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Thread: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

  1. #76
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by eldubious View Post
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    That was the most ridiculous trade rumor I've ever seen. How anyboody could defend it makes me question their alliegience to the Pacers. The Pacers would give up their most valuable asset and the 11th pick for Wally, the 19th, and Snow. Bird would have to have the IQ of a rock to make that deal. Any dealings with Cleveland would not include any draft pick from the Pacers and would certainly require Cleveland's 19th, period.
    I didn't see anybody here think that specific deal was a good trade. The closest anybody came to "defending it" was probably me when I said that the one scenario I could see the Pacers making that deal was one where they were desperate to shed salaries in preparation for a sale.

    Even then, I was of the opinion that it was a deal for the Pacers on the court and a bad deal for the fans in regards to the long term future of the Pacers in Indy.

    In any case, it looks like it was completely wrong per Morway, who says there are no talks with Cleveland.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    Morway: No Truth To O'Neal/Cleveland Rumors

    Indiana general manager David Morway revealed in a phone conversation with RealGM on Thursday afternoon that the team has not discussed a trade with Cleveland involving Jermaine O'Neal.

    When asked about the rumor, Morway simply said "No."
    Rumors were circulating around the internet that the Pacers were thinking about sending O'Neal and the 11th pick to the Cavaliers for the expiring contracts of guards Eric Snow and Wally Szczerbiak.


    "It's tough to answer questions on trades, but in this particular case I will say that the rumor is completely false," Morway added.
    Via Andrew Perna/RealGM
    With what is going on with the Pacers pre-draft workouts being covered, the blog by Morroway, Jim O'Briens homework assignments, and now this lightning quick denial of this hack has me applauding the Pacers seemingly new openess that we haven't seen with the franchise.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  3. #78
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    I will point out again (as I always do with this author) that Givony was fired from one internet rag after he admitted faking quotes and lying about interviews that never happend.

    He has 0 cred IMPO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Thanks, I didn't bother to check the source (stupid move). This guy is not worth 3+ pages on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Do you happen to have any links?

    I believe you, but I'm interested in reading what he did and his admission.
    geezer, i don't know if you have another incident in mind, but the big controversy i remember givony being involved in has nothing to do with fake quotes or lying about interviews.

    what happened was that he called agent joel bell a "scumbag" in his article, and joel bell brought a defamation suit against givony and draftcity.com (the previous incarnation of draftexpress)

    i can't find givony's blog post about it any more, but read the court case and judge for yourself.

    http://www.ctd.uscourts.gov/Opinions...6.RNC.Bell.pdf

    this was the part of the article bell objected to:

    One of the more interesting topics from yesterday was Kelenna Azubuike’s decision to sign an agent and forfeit any NCAA eligibility he has remaining. . . .

    According to those I spoke to, the person to blame for this horrible decision (besides Kelenna who should have obviously known better and at least done a little bit of research) was the agent he decided to hire, Joe Bell. The word "scumbag" came up again and again in conversations around him, and apparently this isn’t the first time that word has been associated with his name. He’s widely known as an extremely sketchy agent who has no problem bribing greedy parents with offers of $50,000 or so in order to convince their kids to flush their career down the toilet.

    Numerous names of players who were made similar offers this year and in the past were brought up. Dwayne Jones from St. Joe’s has apparently been made an offer from Bell as well, and his father is thinking about taking it, despite the fact that he basically has no chance of being a first rounder and many think he might not even be drafted in the second round.
    for the record, azubuike did do undrafted, before eventually being picked up by the warriors.

    certainly, it was extremely indiscrete to print this kind of allegation, even on an obscure website. but that's a far cry from quote fabrication and lying that geezer is saying.

    he did get fired from draftcity.com, but that's because his partner decided to settle with bell and close the site down. givony went on to found draftexpress.

    i don't have any association with draftexpress, other than as an avid reader, but i feel compelled to defend givony. he has brought some great content over the years. his problem is, he prints nearly everything he is told (like the j.o. and #11 to cleveland rumor, which i think is overstated), but isn't that the attraction for us draft fans?
    Last edited by wintermute; 06-06-2008 at 12:46 AM.

  4. #79
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Do you know how quickly Mike Brown would kill Danny Ferry if he traded for Tinsley?

    For his own safty Ferry would never to a deal for JT.

  5. #80

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    i'd do crap contracts + the 19th and maybe their 2nd or a future 1st for jo, but giving up our #11 just to rid ourselves of jo is insane.

