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Thread: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick. Pacers get Baston, give up pick #41

  1. #276
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    If these are our options than just keep JO and wait it out. I know, I know, and I'm not thrilled with that either, but trading our problems for other problems is why our roster is so horrible right now. No reason to continue that just for change's sake.
    i'm not necessarily disagreeing. i think JO's value, even if injured, should improve by next summer when he is an exp. contract. but coming away from a JO trade with TJ Ford, Rasho, Speights and Chalmers wouldn't be the worst thing in the world -- especially when you consider the difference in price.

    as i said before i'd like to find a third team to send TJ to but the deal itself doesn't send me into a violent, storage unit-burning rage.
    Last edited by avoidingtheclowns; 06-24-2008 at 12:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    coming away from a JO trade with TJ Ford, Rasho, Speights and Chalmers wouldn't be the worst thing in the world -- especially when you consider the difference in price.
    Well, one of Speights or Chalmers is a completely independent situation from the JO situation since we already have that #11 as an asset.

    And as Bird and many other reports have stated, getting a mid-to-late First Round pick in this draft should not be overly difficult...so Chalmers could also be attainable otherwise if we're really sold on him (Jeff, Shawne or Diogu could get us at least in the 20-25 range, me reckons).

    So that leaves you "coming away from a JO trade with" A) an expiring, B) a problem, and C) a pick you could likely get through means that don't include adding an additional problem to our roster.

    Doesn't sound as good in those terms.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 06-24-2008 at 12:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Here's what I want:

    A) One Rasho/Wally-sized expiring
    B) One fairly paid player of value
    C) filler

    I really don't think that's unreasonable, regardless of JO's plummeting value. I mean, I wasn't in love with that Cleveland deal proposed earlier, but that was more in line with what we need.

    Becauset the number one -- and unconditional -- factor is that we take on no more problems.

    And, to me, TJ Ford is just another problem. It's basically refinancing your Tinsley mortgage on a guy with even less upside. He's another rigid asset that you can't move easilly because he's overpaid and locked up for multiple years. No GM in this league wants that anymore. Nor is he capable of playing over 30 mpg due to fragility and defensive liabilities. We wanna pay 8.5 for that for the next three years? Champ-ion-ship!
    I wonder if we can really command the player of value-meaning no significant problems. Reason I say this is that JO may have reached the level where he, too, is perceived to be a highly-paid player of value but with problems. So it almost becomes the quandry of trading your problems, in this case of the physical variety, for someone else's player with certain perceived imperfections.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    My bad. I'm a renter.

    Regardless, the point is that it's basically multiplying the current Tinsley problem.
    Not if their issue is to adjust JO's finacials and the current team culture. I get that Ford isn't your PG answer. He's your reduction of JO's contract that also helps mend the wound of moving Tinsley.

    I see the deal as a step toward where they want to be which will not involve Ford and probably won't involve Murphy, Ike and several others as well.

    Your future team is Danny, #11 pick, Dun maybe, Foster maybe and then whatever else you start putting together as of now. Ford gets injured for good, you clear cap space (and he's insured to cover his deal personally anyway). Ford plays 20 mpg for 2 years he has expriring deal value around the time Troy does too (and Dun perhaps).

    3 years from now Danny is the man (you hope, that's why you are sticking with him) and the other acquisitions have either matured (picks) or been worked into from other trades.


    I will agree that JO in his final year might be worth more and also fits into this rebuild for a few years plan. I don't love this deal but I don't hate it. If it's a PF that becomes a key guy AND a PG/SG that becomes a top 7 in that future rotation (guys like Speights and Chalmers) then you might as well get going now. And even more so if you are buying out Tins anyway.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Regardless, the point is that it's basically multiplying the current Tinsley problem.
    Can't disagree with that.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Not if their issue is to adjust JO's finacials and the current team culture. I get that Ford isn't your PG answer. He's your reduction of JO's contract that also helps mend the wound of moving Tinsley.

    I see the deal as a step toward where they want to be which will not involve Ford and probably won't involve Murphy, Ike and several others as well.

    Your future team is Danny, #11 pick, Dun maybe, Foster maybe and then whatever else you start putting together as of now. Ford gets injured for good, you clear cap space (and he's insured to cover his deal personally anyway). Ford plays 20 mpg for 2 years he has expriring deal value around the time Troy does too (and Dun perhaps).

    3 years from now Danny is the man (you hope, that's why you are sticking with him) and the other acquisitions have either matured (picks) or been worked into from other trades.


    I will agree that JO in his final year might be worth more and also fits into this rebuild for a few years plan. I don't love this deal but I don't hate it. If it's a PF that becomes a key guy AND a PG/SG that becomes a top 7 in that future rotation (guys like Speights and Chalmers) then you might as well get going now. And even more so if you are buying out Tins anyway.
    I agree that the team is treating Tinsley completely separate. They think of that as "gone money", which it almost certainly is. I believe they're working on two parallel paths:

    1. Try to improve/rebuild the team, including getting another pick, perhaps moving JO for a package they find acceptable while giving themselves some financial breathing room.

