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Thread: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    It makes sense that Hinrich is available, especially after the lottery last night. So my quesiton to those who watch college basketball, who is and who will be better Hinrich or a possible point guard who might be available at the #11th pick in the draft.

    If we can get someone who is better than Hinrich at the 11th pick, I'll be very happy.

    Kirk does have 4 years left - 37 million

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Here is a decent article discussing some of this

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print...811&type=story


    SECAUCUS, N.J. -- The Chicago Bulls were the big winners in the 2008 draft lottery Tuesday night, taking home the top pick despite a measly 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery.

    Only one team, the 1993 Orlando Magic, has overcome greater odds to win the lottery. Now comes the Bulls' biggest task: deciding whom to take with the No. 1 pick.

    In our latest mock draft, I have the Bulls selecting Kansas State forward Michael Beasley by a hair.

    Yes, Derrick Rose is a hometown candidate and a clear upgrade over their current point guard, Kirk Hinrich. And he's my favorite player in the draft. But that isn't the only consideration.

    Most general managers have Beasley ranked ahead of Rose in the talent department. Rose may have more upside and plays a critically important position, but if you ask GMs and scouts to rate guys purely on talent, Beasley comes out ahead. In fact, until Rose's excellent run in the NCAA tournament, most NBA scouts and GMs scoffed at the idea of taking anyone other than Beasley with the first pick in the draft.

    Michael Beasley could give Chicago some hope down low.
    The Bulls have been looking for a low-post scorer for years. They tried everything from trading for veterans like Drew Gooden to drafting young athletes like Tyrus Thomas. To date, nothing has worked. Since trading away Elton Brand in 2001, the Bulls have struggled to score in the paint.

    The consensus the past few years has been that the Bulls will never get over the top until they get that guy who can average 20 points and 10 rebounds for them. Considering the way Beasley dominated the Big 12 this year, is there any question he's the right fit?

    Well … yes. There are questions about Beasley's attitude and work ethic. Stories still swirl about his offcourt antics in high school. The Derrick Coleman comparisons don't help, either.

    But at the end of the day, I think Beasley has a slight edge. The NBA executives I interviewed in Secaucus after the draft lottery mostly agreed. Of the six NBA execs I spoke with, four thought the Bulls would select Beasley. Two picked Rose.

    I would've asked Bulls GM John Paxson myself, except he wasn't here. Nor were any of the Bulls' front-office guys in charge of the draft. That's probably the most telling sign that the Bulls didn't think they had a chance in hell of winning the lottery.

    We'll be watching this drama closely over the next few weeks. The Bulls can't go wrong with either player.

    • Regardless of whom the Bulls take, expect there to be some big changes to their roster as a result of the big lottery win. If they select Beasley, expect Gooden and Thomas to be on the shopping block. If they select Rose, Hinrich could be on the move.

    Of the two options, Beasley probably wins the argument here as well. A combo of Gooden (who will be in the last year of his contract) and Thomas should have much more trade value than Hinrich (who has four years, $37 million left on his contract).

    • The Heat will be in limbo until the Bulls make their decision. A source familiar with Miami's thinking told me on Tuesday that the Heat would likely keep the pick if they get Rose. If the Bulls select Rose, right now the Heat would be more inclined to trade the pick.

    However, Shawn Marion could change the equation. There have been growing rumors that Marion is considering opting out of his contract. If he did that (and decided to sign with another team), the Heat would suddenly need a player like Beasley to fill the void.

    If Marion opts out, where would he go? The Sixers are the only team with significant cap room this summer.

    • Mike D'Antoni kept smiling, but Tuesday wasn't his night. D'Antoni agonized for a week over whether to take the Bulls' or Knicks' head coaching job. He chose the Knicks, and then two weeks later … the Bulls win the lottery.

    Ouch. Suddenly, a Bulls team that already looked like it had a bright future now looks incredible. The Knicks? It's going to be a long two years.

    I think D'Antoni was itching to get his hands on Rose. He needs a dynamic point guard to run his system and drafting at No. 6, he probably isn't going to get it. Jerryd Bayless will likely be off the board before then. D.J. Augustin and Russell Westbrook are the next best point guards available, but six is probably too high for both.