  6. #81
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Beyond insane. JO's value to other teams will only increase for the remainder of his contract duration. I say we hold on to him until next summer or the trade deadline following on that in the winter and then try to maximize our leverage. IF they do trade him this summer then just expirings and crap won't do IMO.

    We need atleast the semblance of a building block back.

    With regards to shedding salary to be able to re-sign Danny. I think letting Daniels contract expire should provide some relief, though if it will be enough is very much a questionmark with part of that relief beying "eaten" immediately by the yearly rising salaries from other players contracts.

    Regards,

    Mourning
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    No, sorry I do not have that info. And that is interesting Wintermute, I don't remember seeing that. What I have always based my comment on was what I read as a disclaimer on one site saying he had been fired for these offenses and then being struck that he was writing on DraftExpress.

    Perhaps they are one and the same offense and the site I saw the comments on had an agenda vs. Givony.

    Since I cannot produce the link perhaps I should just say...I'm skeptical of anything he says.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    [quote=Mourning;731348]Beyond insane. JO's value to other teams will only increase for the remainder of his contract duration. I say we hold on to him until next summer or the trade deadline following on that in the winter and then try to maximize our leverage. IF they do trade him this summer then just expirings and crap won't do IMO.

    We need atleast the semblance of a building block back.



    Exactly, my friend. From a business standpoint it would be silly, stupid, and tragic to give away JO when his value is at its nadir. Common sense would scream out that you deal him as his value continues to rise. And I hope that TPTB are NOT contemplating giving away the #11 pick to get rid of a contract. Rebuilding involves acquiring draft picks and using them wisely, not giving them away.

  9. #84
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Do you know how quickly Mike Brown would kill Danny Ferry if he traded for Tinsley?

    For his own safty Ferry would never to a deal for JT.
    After listening to the anti-Ricks claim that Tinsley only got to play because Rick got booted from a game and Mike Brown immediately gave Tins a shot and he never let go, I'd expect to see that theory proven out by Brown killing TO GET TINSLEY.

    Now I think that view of Tins in Rick's first year is bunk. Rick had no obligation to keep playing Tinsley in games after that and in fact Kenny Anderson got hurt which required Rick to count on Tins regardless. IMO Tinsley simply had to earn his way back to the court because of whatever issues Rick had with him. I think it's safe to say this continued under JOB too, with maybe even less forgiveness perhaps.



    Either way it would seem that if CLE felt they needed a point guard I don't think Mike would be fully against it. And if Tinsley has been sitting 80% because of sinipoutis Brown would know that and would know that if he could get along with Tins where Rick/JOB couldn't the Cavs could get a real bargain in dealing for him.

  10. #85
    J.O. To The T.O. Oneal07's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    With what is going on with the Pacers pre-draft workouts being covered, the blog by Morroway, Jim O'Briens homework assignments, and now this lightning quick denial of this hack has me applauding the Pacers seemingly new openess that we haven't seen with the franchise.

    LOL. . It's a horrible trade plan
    R.I.P. Bernic Mac & Isaac Hayes

  11. #86
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    With what is going on with the Pacers pre-draft workouts being covered, the blog by Morroway, Jim O'Briens homework assignments, and now this lightning quick denial of this hack has me applauding the Pacers seemingly new openess that we haven't seen with the franchise.
    I want to give a little credit to Andrew as well, who tracked down Morway to get the lightning quick denial.

  12. #87

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    With what is going on with the Pacers pre-draft workouts being covered, the blog by Morroway, Jim O'Briens homework assignments, and now this lightning quick denial of this hack has me applauding the Pacers seemingly new openess that we haven't seen with the franchise.
    Here, here! It's a completely new direction for this franchise. I, for one, am well pleased.

  13. #88

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Well, it depends on what you think of picks 6 through 20. I happen to think there's not much, if any, difference in those players. If you can get a good player or something else of decent value and still be in a position to get a guy you think is just as good later, then you do it.

    For example, if, after the workouts, you decide that Lawson and CDR are at the top of your list, you might look to move back a few picks if you think you can get them later.
    But that's my point. If you really like the guy and he's available at #11 why trade down to get him at #19? Makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. The right thing to do is to move UP not DOWN.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    But that's my point. If you really like the guy and he's available at #11 why trade down to get him at #19? Makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. The right thing to do is to move UP not DOWN.
    You do it if you think he'll be there at #19 because in trading down you'll get the #19 AND some kind of incentive back.

  15. #90

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    You do it if you think he'll be there at #19 because in trading down you'll get the #19 AND some kind of incentive back.
    That had better be one helluva incentive!