    2. Getting rid of Tinsley

    I believe, as far as the franchise is concerned, Tinsley is already gone. He won't ever play another game for us, and if they can find a more pallatable slug to take up his roster slot, they'll do it. Otherwise, I do think they will buy him out. He is a personna non grata as far as path 1 goes. (Naturally, they can't avoid the payroll ramifications, but they certainly can leave him out of the depth chart decisions.)

    And, as I've said before, I think Ford is an upgrade on Tinsley and consider the health risk acceptable in our given situation.

    Finally, while it is possible that JO's value could go up as his contract approaches it's end, the odds of him having another injury plagued season are high enough as to make it likely that his value will decline. I still believe he needs to play healthy and play well to enhance his value. If next year is a repeat of last year, then I'm not sure where the floor is.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Here's what I want:

    A) One Rasho/Wally-sized expiring
    B) One fairly paid player of value
    C) filler

    I really don't think that's unreasonable, regardless of JO's plummeting value. I mean, I wasn't in love with that Cleveland deal proposed earlier, but that was more in line with what we need.

    Becauset the number one -- and unconditional -- factor is that we take on no more problems.

    And, to me, TJ Ford is just another problem. It's basically refinancing your Tinsley mortgage on a guy with even less upside. He's another rigid asset that you can't move easilly because he's overpaid and locked up for multiple years. No GM in this league wants that anymore. Nor is he capable of playing over 30 mpg due to fragility and defensive liabilities. We wanna pay 8.5 for that for the next three years? Champ-ion-ship!
    Wow! 30 mpg? My Neon only gets around 27
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Where did this idea come from that Ford is limited to 30 minutes a night due to his injury? His minutes were limited this season for one reason and one reason alone - Jose Calderon. Ford's injury doesn't physically affect his play in any way, shape or form. It's just that another bad fall could end his career. And remember, if that were to happen, he has insurance.

    If we trade for the 25 year old Ford, it's with the intention of him becoming our long-term answer. He's too talented to be used as a "quick fix".

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown
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    Where did this idea come from that Ford is limited to 30 minutes a night due to his injury?
    I was basing it on his career average, not his injury.

    He's a defensive liability and can't be out there more than 35 mpg for any reason, with 30 mpg being more realistic for a contender. Essentially, he's more Fish/JWill/Jameer Nelson than Deron Williams/Gilbert/Chauncey in terms of how long you actually want him on the floor running your team.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBone
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    I wonder if we can really command the player of value-meaning no significant problems. Reason I say this is that JO may have reached the level where he, too, is perceived to be a highly-paid player of value but with problems. So it almost becomes the quandry of trading your problems, in this case of the physical variety, for someone else's player with certain perceived imperfections.
    When I say a "fairly paid player of value" I'm not talking about a great player. I'm talking about guys like Varejao, Foster, John Salmons, McDyess, Rafer, Matt Harpring or Kyle Korver.

    All I want is a fringe starter/decent rotation guy for around $5-6 million per. Asking for someone like that who has objective value at their salary along with "not long-term garbage contracts" shouldn't be too much for JO at this point I don't think.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 06-24-2008 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    I really like this deal.

    I would go either Speights-Chalmers, or Speights-Lopez in the draft. Chalmers could be a good backup for ford, he has all the opposite strengths. That would be a very strong PG tandem.

    Ford can be a great perimeter defender, he would only really have problems with the big strong PG's who will overpower him, In which case, you could put a stronger long guy like Chalmers on him. While Ford has blazing speed and athleticism, chalmers is a great jumpshooter. Ford can gaurd a quick guy, Chalmers can gaurd a big guy.

    With Ford's skills, it seems that he is fairly paid. He is not injury prone so much as he is a risk for a career ending injury. There is a difference. The insurance makes this a risk I think we can afford to take.

    I do not think JO will have more value as an expiring contract. In fact, that will probably create a situation where we will be taking back worse contracts than we are now, because a team looking to trade for a 23 million dollar expiring contract is trying to unload some contracts themselves.

    In that situation, it will probably make the most sense to let the contract expire... in which case, we lose him for nothing.

    The only way we get better value than this is if JO looks like the old JO for the beginning of next year and we make a deadline deal. Personally, I think we are seeing some surprisingly good deals here and I woulden't take the risk. If JO does not impress at the beginning of next year you can almost count on losing him for nothing.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 06-24-2008 at 01:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    I'd package #11 and #17 and move up into Love or Lopez range, if possible. I'd offer both and Marquis to Memphis for #5 and Cardinal.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    How the hell is a team going to take on a 23million expiring deal? Will we get anything valuable?

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    How the hell is a team going to take on a 23million expiring deal? Will we get anything valuable?
    That's a great question!

