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Thread: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

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    Default JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    From RealGM
    http://www.realgm.net/src_wiretap_ar...to_fit_system/

    Jun 17, 2008 4:12 PM EST
    Pacers' Coach Jim O'Brien said on Tuesday that the team isn't necessarily looking for players who fit well into their offensive system, according to The Indianapolis Star.

    "We're looking for athleticism, speed, durability, strength, mental toughness," O'Brien said. "I think everybody in the league is looking for the same thing. A little bit of an understanding of how much they know about the game from a basketball I.Q., how they follow instructions, see how they adjust to a little criticism."

    Indiana has matched players up one-on-one to gauge their desire on the court.

    "We try to fatigue all of these guys pretty aggressively when they're playing one-on-one, so we see how they react to having somebody try to whoop them at the end of the session," O'Brien said. "When somebody's fatigued and four guys are playing one-on-one and you're keeping score, you can pretty much rank the guys on who had a bigger desire to win."===========================

    That is interesting how they work that.
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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    what...no love for the 3pt shot?

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    I notice he mentioned athleticism first. Seems to me that's something this team seriously lacks, to the point that when Jamaal was healthy last year, he'd try to get us into this hurry up offense, and there'd be nobody to pass the ball to once he got it into the frontcourt, because everybody else couldn't keep up.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    In other words:

    We are looking for the anti-Tinsley.


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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    I notice he mentioned athleticism first. Seems to me that's something this team seriously lacks, to the point that when Jamaal was healthy last year, he'd try to get us into this hurry up offense, and there'd be nobody to pass the ball to once he got it into the frontcourt, because everybody else couldn't keep up.
    That's probably because when they looked up the floor, they couldn't really believe that was Tinsley.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Not to sound overly bitter, but I'm not necessarily looking for a team that fits JOB's system.

    That said, I appreciate that he's doing what he can with what he has.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    I think he had that system last year, just to try to get a lot more wins and make the playoffs. I think next season will be different
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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Let's see, players who wouldn't fit JOB's system would be able to a) play tenacious defense, b) rebound on the offensive glass, and c) take the ball to the hole instead of chuck a 3 as soon as they clear the 10-second line. Actually, that sounds like the kind of team I'd like to see. Hmmm?

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by madison View Post
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    Let's see, players who wouldn't fit JOB's system would be able to a) play tenacious defense, b) rebound on the offensive glass, and c) take the ball to the hole instead of chuck a 3 as soon as they clear the 10-second line. Actually, that sounds like the kind of team I'd like to see. Hmmm?
    To a certain extent, I accept the fact that you're going to hate whatever the Pacers do just because they're doing it.

    That being said, I think you're off on A and B here. I know it's hard to get team stats now that NBA.com has completed its yearly ritual of trashing the functionality of its website, but you can get the stats at yahoo.com and they don't support your argument.
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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Considering JOB has preached defense since the moment he was hired. I don't think that is very fair.

    Lets see, Its going to be hard to have a good defensive team when, diener, murphy, and dunleavy all start together.

    I mean, just replace one of those guys with a good defender and our defense gets way better. Three sub-par defenders together at the same time is suicide.

    Cant blame the coach for the roster.
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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Lets see, Its going to be hard to have a good defensive team when, diener, murphy, and dunleavy all start together.

    I mean, just replace one of those guys with a good defender and our defense gets way better. Three sub-par defenders together at the same time is suicide.

    Cant blame the coach for the roster.
    It's interesting you say this. I think it's about desire, and I don't think Murphy or Dunleavy have the desire to play defense. Diener does, but I think he'll always be battling size.

    We had three sub-par defenders in the late 90s with the same exact defensive scheme; Jackson, Mullin, and Smits. But it didn't stop that team from being good.

    I'm glad that O'Brien isn't looking for players to fit his system. They should be looking to take the best player available (even if it's a SF). But, I would hope they are taking permiter defense into consideration.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    I was of the understanding that it is the poor lateral quickness of murphy and dunleavy that makes them poor defenders. This being the reason they get beat off the dribble all the time.

    Also, that 90s team was very smart, and it seems that the current team struggled at times to follow the defensive schemes, which further amplified the individual shortcomings. This is one area where Danny struggled at times.

    I don't think it is the same system, Harter is running something slightly different now. Maybe Unclebuck can explain it better than I can.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 06-19-2008 at 01:58 AM.
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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Anthem, let's tread lightly on getting personal. I don't think that adds anything productive to the discourse. I attended 30+ games. What I reported is what I saw. I don't like JOB's philosophy. That's my right. It's also OK if you do. That's your right. The fact that I don't like the run-and-gun game doesn't make me a Pacer hater. Maybe a Phoenix Suns hater, but not a Pacer hater. It's true I don't care for the direction that this team seems to be going. Again, that doesn't make me a Pacers hater. Chill out, man. You're not my guardian.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    In the NBA, you draft to fit the system. It works 9 times out of 10. Look at the Spurs, the Raptors, Pistons, etc.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I was of the understanding that it is the poor lateral quickness of murphy and dunleavy that makes them poor defenders. This being the reason they get beat off the dribble all the time.

