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Thread: Jermaine O'Neal heading to Toronto for T.J. Ford, #17 pick. Pacers get Baston, give up pick #41

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    No, UB. It is not human nature to jump back on. Once people sour to an experience and move on to another interest you've got a good chance that you've lost them for a very long time no matter what you do.

    I've worked quite a few jobs in the entertainment industry where these shifts in popularity are tracked and man the stats are really frightening. The American public is extremely fickle when it comes to this kind of thing. The most important concept to keep in mind is that fans are not actually reducing their attention or spending, what they are doing is shifting their attention and spending elsewhere. In the case of the Pacers, the fans that have left are doing something else with their money and it will take a very big event to get them to come back.

    Think of the Pacers like an ex-girlfriend that cheated on her boyfriend. It's probably easier to get a new boyfriend than it is to convince the old boyfriend to dump his new girl and take you back.

    SO - what that means is that the fan base must be rebuilt from scratch. In order to do that, you need to improve the game environment, win games, and get good headlines for a couple of playoff years.

    Next regular season may be worse than this one in terms of attendance nomatter who is on the team.

    It will take quite a while.

    Interesting take.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    If we're going to trade JO to get TJ, we should get rid of JT before he pulls an OJ.
    Nice job.

    Stupid Flanders.

  3. #178
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9177

    O'Neal for Ford a Win-Win

    By: Joel Brigham

    As is customary in the days leading up to an NBA Draft, the trade rumors are really starting circulate. This year's first big rumor centers around the sending Jermaine O'Neal to the Toronto Raptors in exchange for T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, and possibly Toronto's 17th pick in this Thursday's draft.

    Why This Works for the Pacers

    Giving away the team's franchise player over the last decade isn't going to be an easy deal to swallow for Pacers fans, but Indy clearly is ready for rebuilding and JO's giant contract ($44 million over the next two seasons) isn't going to make that easy. Nesterovic is an $8 million expiring contract, perhaps giving the team some flexibility in the upcoming years when it comes to the free agent market.

    More importantly, however, it finally gives the Pacers a credible point guard to replace Jamaal Tinsley, who has been terribly unreliable and inconsistent in recent years with the Pacers. Ford wants to get out of the competition with Jose Calderon in Canada and find a place where he can start. Indy certainly would be a fabulous opportunity for him. He'd be on a relatively young team that will struggle, but at least he'll get his playing time.

    Getting a point guard in trade could be key for this move since it's looking more and more like there will be no point guards left for the Pacers to take when they select 11th this Thursday. With four point guards likely going in the top 10 selections, it doesn't seem like they will get the guy they want. Ford is a more certain commodity, anyway. Not only that, but two top-20 draft picks is always something to be excited about.

    Why This Works for the Raptors

    Raps GM Bryan Colangelo can get something of substantial value for the disgruntled Ford, who probably would only be cancerous if he remains on the roster without getting what he feels is his due in terms of minutes.

    Even though O'Neal has been injured a lot the last couple of season (he played only 42 games in 2007-2008), he still holds a ton of value when healthy, and it's unlikely the Raptors could cash Ford out for any bigger a name. With all the wheeling and dealing that went down last season, O'Neal is one of the few superstars still actually on the trading block.

    The Raptors would be silly not to pair him up with Chris Bosh and see if that doesn't push them over the hump in an improving Eastern Conference. Danny Ainge proved last year that gambles on star players can pay off. It would require a hefty financial investment by Toronto to pull this off, but it also could make them one of the favorites in the East if JO is healthy.

    The move certainly doesn't make either team significantly worse, making the relative "gamble" for both organizations one worth investigating very seriously.

  4. #179
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by circlecitysportsfan View Post
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    Does anybody remember the season opener a few yrs back vs the Bucks? TJ Ford was flat out amazing that game. If he's still on that level I'd love to have him.
    That's what I always think of when Ford comes up. It was his first game as a rookie, and after the game I said, "Should I be concerned he looked better against the Pacers than he had 8 months earlier against Purdue?"
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Wasn't Tinsley good too once?

  6. #181
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by iPACER View Post
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    Wasn't Tinsley good too once?
    Ironically, it was the season opener. This season.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Ironically, it was the season opener. This season.
    Tinsley looked good his rookie year including a triple double against Jordan's Wizards, right?

