to our slow and unathletic current backcourt.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Lets hope this report is accurate... I think that's a great deal for the Pacers.

    On a side note, with Miami playing around with the 2nd pick, any chance we try to package our way up to number two??

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    NEW YORK – After on-and-off again negotiations, the Indiana Pacers have agreed in principle to send six-time All-Star Jermaine O’Neal to the Toronto Raptors for point guard T.J. Ford and the 17th pick in Thursday’s NBA draft, a league executive said Wednesday.

    After nearly completing the deal earlier in the week, Pacers and Raptors officials needed to exchange more medical information on O’Neal’s left knee and Ford’s neck before finding a comfort level with the trade. It is believed both sides now are comfortable making the deal, though the trade won’t be complete until both O’Neal and Ford pass their physicals.


    Toronto also will send Rasho Nesterovic and another role player to match up with O’Neal’s salary. O’Neal is owed $44 million over the next two seasons. He played just 42 games for Indiana a year ago with a left knee injury. O’Neal has expressed a desire to leave the Pacers for a contender.

    Ford, who has a history of neck injuries, became expendable when Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo decided that he wanted to make Jose Calderon the franchise’s future at point guard.


    The Pacers would now hold the 11th and 17th picks in the draft.
    They are now saying that we have agreed to do it.

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    Default Re: JO to Raptors getting closer ...

    Woah. Sounds serious!

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    Default O誰eal nearing trade to Toronto for Ford By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports(how credible?)

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

    O誰eal nearing trade to Toronto for Ford

    By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports 31 minutes ago

    NEW YORK After on-and-off again negotiations, the Indiana Pacers are close to an agreement to send six-time All-Star Jermaine O誰eal to the Toronto Raptors for point guard T.J. Ford and the 17th pick in Thursday痴 NBA draft, a league executive said Wednesday.


    After nearly completing the deal earlier in the week, Pacers and Raptors officials needed to exchange more medical information on O誰eal痴 left knee and Ford痴 neck before finding a comfort level with the trade. It is believed both sides now are comfortable making the deal, and barring a last-minute change of heart, it痴 expected to be completed within hours.


    Toronto also will send Rasho Nesterovic and another role player to match up with O誰eal痴 salary. O誰eal is owed $44 million over the next two seasons. He played just 42 games for Indiana a year ago with a left knee injury. O誰eal has expressed a desire to leave the Pacers for a contender.



    Ford, who has a history of neck injuries, became expendable when Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo decided that he wanted to make Jose Calderon the franchise痴 future at point guard.


    The Pacers would now hold the 11th and 17th picks in the draft.

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    Default Re: O誰eal nearing trade to Toronto for Ford By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports(how credible?)

    Adrian Wojnarowski is solid. I have no doubt that this is just about done.

  22. #372

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    I'm pretty stoked if this deal really did go through. That totally changes everything for tomarrow night, and made it much more exciting! Ahh! I love draft time! (especially when our team sucks)

    Let the speculation on 17 begin.

    I'm thinking we end up with Hibbert and Koufos.

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    Default Re: JO to Raptors getting closer ...

    OMG!

    I really didn't think this was going to happen and since it's Yahoo and not BSPN this is probably a done deal.

    I hate this trade but the rebuilding process is clearly underway and the Pacers will be getting younger like many of you are so looking forward to. I hope there's another trade around the corner to improve this team.

    If this is true, I guess we're gonna definitely get a big man in the first round after all. I hope we can get Hibbert at 17. I love his defense although I'm not crazy about his rebounding and footwork offensively.
    Last edited by naptownmenace; 06-25-2008 at 05:26 PM.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: O誰eal nearing trade to Toronto for Ford By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports(how credible?)

    My Dad (the Raptors fan): "Gawwwwdddddddddddddd..."

  25. #375

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Wait JO hasn't opened his mouth yet.

    GOOD-BYE TINJURY!!!

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