    Frankly, I really can't imagine a scenario where any team would trade down to get the player they want if he was available at the team's original draft position.. It's like saying, "Oh! We (Portland) have the #1 pick and we know Oden's available right now, but we're gonna trade down w/Atlanta to get their #3 and #11 picks because we have a gentleman's agreement between them and every other team w/picks 1, 2, 4-10 not to take the guys we want. We'll get so-and-so @ #3 and pick Oden at #11."

    I mean, really...what kind of sense does that make?

    If anything the Hawks would trade both their picks to Portland to get the #1 pick, not the reverse. If your guy is available @ #11 you get him. Plain and simple. If not, you select the next best talent on your selection board OR if you think all of your best options will be gone by the time your turn comes up you try to trade UP to improve your odds. I just can NOT think of any viable scenario that would make a team think it's in their best interest to trade down.

  16. #91

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by eldubious View Post
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    That was the most ridiculous trade rumor I've ever seen. How anyboody could defend it makes me question their alliegience to the Pacers. The Pacers would give up their most valuable asset and the 11th pick for Wally, the 19th, and Snow. Bird would have to have the IQ of a rock to make that deal. Any dealings with Cleveland would not include any draft pick from the Pacers and would certainly require Cleveland's 19th, period.
    JO isn't our most valuable asset.

    The deal is bad -- no doubt -- but JO has a heavy contract, bad knees, and the mindset that he's Tim Duncan.

  17. #92

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    FYI...

    I can't remember if this was the thread where someone asked for proof (link) where Morway said the Pacers were considering packaging their #11 pick with a trade, but here's an article where he speaks of the possibility of pursuing an additional 1st round pick.

    Pacers Begin Preparing Their Workouts


    Jun 05, 2008 5:08 PM EST


    The Pacers have begun working out players at Conseco Fieldhouse this week, and a variety of talent has been evaluated by team President Larry Bird and General Manager David Morway.

    On Wednesday the team worked out North Carolina's Ty Lawson, D.J. Augustin of Texas, Ohio State's Jamar Butler, Stanley Burrell of Xavier, Sasha Kaun of Kansas, and Nebraska's Aleks Maric.

    They hold the 11th pick in this month's draft.

    The team will also workout UCLA's Russell Westbrook within the next few weeks as well as DeAndre Jordan of Texas A&M.

    Indiana also hasn't ruled out making a deal on the draft night.

    "We're considering everything, and one of the things that we have looked at is acquiring another pick later in the first round," Morway said in a phone interview.

    "We are having ongoing conversations with teams everyday, and while I don't know the likelihood of it now, we probably won't see anything happen until the night of the draft," he added.

  18. #93
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    JO's not going ANYWHERE until his knee is proven. We're talking $44M. That's a very big gamble.

  19. #94

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    when exactly has jo's "value" been on the rise in the past 3 years?

  20. #95

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    But it's a gamble I'm willing to take.

    Look, most fans have very short memories. Just about everyone seems to have forgotten how good JO was only a mere four years ago before all the injuries started piling up. Even now when fans speak of JO's injury history nearly everyone overlooks the severity of his injuries: shoulder strain, ham-string, torn meniscis (right knee).

    Except for the occasional cold, spraind ankle, bump or bruise, the above were the injuries that rendered him inactive the longest. On those such injuries, I don't think it was a matter of poor conditioning. They were just unfortunate mishaps.

    This upcoming season would be the first season in about 4-yrs JO would start a season injury-free. I say retaining him would be a very worthwhile gamble...as long as he and Bird can bury the hatchet anywhere except in each other's skulls.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 06-07-2008 at 10:37 AM.

  21. #96

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    But it's a gamble I'm willing to take.

    Look, most fans have very short memories. Just about everyone seems to have forgotten how good JO was only a mere four years ago before all the injuries started piling up. Even now when fans speak of JO's injury history nearly everyone overlooks the severity of his injuries: shoulder strain, ham-string, torn meniscis (right knee).

    Except for the occasional cold, spraind ankle, bump or bruise, the above were the injuries that rendered him inactive the longest. On those such injuries, I don't think it was a matter of poor conditioning. There were just unfortunate mishaps.