    There won't be many if any that will answer it. I'm waiting to see Walsh move Starbury's 22 mil expiring, unless it happens close to the Feb trade deadline after the Knicks have paid have his salary.

    Oh yeah, as I was so politely told that's a different situation, b/c JO is so much better than Starbury. Starbury is trash. LOL! Just don't hold your breath on an answer.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown View Post
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    I'd package #11 and #17 and move up into Love or Lopez range, if possible. I'd offer both and Marquis to Memphis for #5 and Cardinal.

    Personally, if we could keep 17 and maybe send them Diogu instead, that might be ideal.

    #11, Daniels, Diogu for Cardinal and #5.

    #5 could be Bayless, Love, or Lopez. I would be very happy with any of them.

    Bayless you could groom behind Ford and you could take Speights or R. Lopez at 17. Or you could take Love or B. Lopez and grab Chalmers to back up Ford.

    Love seems like the guy you would get... I was unsure about him, but I am starting to think he could be a great player for us. A surefire upgrade on murphy.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    #11, Daniels, Diogu for Cardinal and #5.
    Good luck with that.

    Who would want the #5 pick when they could get two border-line rotation players like Marquis and Ike for an entire season?

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Good luck with that.
    remember the gasol deal? Quisy is expiring (team option).

    Just remember this... Memphis desperatly wants to cut salary and Diogu has "potential"
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 06-24-2008 at 03:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    And as Bird and many other reports have stated, getting a mid-to-late First Round pick in this draft should not be overly difficult...so Chalmers could also be attainable otherwise if we're really sold on him (Jeff, Shawne or Diogu could get us at least in the 20-25 range, me reckons).
    i want to briefly revisit this... what deals do you see here?

    20 - Denver
    21 - Nets
    22 - Magic
    23 - Jazz
    24 - Sonics
    25 - Rockets

    all six of those teams would be interested in jeff but how do you make those deals work? how about diogu, which of those teams gives up a first for him? shawne?
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Personally, if we could keep 17 and maybe send them Diogu instead, that might be ideal.

    #11, Daniels, Diogu for Cardinal and #5.
    As I posted earlier today, the salaries don't match. If you substitued, Williams for Ike it will work.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    i want to briefly revisit this... what deals do you see here?

    20 - Denver
    21 - Nets
    22 - Magic
    23 - Jazz
    24 - Sonics
    25 - Rockets

    all six of those teams would be interested in jeff but how do you make those deals work? how about diogu, which of those teams gives up a first for him? shawne?
    Sloan isn't getting anyone at 23 he can use. How about Ronnie Price/Harpring/#23 for Foster/Shawne? Gives them AK/Korver/Shawne options at the SF -- all three of which are completely different looks. Foster gives them the interior defense they desperately need.

    The Magic would have to think about Cook/#22 for Diogu, I would think. It would give them a polished post scorer to complement Superman's raw shotblocking and rebounding, both of which would hide Ike's flaws. Plus it clears a year of Cook off the books for them (key for a team that needs to put something real together before Rashard turns into the biggest albatross in the League) and gives them get a year look at Ike and decide what to do. For us, Cook is water from 18 feet and could be a great 15 mpg player for JOB like Mark Blount was in Boston.

    Sonics have to be looking to move that pick. With Durant/Green/#4 they already have a young trio to build around so why not trade for a proven vet? Donyell Marshall/#24 for Foster could work. Something with Ridnour involved would also be nice for us.

    Houston would have to love Foster, me thinks. Bobby Jackson/#25 for Jeff would work. Or, to make things even better for us, throw in Aaron Brooks and Shawne on that deal too. A gamble boom/bust pick at 25 isn't doing much for them if they want to contend before the TMac Era ends.

    Diogu to Denver for Hunter/pick?

    I'm not saying any of these would happen. But they're all feasible options I came up with in about five minutes. I dunno that Bird would trade Jeff for a 20-25 pick. But the point is that he could do so and get us another pick if we really wanted it in multiple ways without needing to take back a bad (IMO) contract to do so.
    Last edited by JayRedd; 06-24-2008 at 05:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Nice work there, JR. I feel that those scenarios would work, if willing. I'm not sure how much effort the team is putting into moving any of the players besides Tins or JO, but I really hope something gets done before Thursday.

    Bird did say he wanted to make moves before then so they didn't disrupt the supposed draft plans.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Bird also said that #20 was about as low as he'd want to draft.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Bird also said that #20 was about as low as he'd want to draft.
    chalmers or lee?

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Bird also said that #20 was about as low as he'd want to draft.
    True. He also sounded like he'd give away Shawne for a bucket of balls though. I can't see him overly concerned about giving away a final year Diogu either.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    True. He also sounded like he'd give away Shawne for a bucket of balls though. I can't see him overly concerned about giving away a final year Diogu either.
    Sure it wasn't Tinsley he was referring to?

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    How about a Shawne or Ike + 41 for a high #2 so he could take Greene or DJ White? (Non-garaunteed contracts are nice too)
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