    Where does that leave New York? There will be growing speculation that the Knicks may turn their attention to Italian forward Danilo Gallinari. D'Antoni played with Gallinari's father in Italy for eight years. He's watched Danilo play over the years in Europe, and he knows how tough the Italian league is. D'Antoni loves versatile forwards like Gallinari. His basketball IQ and facilitation skills would be a great fit in a D'Antoni offense.

    I spoke with D'Antoni minutes after the draft lottery. You can see his comments on the Knicks' bad night, Gallinari and what type of offense he wants to run in New York here.

    • Look for a number of this year's lottery picks to be for sale the next few months. Numerous sources have said that the Heat, Timberwolves, Sonics, Knicks, Clippers, Bucks, Bobcats, Nets and Blazers are all open to trading their picks if the right deal came along.

    Teams like the Wolves, Sonics, Bucks, Bobcats and Blazers are already loaded with young players. What they need are veterans who can add leadership and depth. Teams like the Heat, Knicks, Clippers and Nets seem to be focused on winning now.

    While everyone agrees that the draft is deep and talented, only Rose and Beasley are considered superstar material. The rest of the players in the draft are considered good prospects, but not the type of players who can quickly turn the fortunes of a team.

    • If I'm Cavs owner Dan Gilbert, I'm really sweating losing LeBron James in two years. Nets co-owner Jay-Z was at the draft lottery and Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant and Rudy Gay were absolutely mesmerized by the guy. We know LeBron is a big fan as well and if the Nets can get under the cap and use Jay-Z as a pitch man -- he could very well become one of the most powerful owners in the league.

    Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 05-21-2008 at 10:00 AM.

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    Member esabyrn333's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    I like DJ Augustin alot but I don't think I would take him over Hinrich. Personally I would love to get both. I think Quis & Foster's expiring contracts are going to look pretty when you think about how much Hinrich is paid over the next few years.

    Maybe a Diener, Williams, Foster trade for Hinrich, ??

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    I like DJ Augustin alot but I don't think I would take him over Hinrich. Personally I would love to get both. I think Quis & Foster's expiring contracts are going to look pretty when you think about how much Hinrich is paid over the next few years.

    Maybe a Diener, Williams, Foster trade for Hinrich, ??
    Bulls likely won't have any interest in Foster (unless they trade some of their bigs) they already have at least two young offensively challenged energy power forwards

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    maybe they'd do JO for Hinrich (plus filler) then they take Rose?
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    For the 5 millionth time, Hinrich's a bum. I'm not going to waste my time following a team with him as point guard.

    As for Augustin, he's not starting material, not right away at least. And the Pacers have made it clear they don't expect to get a starting-caliber point at 11. Doesn't mean we can't get a capable veteran to platoon with DJ, Westbrook, Chalmers, whomever. But IMO that definitely should not be Hinrich.
    Last edited by Kegboy; 05-21-2008 at 10:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Bulls likely won't have any interest in Foster (unless they trade some of their bigs) they already have at least two young offensively challenged energy power forwards
    I think this team is going to be very good next year. I see thier one weakness is that they need a solid Vetran on the team that has play off experince.

    Maybe Hinrich & a sign & trade for Gordon for JO and our Pick. This gives them JO and Larry Hughes coming off the books the same time as D-Wade becomes a free agent.

    Plus like I said this team with JO on it would be a contender the next 2 years. This team would be very Deep and if you add Avery Johnson as coach resign Duhon and Deng.

    Duhon, Thabo, Nocioni, Thomas as your bench.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    For the 5 millionth time, Hinrich's a bum. I'm not going to waste my time following a team with him as point guard.

    As for Augustin, he's not starting material, not right away at least. And the Pacers have made it clear they don't expect to get a starting-caliber point at 11. Doesn't mean we can't get a capable veteran to platoon with DJ, Westbrook, Chalmers, whomever. But IMO that definitely should not be Hinrich.
    I was thinking of you when I started this thread.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Hinrich had a bad year, but prior to that he was getting 16 points, 6 assists a game, shooting 40% from three, and playing great defense.

    I think JO for Hinrich/Hughes makes a lot of sense for both sides. We would go from a terrible defensive team to a great one, and we would not lose any of our main offensive weapons either.
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    I still think Kirk could look very good playing for Jim O'Brien.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Someday somebody's gonna have to explain to me why JO has any value at all as a trading piece.

    We're talking a max contract player who's been chronically injured, has averaged 50 games/season over the last 4 years and whose game, and numbers, are declining.

