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Thread: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I think all 5 of these are very interesting.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart


    Analyzing the trade market

    Nothing says summer like NBA trade rumors, so as long as the Pacers are talking

    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com

    Let the trade talk begin.

    NBA front office officials are deep into their draft preparations, but they're never too busy to explore trade scenarios that might improve their teams.

    Larry Bird likely is involved in several such conversations. The Pacers president has the daunting challenge of trying to fix a team that has missed the past two playoffs but lacks cap space to significantly improve through free agency. He's relying on the draft and potential trades to climb back into playoff contention.

    It's no secret trading Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley top the Pacers' wish list. The problem, however, is teams aren't calling Bird on a daily basis trying to swing a deal for either player, particularly Tinsley.

    But that won't stop the rumors and Internet chatter this summer.

    So tune out the noise and consider five potential trades that make sense:

    1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd: O'Neal had his best season in 2003-04 playing for Rick Carlisle, now the Mavericks coach, and Dallas needs a low-post scorer. The early results on the Kidd experiment in Dallas weren't positive, but his addition not only would solve the Pacers' point guard problem immediately, it also would allow the 35-year-old to mentor their first-round pick, if they decide to go that route. Kidd will make $21.4 million in the final year of his contract.

    2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry: The Pacers were atrocious at stopping dribble penetration last season. Lowry solves that. He's the tough, defensive-minded point guard the Pacers need to shore up the position. The Grizzlies have a surplus of young point guards in Lowry, Mike Conley Jr. and Javaris Crittenton and are trying to figure out what to do. The Pacers have a surplus of wing players and could part with Williams, who is from Memphis and starred there in college.

    3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich: Hinrich's future in Chicago is cloudy, particularly if the Bulls select Derrick Rose in the draft. Hinrich has defensive issues but has averaged 6.4 assists and shoots 41 percent. Diogu never worked his way into the rotation after tearing his left calf early in the season.

    4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin: All-Stars Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson need a sidekick in Denver who can score in the low post. Camby will block shots and rebound -- 13.3 a game last season. Martin's injury problems -- he played only two games in the 2006-07 season -- and his contract -- three more years with a player option on the third year -- could worry the Pacers.

    5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: Don't cringe. The Pacers have admitted they lost their toughness when they traded Artest in 2006. O'Neal said then he no longer could play with Artest, but that wouldn't be an issue in this deal. The self-proclaimed Tru Warier should be on his best behavior next season because he'll be in the final year of his contract, and he's yet to land a major new deal. He can start at power forward. Miller, also a former Pacer, is used to playing in a pass-oriented offensive system.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I think all of them would be good trades as stand alone. The Sactown one is obviously absurd I think just based on previously burned bridges and the whole off-court environment currently.

    All the rest could be good in certain contexts. The Kidd one seems fraught with conditions. Will Dallas have enough PG depth left and/or be willing to acquire more? Would Kidd be content playing on a likely borderline playoff team at best? If we draft a point, he would serve the mentor role well though.

    I think I like the Memphis one best. Lowry is an experienced yet young, hard-nosed, defensive minded PG. He's a guy I'm extremely interested in. Heck, if you could really swing the Chicago move, bring in both Lowry and Hinrich to strengthen the guard rotation, then look big in the draft.

    Camby would be a nice addition to our team defensively. However, he's got his own injury reputation. More importantly, Kenyon Martin is a tough pill to swallow.
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    1 and 5 I wouldn't agree to. #1 makes sense if only to get JOs contract off the books a year earlier. But Kidd looked old after his trade to Dallas, and his numbers at this point aren't much better than Tinsleys. As for #5...remember the reaction John Starks got when he was traded to the Bulls?
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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Each of those deals, particularly #5 would be good. I am certain it would be difficult for the Simons to stomach #5, however.

    Edit: On second thought, I don't think I could stomach it either...even though I love Artest's game. Ok, maybe #1 or #3 is a perfect trade, then we draft Westbrook to see if he can follow up at PG.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 06-08-2008 at 09:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think all 5 of these are very interesting.