    And too think it's been down hill since...

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    After going through only about 5 pages of this thread, I have a few thoughts and questions for most of you:

    1 ) For all those that don't want Augustin for one reason or another......are you concerned about getting the NBA ready version of him ( that he is most compared to ) that not only is as short as he is but has injury concerns and a huge contract attached to him?

    2 ) Much like how the Raptors COULD be using this to put pressure on the Suns to make a deal with them....assuming that there is some validity to the JO to Cavs rumors....does anyone else think that this could be a way for TPTB to put pressure on the Cavs to accept a deal involving JO for Varajeo/Z/19 ( instead of the rumored Varajeo/Wally/19 pick )?

    3 ) Is TPTB so sure that they will move Tinsley and his 3 year / $21 mil contract that they would be willing to take on another PG that is potentially as injured and as great of a defensive liability? This is the one thing that has not been discussed here or any other thread......unless there is some buyout in place....I find it very difficult to believe that Tinsley can easily be moved in the offseason.

    4 ) If this Toronto trade were to go through.....here's a quick look at the financial situation IF JONeal is moved to Toronto while receiving Moon/Baston and the 17th pick as filler:

    2008-2009 season

    Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
    - Harrison
    - Kareem
    - Flip

    Guaranteed Contracts for the 2008-2009 season
    - Granger
    - Ike
    - Tinsley
    - Foster
    - Marquis
    - Dunleavy
    - Shawne
    - Graham
    - Diener
    - Murphy
    - Ford ( from Toronto )
    - Rasho ( from Toronto )
    - Baston / Moon ( from Toronto )

    Expiring Contract AFTER the 2008-2009 season
    - Foster ( Expiring )
    - Marquis ( Expiring )
    - Rasho ( Expiring from Toronto )
    - Baston / Moon ( Expiring from Toronto )
    - About $20-22 mil in 2008-2009 Expiring Contracts.


    Total Guaranteed Salary for 2008-2009 for 13 players ( does not including signing of 2008-2009 Draft picks )
    - $64.17 mil ( with Moon ) or $65.43 mil ( with Baston )


    2009-2010 season

    Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
    - Granger ( Qualifying Offer )
    - Ike ( Qualifying Offer )
    - Marquis ( Team Option )

    Guaranteed Contracts for 2009-2010
    - Tinsley
    - Dunleavy
    - Shawne
    - Diener
    - Murphy
    - Ford ( from Toronto )
    - 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 11th pick
    - 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 17th pick


    Total Guaranteed Salary for 2009-2010 for 8 players
    - $40.96 mil + whatever is owed to the 2008 11th and 17th picks

    Based on the assumption that Tinsley won't be moved ( or we get back a player with a similar Contract with some unknown trade ), our Salary cap for the 2009-2010 season would be about $41 mil...which should be enough breathing room for us to not only resign Granger....which is a likely imperative....and Ike ( if there is a need to do so ) but to also give us some options to sign some Free Agents to continue the rebuilding/retooling process to fix whatever holes we need filling, allow us to get involved in some 3rd Team trades and take care of whatever future resigning that we need for the 2010-2011 season ( as in Shawne ).

    Of course...I could be off on some of my Salary calculations.....but you can see that moving JONeal to Toronto would allow us some financial flexibility for the future ( most notably resigning Granger ) while allowing us to continue ( as Seth suggests ) our 2 year rebuilding/retooling plan for the future.

    5 ) If I had a choice between Ford/Rasho/17 and the Varajeo/Z/19 trade....I would want the Varajeo/Z/19 pick. If I were forced to go with a very small PG that can run the point...I would much rather have Augustin and his smaller contract, a very solid Frontcourt that can help with the Offensive Rebounds ( which is VERY important given the sheer # of FGA that we take and miss ) while getting another younger version of Foster for the future and a True Center that is not a complete Offensive liability.

    Interestingly enough......IF the Varajeo/Z/19th pick was an option ( which is my preferable choice )......in the 2009-2010 season....we would have about $43 mil in guaranteed contracts owed ( not including whatever is owed to the 11th and 19th picks ) to resign Granger, Ike ( who I doubt we resign ) and Varajeo. Having about $21 mil in Salary cap space to resign players should IMHO be enough to resign Granger and Varajeo.
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  9. #184
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    doesn't Z have feet issues?