    Other than as a contract that ends in 2010, he's worthless in a trade - or worse. Right now you'd have to throw a player in to convince someone to take him, or accept somebody else's problem (see Zach Randolph).
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I think JO for Hinrich/Hughes makes a lot of sense for both sides. We would go from a terrible defensive team to a great one,
    Woah, woah, woah. This will not be a great defensive team after that trade. It might appear a little better because of the major increase in perimeter defense, but you're also trading our best post defender away.

    Now, if you're comparing the post-trade team to the JO-less team, then yes that's big improvement. I really don't want Hughes, though. It'd be nice if we got their 2009 first rounder for taking him.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Someday somebody's gonna have to explain to me why JO has any value at all as a trading piece.

    We're talking a max contract player who's been chronically injured, has averaged 50 games/season over the last 4 years and whose game, and numbers, are declining.

    Other than as a contract that ends in 2010, he's worthless in a trade - or worse. Right now you'd have to throw a player in to convince someone to take him, or accept somebody else's problem (see Zach Randolph).
    I took the thinking to be that we could trade a bum for bums--isn't that what Kirk, Hughes, and JO are considered to be? Trade garbage and hope they play better in a new situation, I guess.
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    I would do JO for Hughes/Hinrich in a heartbeat. Hinrich has seemingly had one bad year, I thought he was once really well regarded in Chicago. Hughes is a great perimeter defender.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Is Augustine, Travis Best but a pure point guard?

    I think this, if you are looking at 3-5 years from now, you take your chances with Augustine who is a leader and lightening quick, but is short. I think he has the rest of it.

    If you want to win next year and get the 6-8th playoff spot and thats iffy, then you'd move for Henrick.

    I like Henrick and he will put up great numbers in this offense, but you have to ask yourself, is the surrounding cast much better than the Bulls last year? Does it make you a contender?

    Is Henrick another guy who puts up good numbers on a sub par team if he's with the Pacers.

    If the situation was Phillie when they traded AI for Andre Miller, I'd do it. And it still may end up that way, a bunch of young athletic guys who need a pure experienced point to lead them, but right now it doesn't make sense to me.

    My answer is this, I would say no, I would not trade the #11 pick for Henrick and his 4 years to maintain a semblence of mediocrity.

    Talk to me tomorrow I may feel differently.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
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    Woah, woah, woah. This will not be a great defensive team after that trade. It might appear a little better because of the major increase in perimeter defense, but you're also trading our best post defender away.

    Now, if you're comparing the post-trade team to the JO-less team, then yes that's big improvement. I really don't want Hughes, though. It'd be nice if we got their 2009 first rounder for taking him.
    I agree, a little better defensively.

    I think that is what I want the next 3 years with every move they make, how does this make us better DEFENSIVELY.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    I am a big fan of Hinrich and I have always stated that we need to improve our defense. We scored a lot last season but we let our opponents score more. Something like:
    Tinsley, Daniels, Dunleavy and 2nd Rounder for Nocioni and Hinrich.

    Then hopefully pick some someone like Frye for Shawne Williams and Harrison

    We could have a starting 5 of:
    Hinrich
    Granger
    Nocioni
    Frye
    O'Neal

    Hinrich, Granger and Nocioni would be one of the best defensive back courts in the league. Another important aspect of these trade is that getting rid of Daniels, Tins, Williams and Harrison would fix our "thug" image. Plus we still keep our first round pick this year where we can hopefully pick up Love. And if JO doesnt heal fom his injury he'll be a good expirer for us
    Last edited by MillerTime; 05-21-2008 at 10:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    I took the thinking to be that we could trade a bum for bums--isn't that what Kirk, Hughes, and JO are considered to be? Trade garbage and hope they play better in a new situation, I guess.
    JO & Hughes maybe. Hinrich didn't have a great year last season but I don't think they've given up on him.

    Of course Chicago needs a coach first.
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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    If they go with Rose, I think that a Hughes/Hinrich for JO trade makes sense for the Bulls.