    This upcoming season would be the first season in about 4-yrs JO would start a season injury-free. I say retaining him would be a very worthwhile gamble...as long as he and Bird can bury the hatchet anywhere except in each other's skulls.
    I see it as pretty obvious that JO doesn't want to be part of what he feels is a rebuilding team. He wants to play for a team who is competing for a championship, and lets admit it "that's not the Pacers." Why can't you just admit it, and understand it's time to part ways? An unhappy JO having to play where he doesn't want to be isn't conducive to the Pacers. Players playing where they don't want to be don't be don't give their all, right Vince? JO is the Pacers biggest trade asset in order for a retooling/rebuiding to happen. The retooling needs to happen now not at the trade deadline or in his expring contract year. The Pacers need to go forward with a different team. A team that fans can relate to for years to come, a team with a new face/players, and that team doesn't include JO!

    You can look at it in different ways: 1) the rose colored glasses way where JO is coming back injury free and in allstar form, yeah right heard that before, or 2) that JO made be injury free just enough to get some decent value for him, which is the biggest way he can help this team now. Thus helping the team back to being competitive now and not 2 years from now when his contract expires. Sooner than later. The sooner the Pacers get competitive with new players/new image the sooner the seats in Conseco will start filling up again. That's what ownership needs, now not 2 years from now. They can't take the gamble you are so willing to take. They have 44mil involved and millions and millions in lost revenue, you don't.

    What's so hard to understand that JO isn't part of the Pacers new future? What I find odd is that JO understands it, why can't you?

    You have been advocating for 2 years on different boards that keeping JO is what should be done, and it's time to come to the realization it's not. If it was between keeping JO or Tinsley, I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but it isn't. Both need to go this off season for the Pacers sake. JMOAA

  22. #97

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You have been advocating for 2 years on different boards that keeping JO is what should be done, and it's time to come to the realization it's not.
    What are you? Some kind of message board stalker? Have I made that much of an impression on you that you've been hanging on my every word for two years? I don't know whether I should be flattered or very afraid.

    Okay, sarcasm aside, and I appreciate the fact you have been paying attention, I happen to see the glass as half full and not half empty. I don't see the team as "rebuilding" but rather in a state of flux. It's not uncommon. Teams go through it from time to time. It happens. Bird and Morway's job is to determine where things went wrong and come up with a plan to fix it. Unlike most, I saw the Pacers as a very competitive team last season. Their shortfalls were not having anyone who could stop dribble penetration and not having an interior defender. On the offensive end they put up enough points to beat most teams. They just lacked defense.

    The other side of it was not having a "go-to-guy" in the clutch. For a long time that role befell on Reggie. Then for a while they divided that role (or tried to) between JO and SJax. Since the GS trade the Pacers have been trying to identify that guy among the players who remained. Granger and Dunleavy emerged to share that load last year. It remains to be seen whether either one or both can fully step into it. Regardless, defense remains an area that needs to be addressed, as well as identifying a prominate "experienced" interior post presence. Who else is available who can fill that role without taking away from the pieces the team already have in place and still allow the team to move forward and be competitive?

    Yes, $44M could spring for some good talent, but it's talent that I'm afraid would take at least 3-4 yrs in order to truly gel. Are you willing to wait that long? Mind you, Pacers fans are already anxious for a winner NOW!

    Yes, I value JO's abilities because I know what a "healthy" JO can bring to the hardwood. No, he's not the "take over a game in the clutch" type player, but what he can do is provide that post-presence this team needs provided he is able to stay on the floor. I've seen what he can do in the past and I know what a gimpy JO is capable of doing. With only a few exceptions, I'd take a gimpy JO over pretty much any PF in the league today. And I'm willing to give him at least one more year to showcase his talents. Heck, we gave 5.1 (Bender) far more leeway.

    If it was between keeping JO or Tinsley, I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but it isn't. Both need to go this off season for the Pacers sake. JMOAA
    Actually, that's exactly what it comes down to only no one's really saying it. You can find another (Point) Guard pretty much any day of the week. That was proven when Flip Murray came in and shored up the PG role and look how things improved even if just a little bit. PF/C's aren't so easy to come by.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 06-09-2008 at 11:33 PM.

  23. #98

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    JT-

    Have to disagree. If hanging on to J.O. for another 12-18 months
    means getting $1000 for him vs getting $500 now, it's worth the
    wait. I don't care how J.O. feels about it, what's better for him
    or his career or wether he even plays at all during that 12-18
    months.

  24. #99
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    You trade down when you know the guy you want will still be there. Why? # 19 makes less $$ now and later than a #11.

    If we are looking to trade JT because as Obie said, you can't count on him (to be available)...then shouldn't the same apply to JO?
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  25. #100

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    You trade down when you know the guy you want will still be there. Why? # 19 makes less $$ now and later than a #11.
    Good point -- you also do it because you can receive value for dropping down.

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