    I'd more like a youth movement.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    I skipped to the end of the thread so maybe someone has already broght this up. Isn't the one that said trading to get Artest again wasn't such a bad idea?

    Personally, I think this is all just a gimick to get Kegboy out of his apathetic malaise where the Pacers are concerned.

  11. #186
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks

  12. #187
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    After going through only about 5 pages of this thread, I have a few thoughts and questions for most of you:

    1 ) For all those that don't want Augustin for one reason or another......are you concerned about getting the NBA ready version of him ( that he is most compared to ) that not only is as short as he is but has injury concerns and a huge contract attached to him?
    I'm fine with Augustin, but I would go with Ford (including his injury risk) because he's a more proven commodity in terms of being able to play in the NBA. As far as the contract and injury history goes, I don't compare it to Augustin, rather I compare it to JO's. Ford's "HUGE" contract is only $1.8mm more over three years than JO's is in the final year of his contract.

    2 ) Much like how the Raptors COULD be using this to put pressure on the Suns to make a deal with them....assuming that there is some validity to the JO to Cavs rumors....does anyone else think that this could be a way for TPTB to put pressure on the Cavs to accept a deal involving JO for Varajeo/Z/19 ( instead of the rumored Varajeo/Wally/19 pick )?
    I think it's likely that the leaks are coming because FO's are leaky places, and there's too much juice for this to be quiet. That being said, I think TPTB would be relatively pleased to see this kind of price be laid out for JO and could be hoping for better offers. Cleveland could be one of those teams if, as has been rumored, they've been flirting with us, but offering packages that include Wally/Snow.

    3 ) Is TPTB so sure that they will move Tinsley and his 3 year / $21 mil contract that they would be willing to take on another PG that is potentially as injured and as great of a defensive liability? This is the one thing that has not been discussed here or any other thread......unless there is some buyout in place....I find it very difficult to believe that Tinsley can easily be moved in the offseason.
    I believe that Tinsley is not being factored into any plans whatsoever for TPTB regarding who they get. They know they owe him $21 mil, and I'm sure they consider that "gone money". I expect them to exhaust every possibility to deal him for what will probably end up being an equal contract, and, failing that, the may buy him out (though I don't necessarily think that is prudent). All that said, I do not believe they consider him in the least to be in the mix at the point guard position. This deal would bring back a veteran PG and a second 1st round pick, both prime targets of TPTB. Is there risk involved with Ford? Yes, but probably no less than with JO, and it breaks up the finances rather nicely.

    4 ) If this Toronto trade were to go through.....here's a quick look at the financial situation IF JONeal is moved to Toronto while receiving Moon/Baston and the 17th pick as filler:

    2008-2009 season

    Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
    - Harrison
    - Kareem
    - Flip

    Guaranteed Contracts for the 2008-2009 season
    - Granger
    - Ike
    - Tinsley
    - Foster
    - Marquis
    - Dunleavy
    - Shawne
    - Graham
    - Diener
    - Murphy
    - Ford ( from Toronto )
    - Rasho ( from Toronto )
    - Baston / Moon ( from Toronto )

    Expiring Contract AFTER the 2008-2009 season
    - Foster ( Expiring )
    - Marquis ( Expiring )
    - Rasho ( Expiring from Toronto )
    - Baston / Moon ( Expiring from Toronto )
    - About $20-22 mil in 2008-2009 Expiring Contracts.