    1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd: O'Neal had his best season in 2003-04 playing for Rick Carlisle, now the Mavericks coach, and Dallas needs a low-post scorer. The early results on the Kidd experiment in Dallas weren't positive, but his addition not only would solve the Pacers' point guard problem immediately, it also would allow the 35-year-old to mentor their first-round pick, if they decide to go that route. Kidd will make $21.4 million in the final year of his contract.
    I don't like this one. Outside of rookie contracts, which are restricted, there aren't many good free agents out there. O'Neal's contract expires in 2010, and he might have his highest value after a strong, healthy year with an expiring contract.

    2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry: The Pacers were atrocious at stopping dribble penetration last season. Lowry solves that. He's the tough, defensive-minded point guard the Pacers need to shore up the position. The Grizzlies have a surplus of young point guards in Lowry, Mike Conley Jr. and Javaris Crittenton and are trying to figure out what to do. The Pacers have a surplus of wing players and could part with Williams, who is from Memphis and starred there in college.
    I like this deal on paper, but I'd rather have DJ Augustine and Shawne Williams. Also, I don't see Memphis taking this deal because it seems whenever Williams is linked to trouble it's with someone from the city of Memphis.

    With Rudy Gay, Mike Miller and the in and out Hakim Warrick, they have enough SF-types.

    3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich: Hinrich's future in Chicago is cloudy, particularly if the Bulls select Derrick Rose in the draft. Hinrich has defensive issues but has averaged 6.4 assists and shoots 41 percent. Diogu never worked his way into the rotation after tearing his left calf early in the season.
    I can't see Chicago doing this. No way. Daniels and Diogu have little value at this point, and I'm betting there are a number of teams who see Hinrich as a good system away from being really good again after a bad year.

    4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin: All-Stars Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson need a sidekick in Denver who can score in the low post. Camby will block shots and rebound -- 13.3 a game last season. Martin's injury problems -- he played only two games in the 2006-07 season -- and his contract -- three more years with a player option on the third year -- could worry the Pacers.
    No. Trading O'Neal would seem to me to be about cap relief or talent acquisition. This doesn't accomplish that.

    5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: Don't cringe. The Pacers have admitted they lost their toughness when they traded Artest in 2006. O'Neal said then he no longer could play with Artest, but that wouldn't be an issue in this deal. The self-proclaimed Tru Warier should be on his best behavior next season because he'll be in the final year of his contract, and he's yet to land a major new deal. He can start at power forward. Miller, also a former Pacer, is used to playing in a pass-oriented offensive system.
    I was never in favor of trading Artest to begin with. He had done very little wrong off the court, aside from being with that psycho chick who terrorized her neighborhood as well as him. I'm of the opinion had they dealt Jackson to begin with and dealt Tinsley when his value was at its highest--the off-season after the brawl--Artest would be having a great career alongside O'Neal.

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    Member jeffg-body's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Some of these ideas are pretty good for both teams, which will need to be the issue. #5 really intrigues me, but could the Simons have the kahoonas to pull the trigger on an Artest reunion?

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    Member Erik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I love #3, and find #5 very interesting.

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    The only one I might see as viable is trade number two and it's not even THAT much viable as Memphis does have some nice wing players aswell.

    1. I don't see Dallas trading Kidd this fast and def. not for an often injured PF with an absurd salary oh whose going to play PG in Dallas? And don't tell me Terry is.

    3. Chicago would be NUTS to do that one. The only reason could be salary reasons, but they could get MUCH better value then this deal. Including a future first rounder on top is what they would probably ask I would guess.

    4. I don't see Denver doing it. They give up Camby who has played a decent amount of games the last couple of years, rebounds very well and doesn't take much balls away from Anthony and Iverson. Martin is a problem child, but he gives them a little depth in the frontcourt, which they for the rest lack and he can defend aswell.

    5. NO!!! I'm ok with making a deal for Brad, but I want NO part of (Mo)Ron EVER again on the Pacers. IF that were to happen I would resign as a Pacers fan.

    So, Brad and something nice along side him for JO is ok, the Kings would very likely have another deal in place to send Ron somewhere else, because Ron and JO on one team is a definite no-no.

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Are we supposed to take this seriously? Was this supposed to run on April Fools Day and got lost on the way to the press?

    Shawne for Lowry is the only option I see any chance of happening. Even that's pretty remote, since half the league is trying to get Lowry.

