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Thread: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    (Don't see this in the similar threads, and it's slightly different than the Chad Ford rumor...I'm sure the mods will merge if necessary...if so, sorry)

    Jonathan Givony is bringing up the JO-to-Cavs, but it's unclear what the deal is.

    -The Indiana Pacers are trying to dangle the #11 pick in hopes of being able to package it with one of their ugly contracts (preferably Jermaine O’Neal). There is talk out of O’Neal’s camp that he anticipates being trade to Cleveland at some point this summer, possibly in a deal involving expiring contracts such as Wally Szczerbiak and Eric Snow.

    The Pacers don’t want to give O’Neal away for nothing, but the temptation of shedding his 23 million dollar contract from their cap figure (giving them substantial cap space to work with in July of 2009) may be too great to pass up. On Cleveland’s end, it makes sense for their ownership to spend the money it will take to try and appease LeBron James and show them they are making the efforts to put together a championship caliber team. We’ve heard rumblings about this Cleveland/Indiana trade from a number of well-informed sources, so there appears to be at least some truth to it.
    It stops short of saying "JO & 11 to Cavs for Crap-on-a-stick", but it's not a big leap to infer that.

    I'm wondering if there is a package that could get it done, but I'd want Cleveland's #19 back. The most pallatable might be Wally, Sideshow Bob, S&T Delonte West, & #19 for JO & #11 (+ maybe filler?).

    This package has a large expiring (Wally), two serviceable young guys (Varejao & West), and we get back in the draft where guys we like will be more reasonable (CDR, Brandon Rush, etc.). It's a pretty crappy deal, but they all will be, and I'm wondering if TPTB have reached the point where they're just going to take the best offer available and be done with it.

    I'm getting the feeling that the guys we really like won't be there at 11, and the people we'd probably take would be a reach, so moving back 8 spots wouldn't be a huge penalty...(well, at least not on top of the penalty we're already paying in terms of talent return because of JO's contract & injury history.)

    I don't know...it's a beggar's choice...probably be best just sitting on him.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    I thought I read somewhere JO couldn't be traded during the draft?
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raskolnikov View Post
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    I thought I read somewhere JO couldn't be traded during the draft?
    This is the question at hand in the "JO Doesn't Opt Out" thread.

    EDIT: If that thread means that he's officially under contract for next season, then we can deal him on draft day. (I think.)

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raskolnikov View Post
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    I thought I read somewhere JO couldn't be traded during the draft?

    If true (and I have no idea if that's true), we can just tell Cleveland who to pick and execute the trade the day after. Happens all the time.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raskolnikov View Post
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    I thought I read somewhere JO couldn't be traded during the draft?
    He can't be traded until his ETO expires. It does that midnight June 30. The draft is June 26. His reps have already informed the Pacers he's not opting out.

    I haven't read any contract language that you can trade a player after they inform a team they are not opting out, and I've looked for it. I think the ETO deadline has to expire.

    Since they now know he's not going to opt out, they could still announce a trade on June 26 after any draft picks have been picked, but it wouldn't go though until after June 30.

    Since Givony is ignoring the above, I think it proves he's speculating.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    He can't be traded until his ETO expires. It does that midnight June 30. The draft is June 26. His reps have already informed the Pacers he's not opting out.

    I haven't read any contract language that you can trade a player after they inform a team they are not opting out, and I've looked for it. I think the ETO deadline has to expire.

    Since they now know he's not going to opt out, they could still announce a trade on June 26 after any draft picks have been picked, but it wouldn't go though until after June 30.

    Since Givony is ignoring the above, I think it proves he's speculating.
    Yeah, this is what I was wondering about. BTW...do the rights to a player have value against the cap in a trade?

    For example, if we deal JO for a package including the #19 pick, and we can't consummate it until after June 30, how would that be handled. Would that player have to be signed by Cleveland, then we'd have to wait another 30 days? Could that player's rights be dealt without any cap impact? If not, would the rights be valued at whatever the average #19 would be worth?