    Total Guaranteed Salary for 2008-2009 for 13 players ( does not including signing of 2008-2009 Draft picks )
    - $64.17 mil ( with Moon ) or $65.43 mil ( with Baston )


    2009-2010 season

    Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
    - Granger ( Qualifying Offer )
    - Ike ( Qualifying Offer )
    - Marquis ( Team Option )

    Guaranteed Contracts for 2009-2010
    - Tinsley
    - Dunleavy
    - Shawne
    - Diener
    - Murphy
    - Ford ( from Toronto )
    - 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 11th pick
    - 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 17th pick


    Total Guaranteed Salary for 2009-2010 for 8 players
    - $40.96 mil + whatever is owed to the 2008 11th and 17th picks

    Based on the assumption that Tinsley won't be moved ( or we get back a player with a similar Contract with some unknown trade ), our Salary cap for the 2009-2010 season would be about $41 mil...which should be enough breathing room for us to not only resign Granger....which is a likely imperative....and Ike ( if there is a need to do so ) but to also give us some options to sign some Free Agents to continue the rebuilding/retooling process to fix whatever holes we need filling, allow us to get involved in some 3rd Team trades and take care of whatever future resigning that we need for the 2010-2011 season ( as in Shawne ).

    Of course...I could be off on some of my Salary calculations.....but you can see that moving JONeal to Toronto would allow us some financial flexibility for the future ( most notably resigning Granger ) while allowing us to continue ( as Seth suggests ) our 2 year rebuilding/retooling plan for the future.

    5 ) If I had a choice between Ford/Rasho/17 and the Varajeo/Z/19 trade....I would want the Varajeo/Z/19 pick. If I were forced to go with a very small PG that can run the point...I would much rather have Augustin and his smaller contract, a very solid Frontcourt that can help with the Offensive Rebounds ( which is VERY important given the sheer # of FGA that we take and miss ) while getting another younger version of Foster for the future and a True Center that is not a complete Offensive liability.

    Interestingly enough......IF the Varajeo/Z/19th pick was an option ( which is my preferable choice )......in the 2009-2010 season....we would have about $43 mil in guaranteed contracts owed ( not including whatever is owed to the 11th and 19th picks ) to resign Granger, Ike ( who I doubt we resign ) and Varajeo. Having about $21 mil in Salary cap space to resign players should IMHO be enough to resign Granger and Varajeo.
    The Varajeo/Z/19 would actually put us at about $50mm in guaranteed salaries in 2009-2010, not $43million. It' s not a huge difference, but in that season, the Toronto deal brings us $8.3mm (Ford), while Z & Sideshow Bob combine for about $17.8mm in the Cleveland deal. The $7 mm is more than a full MLE, so it could mean a player.

    On the whole, I don't like the Cleveland deal as well as the Toronto deal because I believe the utility and potential of Ford is much better than Z & Varejao...enough to make up for the risk involved. Also, Ford's 3yr contract is only $2.4mm more than Z's 2yr contract.

    I would also love to see us take a big (Speights, Ajinca) at #11, then come back and hedge our bets with Chalmers at #17.

    And, quite frankly, for filler, I like Nesterovic better than Z as a fit for the franchise next season. Neither is a long-term solution, but Rasho is serviceable and can play a little D. You have to ask if Z would be far too plodding to get a lot of burn in JOB's system, which, like it or not, will dictate next season.

    I definitely like the Toronto Ford/Rasho/17 much better than anything I've heard from Cleveland.

  13. #188
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks
    so are you open to trade Jermaine to Ron Ron?

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    Post Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    This rumor is posted in espn.com !!!!! http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3457325

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks
    So you're interested in ....


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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacemaker View Post
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    This rumor is posted in espn.com !!!!! http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3457325
    So its dead.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    So its dead.
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  18. #193

    Default Other thoughts on Pacers/Toronto Trade

    http://www.1070thefan.com/pacers/blo...tryID=10001871

    Can anybody find any other related stories?

    I'm still not 100% sold on this deal.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Stick a fork in it.
    Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

  20. #195

    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Why oh why do the Pacers do this trade?

    I mean, why do people act like we HAVE to get rid of Jermaine? We don't. Sure it could be nice for both the Pacers and Jermaine. Maybe Larry doesn't like Jermaine but that doesn't mean you can make a bad trade.

    Look this trade does NOT help our salary situation. Jermaine's contract runs two more years. That isn't very long at all.

    In this particular trade we are going to be left with TJ Ford and Jamaal Tinsley as our point guards? That is a lot of money for two average NBA point guards.

    I do really like Ford but between his contract, lack of defense, injury concern, and the fact that we still have Jamaal (unless he is traded somehow or bought out) that is a bad trade.