    They are, but Dunleavy is quicker than an aging Chris Mullin, Murphy is quicker than an aging Rik Smits, and Tinsley is quicker than an aging Mark Jackson.

    It is partly about the intelligence, but I think even O'Brien said in one of the end of season interviews that the players need to have the desire to play good defense. I can't think of any other reason the Pacers of 10 years ago were significantly better than today's team.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    They are, but Dunleavy is quicker than an aging Chris Mullin, Murphy is quicker than an aging Rik Smits, and Tinsley is quicker than an aging Mark Jackson.

    It is partly about the intelligence, but I think even O'Brien said in one of the end of season interviews that the players need to have the desire to play good defense. I can't think of any other reason the Pacers of 10 years ago were significantly better than today's team.
    Dale Davis? Antonio Davis? Derrick McKey? Travis best?

    The Pacers of 10 years ago were jumpshooters, but they also had plenty of guys that could do the dirty work to allow the Mark Jacksons and Reggie Millers to shine.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-20-2008 at 01:55 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Dale Davis? Antonio Davis? Derrick McKey? Travis best?

    The Pacers of 10 years ago were jumpshooters, but they also had plenty of guys that could do the dirty work to allow the Mark Jacksons and Reggie Millers to shine.
    I thought we were talking about defense?

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I thought we were talking about defense?
    ...and none of those guys were known as tough defenders?

    There were enough tough defensive players on Indiana to allow Mark Jackson to be beaten off the dribble every other play, and still be respectable.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    I agree that the guys you listed were tough defenders. But when 3/5 of your starting lineup contains Jackson, Mullin, and Smits, you can put them out there with Mutombo and Payton and it won't guarantee that you have a good defensive team.

    Yet here are the 97-98 Pacers, with that starting lineup and the 5th ranked defense. 10 years later, an arguably similar system, and a defense that ranks 26th in the league.

    And you have a team that is now arguably quicker on paper, but guess what one of the biggest differences is between the two teams? The 97-98 ranked first in 3 PT FG% defense, and the 07-08 Pacers ranked 29th (next to last). That to me says it's about more than ability and intelligence.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    And you have a team that is now arguably quicker on paper, but guess what one of the biggest differences is between the two teams? The 97-98 ranked first in 3 PT FG% defense, and the 07-08 Pacers ranked 29th (next to last). That to me says it's about more than ability and intelligence.
    Again, you have Derrick McKey, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis, Travis Best, and a young Jalen Rose when he was still interested in playing defense.

    Stop looking at just the starting 5. It's silly. At least two of those guys were almost always on the floor in crunch time, because of their ability to play defense.

    The Pacers of the late 90's weren't even the same system as Obie's not even close.
    That was a ball-control team that played its best defense by forcing the other team to take the ball out from under its own basket. They out-executed people.

    Obie's system is chuck-and-run territory. They don't get quality shots, nor do they have a lot of quality shooters. THey don't force the other team to score in the halfcourt, and they don't have physical bangers to make the other team think twice about taking it inside.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Again, you have Derrick McKey, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis, Travis Best, and a young Jalen Rose when he was still interested in playing defense.

    Stop looking at just the starting 5. It's silly. At least two of those guys were almost always on the floor in crunch time, because of their ability to play defense.
    Okay, let's look at minutes played. 1-3 Miller, Jackson, Smits, with McKey getting Flip Murray minutes, Best and Rose getting Diener minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The Pacers of the late 90's weren't even the same system as Obie's not even close.
    That was a ball-control team that played its best defense by forcing the other team to take the ball out from under its own basket. They out-executed people.
    From under its own basket? % aren't that much different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Obie's system is chuck-and-run territory. They don't get quality shots, nor do they have a lot of quality shooters. THey don't force the other team to score in the halfcourt, and they don't have physical bangers to make the other team think twice about taking it inside.
    Outside of the Davis', I fail to see who the physical bangers were. It's all beside the point though. Like I said, the biggest difference between the two teams (statistically) is the opponents' three point shooting.

    Anyone here disagree that Dunleavy is quicker than Mullin? Tinsley/Flip quicker than Jackson? Granger quicker than Reggie (maybe)? So why are they failing to close out as well as the 98 team? It isn't speed, and it isn't inside toughness. As a Pistons fan, you should defintely be able to see both sides of desire.
    Last edited by imawhat; 06-20-2008 at 03:51 AM.

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    Default Re: JOB speaks..Not necessarily looking for players that fit his system

    From under its own basket? % aren't that much different.
    Inbounding the ball from under your own basket against a set defense isn't that much different than getting a steal or a rebound and setting up in transition? You gotta be kidding me.

    You also have to stop comparing the quickness of each player. Defense isn't always about that. In fact, it usually isn't.

    the Pacers in 1998 had an offense that allowed them to play excellent defense. They could use up a lot of clock and make the other team play defense for 18-20 seconds every posession instead of firing up quick shots.

    In addition to that, they shot a much better percentage, turned the ball over less, and took half as many threes, which leads to half as many long rebounds.
    Last edited by Kstat; 06-20-2008 at 01:57 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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