    I'm sure that Givony's speculating, but I think he's doing it based on some reasonable information. He may be putting the pieces together incorrectly, but I think there's enough smoke to believe that Cleveland and Indy are flirting with each other about JO.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Assuming that we aren't going to use Ike Diogu (for whatever reason), we could package JO and Diogu for Wally, Snow, and the #19.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    No thanks. That implies a rebuild for next year even more and if that's the case then just wait and move JO then when he can get what Wally and Snow are getting here - an 11 pick at least - just because of the ending contract.

    Take the 11 this year, struggle on and take another 12 pick next year, and also move JO either for a useful vet from a rebuild and/or another pick.

    You don't give CLE your 11 to take JO for Wally/Snow. It's not that big a favor on their part.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    No thanks. That implies a rebuild for next year even more and if that's the case then just wait and move JO then when he can get what Wally and Snow are getting here - an 11 pick at least - just because of the ending contract.

    Take the 11 this year, struggle on and take another 12 pick next year, and also move JO either for a useful vet from a rebuild and/or another pick.

    You don't give CLE your 11 to take JO for Wally/Snow. It's not that big a favor on their part.
    Yeah, I agree that if you structured a deal primarily involving the names in the article, it's a non-starter. I was just wondering if there was something to be built there that would make as much (or more) sense as doing what you're describing above. It's doubtful, but if I don't do this, I have to develop a Productivity Analysis tool for a failing CD/DVD plant. Who wants to do that?
    Last edited by count55; 06-05-2008 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    You don't give CLE your 11 to take JO for Wally/Snow. It's not that big a favor on their part.
    I've gotta agree with the "no thanks" part. Just remember, this is the team that gave up a first rounder for Harrington, and years ago gave up an extra first rounder for Foster.

    I hope they are not as dumb this time, but it is Bird.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    I will point out again (as I always do with this author) that Givony was fired from one internet rag after he admitted faking quotes and lying about interviews that never happend.

    He has 0 cred IMPO.
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    I will point out again (as I always do with this author) that Givony was fired from one internet rag after he admitted faking quotes and lying about interviews that never happend.

    He has 0 cred IMPO.
    Thanks, I didn't bother to check the source (stupid move). This guy is not worth 3+ pages on.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    I will point out again (as I always do with this author) that Givony was fired from one internet rag after he admitted faking quotes and lying about interviews that never happend.

    He has 0 cred IMPO.
    Thanks Geezer! I remembered Givony had done something and was looking for that bit of information earlier and got sidetracked and forgot about it.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    I will point out again (as I always do with this author) that Givony was fired from one internet rag after he admitted faking quotes and lying about interviews that never happend.

    He has 0 cred IMPO.
    Do you happen to have any links?

    I believe you, but I'm interested in reading what he did and his admission.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    That was the most ridiculous trade rumor I've ever seen. How anyboody could defend it makes me question their alliegience to the Pacers. The Pacers would give up their most valuable asset and the 11th pick for Wally, the 19th, and Snow. Bird would have to have the IQ of a rock to make that deal. Any dealings with Cleveland would not include any draft pick from the Pacers and would certainly require Cleveland's 19th, period.
    Last edited by eldubious; 06-05-2008 at 09:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    I'd definitely pass on the Wally/Snow for JO deal. I'd think the Pacers would entertain a JO/Tinsley for Z/Wally/Jones and #19 pick.

    The team that will take O'Neal will be a team like Cleveland, Detroit, Dallas, Utah, Phoenix, etc. who may be on the brink of winning a championship but feels they are one player away. I could also see them doing a deal if they could land a nice draft pick too (top 10).