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    If they go with Rose, I think that a Hughes/Hinrich for JO trade makes sense for the Bulls.
    ya it makes sense for the Bulls, but what are we going to do with Hughes? Just another Daniels kind of swingman. Where are you going to fit him into the rotation? Granger, Dunleavy, Williams, Daniels, Graham, and if we re-sign, then add Rush. We're in the need of a post player. And I dont like the mentality/attitude that Hughes will bring in. We already have a bad image

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    There's a reason Hinrich was being talked about as possible trade bait
    even before the chance to draft Rose came last night. He's not a
    natural PG. He struggles to beat guys off the bounce, etc. Sure,
    he's better than Diener. But at $10mil per for the next 4 yrs,
    MurphLeavy on the books at the same coin and DG poised to
    join them very soon, I'd pass on Hinrich unless the rest of the
    deal is just irresistable.

    With the Pacers' salary structure, I wouldn't pay a PG $10mil per
    unless he's a pure PG who has the skill-set to get everything
    done we need at the position. I don't see Hinrich as that guy.

  22. #22
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah Brown View Post
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    There's a reason Hinrich was being talked about as possible trade bait
    even before the chance to draft Rose came last night. He's not a
    natural PG. He struggles to beat guys off the bounce, etc. Sure,
    he's better than Diener. But at $10mil per for the next 4 yrs,
    MurphLeavy on the books at the same coin and DG poised to
    join them very soon, I'd pass on Hinrich unless the rest of the
    deal is just irresistable.

    With the Pacers' salary structure, I wouldn't pay a PG $10mil per
    unless he's a pure PG who has the skill-set to get everything
    done we need at the position. I don't see Hinrich as that guy.
    Those are very valid criticisms of Kirk. But he does run the pick and roll very, very well (he's not Chris Paul or close to him, but Kirk is tough to guard in pick and rolls) He also is an excellent defender, can also guard a lot of the shooting guards as well. Plus in the system the Pacers ran last season I think Kirk would excel
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 05-21-2008 at 12:01 PM.

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    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    How about Hinrich and Gooden for JO?

    Would you do it and would the Bulls?

    Hughes would be nice for the expiring (13 mil), Gooden is expiring too at 7 mil but is a good post threat.

    Hughes seems like a overpaid Daniels who likes to shoot too many 3s - poor shot selection, athletic, lots of to's and dumb plays, but when he's on (which isn't often enough), he's like Arenas.

    pacers:
    hinrich
    dun
    granger
    gooden
    foster/murphy

    bench:tinsley, shawne, ike, murphy/foster, diener, graham


    bulls:
    rose
    hughes
    noc
    JO
    noah

    bench: gordon, deng, duhon, gray, sef, thomas

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Hinrich

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    Default Re: Kirk Hinrich or draft a point guard

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    If they go with Rose, I think that a Hughes/Hinrich for JO trade makes sense for the Bulls.
    thats a LOT of contract for use to take back though. we'd be more inclined to do a gooden/hinrich deal and that wouldn't be bad for the bulls either (as they'd keep thomas, noah and gray to rotate with o'neal). i think we'd only take hughes if we dumped tinsley in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Those are very valid criticism of Kirk. But he does run the pick and roll very, very well (he's not Chris Paul or close to him, but Kirk is tough to guard in pick and rolls) He also is an excellent defender, can also guard a lot of the shooting guards as well. Plus in the system the Pacers ran last season I think Kirk would excel
    this is one thing i think is the key: the pacers don't really need a pure PG. they need someone who can handle the ball well enough to initiate the offense AND they need someone to be the first line of the harter defense -- 3PT shooting would be an added bonus. kirk has those three things. i don't think kirk is a great PG but i think he could fit here with o'brien.

    Quote Originally Posted by iPACER View Post
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    How about Hinrich and Gooden for JO?

    Would you do it and would the Bulls?

    Hughes would be nice for the expiring (13 mil), Gooden is expiring too at 7 mil but is a good post threat.
    hughes isn't expiring. he has two more years left at aprx $13mil each season.

    Quote Originally Posted by iPACER View Post
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    Hughes seems like a overpaid Daniels who likes to shoot too many 3s - poor shot selection, athletic, lots of to's and dumb plays, but when he's on (which isn't often enough), he's like Arenas.
    in theory our uptempo system would be better for hughes than cleveland. it'd be like his stay in DC. hughes also can be a decent perimeter defender.

    that being said, the thought of putting hughes in an offense that encourages a high volume of 3s frightens the crap out of me.
    Last edited by avoidingtheclowns; 05-21-2008 at 11:52 AM.
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