    [edit] IOW, what Mourning said.
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffg-body View Post
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    #5 really intrigues me, but could the Simons have the kahoonas to pull the trigger on an Artest reunion?
    If Ron came back to Conseco, the only time our attendance would be more than 10,000 is when Portland came to town.
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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Quote Originally Posted by Irk Woodsman View Post
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    I love #3, and find #5 very interesting.
    Why not both #3 and #5? Throw in other assets (e.g. Dunleavy) to make it work. We could have the following lineup:

    PG: Hinrich
    SG: Granger
    SF: Williams
    PF: Artest
    C: Miller

    Edit: Someone help me! I'm becoming irrational because I have always loved Artest's game and thought JO was soft, overrated, among other things. Also, I want Miller back in Indy...
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 06-08-2008 at 10:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I like 1 & 2, love 3, would cringe at 4, and would kill a man at 5.

    Yes, that's right. I would be so opposed to getting Artest back that even bringing ol' Bradly with him wouldn't make me feel better. I would consider ending my season tickets.

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I will be extremely happy if Ron Artest comes back to Indiana....

    He is my favorite player....

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Are we supposed to take this seriously? Was this supposed to run on April Fools Day and got lost on the way to the press?

    Shawne for Lowry is the only option I see any chance of happening. Even that's pretty remote, since half the league is trying to get Lowry.

    [edit] IOW, what Mourning said.
    ditto, exaclty.

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I'd like to select door #2. I'd be extremely pleased!

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I guess there is no way that I can be convinced as a fan that having Ron Artest on the Pacers could be a positive with the team or the fans. Ron has proven time and time again to me that he has an extreme amount of talent, but he is mentally weak and is the most selfish player I've ever seen play in the NBA.

    Bringing Ron back is something that I believe would destroy what is left of the fan base and is something that would not be tolerated by many that actually buy the tickets.
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I absolutely can't understand why some of you are ok with the #5 deal.

    Artest was the one who started the dumbest and ugliest brawl of the history of the NBA and he caused that a quality franchise turned to become the black sheep of the league. He had one of the best teams around him and all he then wanted was offensive freedom.

    After the brawl, Artest got all the support from you, from me, from the team and from the organization and he responded with a trade demand!

    No way in hell would I want to see him back in a Pacer uniform!

    BTW: I really don't think either Morway or Bird have something like that in mind, this comes straight out of the author's fantasie. It just shocks me to see that some of you would do this..

    Coming back to the various trade possibilities, to be honest, I like none of these trades...nothing would really help this team!

    I agree with everything JimR has said!

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I honestly like any of them as long as they don't hurt us any more in the cap situation. At this point, you get no worse in the NBA than not making the playoffs, whether it's by 1 game or 15 games. This team isn't going anywhere with Jermaine O'Neal as its leader. The team needs a shake-up, even if it's not the best sounding one. Donnie shook the team up when he acquired Ron, Brad and Mercer with the midseason trade, and that was the shake-up the team needed. This team needs a change.

    I guess the question is, is it better to stay put, knowing you're not going to contend, or make a gamble on a shake-up, hoping it will provide what you might need to contend?
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Wells is trolling for us lol... But I would like to add my 2cents to the Artest to Indy thing.

    I really loved Ron's game, in fact he was near the top of my list of all time favorite players. He may have slowed down a bit, but the talent he has is undeniable even today.

    However, this guy is completely unreliable. You really never know when he is gonna change his mind about anything. TPTB could have all the assurances in the world from Ron, and he might just decide, come January after a tough practice and Jim Ob gettin on his case, that he would rather just retire from basketball. He would totally do something like that. I think that would be in the back of everyones mind too, especially if we aren't winning alot.
    It is just too risky. And ron is just too much of an unknown variable.

    The rest of those trades seem pretty unrealistic besides the Swilliams one. He has us shipping off our duds for quality players... That isnt how trades work in reality.

    I think MDJr is the guy we need to try to move. Though there might not be as much of a market for him right now as everyone seems to think.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 06-08-2008 at 01:04 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    A moment of nostalgia hit me thinking about Ron totally pwnin Lebron James his rookie year. Ahh I miss that 03-04 team.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Excluding everything non-basketball related, Artest isn't a good team basketball player. He breaks the offensive play by ball-hogging, gets too many poorly-timed fouls and can't be trusted in big games (04 Pistons series).