    Pacers new lineup:

    Augustin (#11), Diener, Jones
    Dunleavy, Daniels, Wally
    Granger, Williams, Graham
    Murphy, Speights (#19 pick), Diogu
    Z, Foster, 2nd rd pick

    Pacers lineup and salary cap situation in 2009-2010:

    PG: Augustin (2 million), Diener (1.7 million), FA (1 million)
    SG; Dunleavy (9.8 million), 2008 draft pick (1.5 million), FA (800k)
    SF: Granger, (10 million), Williams (2.4 million), FA (1 million)
    PF: Murphy (11 million), Diogu (4 million), FA (1 million)
    C: Z (11.5 million), Foster resigned (4 million), #19 pick (1.5 million)

    Pacers would have a total cap of about 60 million. Big Z has a player option for 2009-2010 and could be a potential expiring as well and would be an expiring contract after next season. After 2008-2009 season, the Pacers would shed contracts of Wally, Marquis, Jones, Diogu, Foster and Graham. That's a total of about 34.3 million. Granted, I think the Pacers would resign some of those players. Add Big Z if he were to decline his player option and the Pacers would have expirings of 45+ million.

    Just some food for thought!

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    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    IF that is the deal and we don't move Tinsley? I will

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    The only issue I see with this CLE speculation is that we are trading the best player and giving up a higher draft pick. Don't see that happening. I could see us getting Szczerbiak and Snow, both expiring, and the #19 straight up for JO. Szczerbiak and Snow are both great locker room guys but severely lack in talent.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    I think a more appropriate deal in this situation would be:

    JO
    Tinsley

    for

    Szczerbiak
    Snow
    D. Jones
    2008 First Rounder (#19 overall)

    That would make more sense for both teams. Give a bunch of expiring contracts for two guys who would actually contribute for their team. I know their injury history but i think the core of guys in cleveland would help take a lot of pressure off of them playing too much. I bet we would be looking at buying Damon Jones out anyway, and then he could go sign for the veteran minimum, make more money on the year, and we get a discount against our cap which would be just under the veteran minimum. this makes a lot of sense for both teams.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    If you do a deal like that, the Pacers might as well cancel their draft party right now. Why have that many angry people in one place.

    I don't believe this rumor for a second due to the fact that O'neal's contract is only going to increase after this upcomming season. Wait a year, and I bet you can get a similar deal w/out sacraficing a pick.

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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    First, is this even legal, considering Cleveland is in negotiations to injury-retire Snow?

    Second, even if we can't make the trade until after the draft, we better agree on it beforehand. Cleveland and us have completely different needs at #19.

    Third, I don't see much point in doing this, when we're in effect only losing a year of Jermaine's contract. Best to leave it until next year, when his expiring is more enticing.

    But hey, I'm all for getting another SF, and a white one at that.
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    No way we should be giving our #11 in this deal. Besides, the deal sucks even if we don't give up the pick. Yes they are expirings, but JO would be worth more than that at the deadline. They would have to give us a future pick also IMO. I'm not against trading JO right now, but not for this.
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    For those wanting to keep JO as an expiring contract in the summer of '10, don't we have to shed his contract at least a year earlier than that in oder to absorb the new contract Granger will surely be signing this summer?
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    It makes no sense to trade JO for expirings when he'll be a huge expiring himself in a year.

  25. #25
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Draft Express - JO to Cavs Speculation (among other things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    It makes no sense to trade JO for expirings when he'll be a huge expiring himself in a year.
    While I am not in favor in any way, shape, or form of trading JO for just expirings...

    A year is a long time, and there is a lot of money to be either spent or saved in that year.

    I would be fine if we got a large expiring, a serviceable vet, and a couple of solid-to-promising young guys, but that's another issue entirely.

    Let's say for one moment that Givony is right (which I hope he's not). What would a JO & #11 for a Wally/Snow package mean? Well, for one thing, it'd save the Pacers at least $24 million over the next two years. For another, it would clear a lot of room to deal with Danny next season. Those aren't bad things, but they're hardly worth the price we'd be paying.

    However, an ugly spectre makes its presence known. It is precisely the type of deal that cleans up debt and cash flow in preparation for the sale of the team. If we did a deal this bad, I'd be real nervous waiting for the other shoe to drop.

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