    We are better off to just draft DJ Augistin. I think that DJ can be ATLEAST as good as TJ is. Plus he is much cheaper so in the event that we can't trade Jamaal or don't buy him out at least we aren't paying a backup point guard 6+ million a year.

    I'm not against trading Jermaine but this just isn't the right deal at all. If we are able to get rid of Jamaal, maybe this Toronto trade wouldn't be so bad depending on exactly who we get. But as of right now I don't like it one bit.

  21. #196
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    Why oh why do the Pacers do this trade?

    I mean, why do people act like we HAVE to get rid of Jermaine? We don't. Sure it could be nice for both the Pacers and Jermaine. Maybe Larry doesn't like Jermaine but that doesn't mean you can make a bad trade.

    Look this trade does NOT help our salary situation. Jermaine's contract runs two more years. That isn't very long at all.

    In this particular trade we are going to be left with TJ Ford and Jamaal Tinsley as our point guards? That is a lot of money for two average NBA point guards.

    I do really like Ford but between his contract, lack of defense, injury concern, and the fact that we still have Jamaal (unless he is traded somehow or bought out) that is a bad trade.

    We are better off to just draft DJ Augistin. I think that DJ can be ATLEAST as good as TJ is. Plus he is much cheaper so in the event that we can't trade Jamaal or don't buy him out at least we aren't paying a backup point guard 6+ million a year.

    I'm not against trading Jermaine but this just isn't the right deal at all. If we are able to get rid of Jamaal, maybe this Toronto trade wouldn't be so bad depending on exactly who we get. But as of right now I don't like it one bit.
    Tinsley is a completely separate situation. I'm sure they're looking at moving him, but probably recognize that this is spent money.

    This trade does help our salary situation. If it's done with minimal filler (consummated later this summer), it would allow us to have 15 players on the roster and stay under the likely luxury tax threshhold.

    If the fillers are expirings, like Moon or Baston, then if the team lets Rasho and the filler walk at the end of next season, we'd have $12-13 million less in contracts in 2009-2010.

    Yes, we would be signed on for $8.3 mm on Ford in 2010-2011, which would bump our guaranteed contracts that year, we have significant room (at this point).

    Again, I don't think they're going to try to attach Droopy to any JO deal. While I agree that we don't have to move JO, this is good value for him, particularly if Ford stays healthy.

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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks
    Is Z's slowness that bad that he couldn't fit into the offense/defense in some way?

    Getting Z and Varajeo would mean that we would significantly improve our offensive rebounding....something that I think is as important in the type of "shoot and likely miss as many shots as we can" offense. The more offensive rebounders we have on the floor...the better chance we have at getting 2nd chance opportunities when we miss the many FGs that we attempt.

    If anything....having a frontcourt of Murphy/Foster/Z/Varajeo would allow us some flexibility to spread out the # of minutes evenly among the 4 of them at the PF/C rotation while allowing us to matchup well against other teams.

    As much of a benefit there is to getting a true PG that can properly run the show like Ford.....I can see as much benefit to have a very solid Frontcourt if not more durable one that completely dominates on the offensive rebounding end.
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    The Varajeo/Z/19 would actually put us at about $50mm in guaranteed salaries in 2009-2010, not $43million. It' s not a huge difference, but in that season, the Toronto deal brings us $8.3mm (Ford), while Z & Sideshow Bob combine for about $17.8mm in the Cleveland deal. The $7 mm is more than a full MLE, so it could mean a player.
    Varajeo has a Player option in the 2009-2010 season....I'm going under the assumption that he will likely opt out since he wasn't too happy about being matched by the Cavs when he became a Restricted FA in the 2007-2008 season. My hope is that we resign him...worse comes to worse....he just becomes another Expiring Contract after the 2009-2010 season if we can't resign him.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  24. #199
    Member PR07's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    This isn't the best trade for JO, but I'd be okay with it.

    I highly doubt the Pacers would still draft DJ Augustin though. What's the point in having 2 diminutive PG's? More than likely, they'd take Speights or Anthony Randolph at #11, and Chalmers at #17.

  25. #200
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: JO to Toronto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Too slow on the draw ABADays! I couldn't let that one slip by when I saw it
    It's the time difference I tell ya.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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