    At one point, he probably could have beat any player one-on-one. I've always respected his love for the game. He's just always going against his role on a team.

    And besides all that, how could we get him back for everything he did to disrupt the team?

  22. #22
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    Wow. Really, Mr. Wells? These are the kind of trades Larry is probably looking at? How about getting a single quote from TPTB about what they're trying to accomplish this summer? Because this is all crap out of your head. Sam Smith you're not.

    Can we just have Montieth back? Short version is I'm with Mourning and Kegboy, but for the record:

    1. Bad trade for both teams. Rick just got there and likes Kidd; they won't be moving him this summer.
    2. Sure, we'd do this. But Memphis wouldn't even think about it. Maybe we could trade Ike for M.Redd while we're at it.
    3. Quis and Ike for Captian Kirk? I'd hit it. I doubt Chicago would, but it would probably improve both teams. Only problem is that Chicago can probably get more for Hinrich. It's a worthwhile proposal, though.
    4. Gag me. Kenyon would break in half the moment he got to Indy.
    5. That wasn't a flinch, it was an attempt not to reach through the computer screen and throttle Mike Wells.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    1. Jermaine O'Neal to Dallas for Jason Kidd: I don't think this is the greatest deal, but we would be getting a quality player in return. I just think it leaves more issues than it solves. We "sort-of" temporarily solve the PG problem by putting a big dent in our post.

    2. Shawne Williams to Memphis for Kyle Lowry: I'm obviously against this for several reasons. One, I'm not ready to give up on Shawne. He's still low risk, so let's see if he can mature. If he does, it's a huge payoff; way more than we'll get from Lowry. Also, getting a defensive-minded 3rd stringer does not solve any glaring need. Otherwise, we'd keep Andre Owens or re-sign Orien Greene. Lowry is only slightly better than those players.

    3. Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich: PLEASE, NO. Hinrich might be the most overrated guard in the league. We wouldn't be losing a lot of needs, but this only slightly improves our PG situation. If this is what we want, it's much more valuable to let Diener develop. Travis showed plenty of improvement last year, and I have no doubt that he can reach Hinrich level, or maybe higher, in the right situation. If we're trading Diogu and Daniels, trade them for someone like Chucky Atkins (not even sure if that works) or someone who could provide a good veteran presence while being able to contribute at both ends.

    4. O'Neal to Denver for Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin: This deal makes the most sense to me. We don't lose any defense, may actually gain, all while adding front court depth. I think Kenyon is a guy that needs to be motivated by the right coach. It worked with Byron Scott, who is no-nonsense. Doesn't work with Karl, but more likely to work with O'Brien. When playing well, Martin always outplayed O'Neal. But that's only when he was playing well.

    5. O'Neal to Sacramento for Ron Artest and Brad Miller: If there was no history, this might be a no-brainer. But because of the history, it is a different type of no-brainer. I would love this deal, and I think people would eventually get over the past with Artest, at least until the next incident. On principle, I can't see us taking back the player who single-handedly started the downturn of this franchise on two separate occasions.



    As much as I hate O'Neal, I just don't see the value in trading him. He's our best player, and he's off the books in two years. And when he is, we'll want to be good enough to attract free agents with our extra money.

    The only way I see any of the deals above working is if future 1st picks (plural) are given to us without us losing any. Best case scenario: Trading O'Neal to a team that finishes with worst record in years of draft picks, plus decent players that can contribute and give Indiana a chance to win....not too much to ask for.

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    the 1st and 3rd I would do in a heartbeat, even the Kidd deal. I think Kidd can still play in the East. He can rebound, dish dimes, and simply run a team.
    You can still draft a PG for the future, or you could draft a young big and look for a PG down the road.

    Of course Quis and Ike for Hinrich is a no brainer, but the Bulls would NEVER do that

    I guess the Shawne for Lowry would be interesting, but I haven't seen enough of Lowry to form an opinion

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    Default Re: Wells: 5 potential Pacer trades - worth discussing

    I would do the Denver deal I think if we could get their number 1 pick as well.

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